Conversion Possibilities

[JTodd]

I know there are many conversion / engine swap possibilites for the 6.5td, including the splayed main, et al setup RJ has. What are the plusses and minuses of each (Duramax, Schoolcraft and Cummins)? I am thinking conversion and maintenance costs, reasonable and usable power possibilities and fuel consumption and reasonable power levels.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[AndyL]

It does depend some. What are your fabrication skills? Do you have a secondardy vehicle to drive during the conversion?

The quickest and easiest is a new AMG drop in.

[JTodd]

I am just brainstorming, and not planning on a swap at this time. Just curious to the possibilities. For arguments sake, assume adequate fab skills and plenty of time.

[tommac95]

My take is that the indirect-injection (prechamber) engines are obsolete because the direct injection engines use less fuel-per-mile, and are easier on lube oil. But their cost includes an additional $8-12K surcharge merely for the engine's fuel system , tuff to recover.

The D-Max is a larger-output powerplant, requiring a larger-capacity transmixer, as a unit.

The Cummins is available in either species (direct/indirect) .

The 6.5 has substantial longevity issues in both block and head areas. The Cummins is superior here, but also occassionaly lose heads if not operated within some range of design limits.

Cummins requires major body lift, 6.5 doesn't....don't know about DMax.

[More Power]

The Optimizer 6500, as AMG now calls the 6.5L diesel, is essentially a new engine when compared to what it was in the 90's, brought about primarily by changes in head/block metallurgical composition and structural design, manufacturing processes and final assembly. And, there are yet more design changes in the offing that could totally revolutionize thinking about what the 6.5 is now and what it could be.

The high-end turbocharged AMG 6500 is currently rated for 205 hp & 440 lb-ft of torque, and is advertised as having a 250,000 mile durability rating, capable of meeting the 2007 EPA 50-state regs and has the lowest dollar per hp of any commercially produced diesel engine suitable for use in pickup trucks and SUV's.

If anyone is interested, I could work something up that discusses the original question posed in this thread. I've seen several GM/Cummins conversions, ridden in a couple, and I know a good bit about Duramax conversions.... :)

Jim

[JTodd]

The reason I originally brought it up are a couple of reasons. On this board and others various swaps are discussed and undertaken, and I am curious why one swap is chosen over another. Both the D-max and Cummins require significant fab and donor electronics, so neither are easy, but the power and efficencies seem to be significantly higher than the best possible from a 6.5.
If anyone is interested, I could work something up that discusses the original question posed in this thread. I've seen several GM/Cummins conversions, ridden in a couple, and I know a good bit about Duramax conversionsIf you can easily give the cliff-notes version, that would be fine for me.

Regarding the body lift, would a redesigned hood accomodate a cummins or are there other engine to body interference issues requiring the lift?

Thanks for the input.

[tommac95]

>>would a redesigned hood accomodate a cummins

Member (ex?) "DogDiesel" posted a blow-by-blow of his Cummins-into-Chevy conversion about two years ago somewhere on this site (probably 'members' , or '6.5L' ...?) ... and it was the sort of thing only someone with technical competence and decent facilities would be attracted to. ["No"].

[jspringator]

There is an ongoing thread regarding a Cummins 4BT conversion on a 93 at the Place. I would love this conversion; 300 HP possible with good gas mileage. Alas, I have an all electronic 99 which would make this conversion most difficult. I can dream, can't I?

[Heartbeat Hauler]

...If anyone is interested, I could work something up that discusses the original question posed in this thread. I've seen several GM/Cummins conversions, ridden in a couple, and I know a good bit about Duramax conversions.... :)
I wouldn't mind reading about a Optimizer 6.5 conversion to an older pickup, like say a '55 or '66 Chev. Maybe do an article on all of them (engines I mean), stuff like that is always good reading and motivation for creativity. My $.02 worth.
JP

[More Power]

Thanks for your input HH... :) I actually have quite a bit of brand new info about the AMG 6500 that could change the game... Some of the info hasn't been officially released yet....

As many of you know, this web site and a good share of the content we've produced through the years have been directed toward improving the ownership experience for owners of the 6.5L diesel - we've been doing it for more than 10 years now. No other web site was formed around these engines and their owners. The thought of removing a 6.5 to install something else has always given me pause - just seems wrong.

I think the Cummins is a fine engine, but I've yet to see a quality GM/Cummins conversion that I thought added value ("both" to the truck's usability/durability "and" for resale) beyond what it might have been with a "quality" 6.5. Used 5-10 year old Dodge/Cummins trucks are really cheap now. The motivation for converting a GM 6.5 truck to use a Cummins escapes me. If you want a Cummins, buying a Dodge would seem a no-brainer.... :D

Converting a 6.5 powered truck to use a Duramax is also a less than ideal solution for most people. It's complicated, but perhaps no more so than a common-rail Cummins conversion, and the Duramax fits waaayyy easier than a looonnnggg-ass 6-cyl Cummins. In fact, the Duramax "package footprint" was actually designed for the engine compartment of the GMT-400 body style trucks. The truck I converted was originally equipped with a 5.7L gas. I lost no sleep pulling it to install a GM diesel engine (though a Duramax).

Yes, a P7100 equipped Cummins is simpler (mechanically fuel injected), but for anyone who is hell-bent on converting, a Duramax conversion is far superior in my opinion - for a whole range of reasons (the biggest one being that it's still a GM engine).

A 4-cyl Cummins......:rolleyes: I couldahada V-8... ;)

JMHO... Yours may vary.... :)

Jim

[Cowracer]

Thanks for your input HH... :) I actually have quite a bit of brand new info about the AMG 6500 that could change the game... Some of the info hasn't been officially released yet....

As many of you know, this web site and a good share of the content we've produced through the years have been directed toward improving the ownership experience for owners of the 6.5L diesel - we've been doing it for more than 10 years now. No other web site was formed around these engines and their owners. The thought of removing a 6.5 to install something else has always given me pause - just seems wrong.

I think the Cummins is a fine engine, but I've yet to see a quality GM/Cummins conversion that I thought added value ("both" to the truck's usability/durability "and" for resale) beyond what it might have been with a "quality" 6.5. Used 5-10 year old Dodge/Cummins trucks are really cheap now. The motivation for converting a GM 6.5 truck to use a Cummins escapes me. If you want a Cummins, buying a Dodge would seem a no-brainer.... :D

Converting a 6.5 powered truck to use a Duramax is also a less than ideal solution for most people. It's complicated, but perhaps no more so than a common-rail Cummins conversion, and the Duramax fits waaayyy easier than a looonnnggg-ass 6-cyl Cummins. In fact, the Duramax "package footprint" was actually designed for the engine compartment of the GMT-400 body style trucks. The truck I converted was originally equipped with a 5.7L gas. I lost no sleep pulling it to install a GM diesel engine (though a Duramax).

Yes, a P7100 equipped Cummins is simpler (mechanically fuel injected), but for anyone who is hell-bent on converting, a Duramax conversion is far superior in my opinion - for a whole range of reasons (the biggest one being that it's still a GM engine).

A 4-cyl Cummins......:rolleyes: I couldahada V-8... ;)

JMHO... Yours may vary.... :)

Jim

I guess when you own the place you can get away using 'ass' in your posts. :D

on edit: Hey I just saw that my 'ass' went through too. How cool!

Tim

[ronniejoe]

I like it that bad language doesn't get used here much...

Let's keep it that way.

[More Power]

Language? :D Six years in the USN will expand one's vocab. :) Of course the calumnies, agitprop and jeremiads used on truck web sites also allow one to expand his interpretation of the human language.... ;)

I would enjoy doing another conversion project.... A 2003 or newer 2500 Dodge converted using a Duramax/Allison and 4WD front IFS... :D (I would likely have to run it through the armor upfitting line at AMG before driving it... :p )

MP

[ronniejoe]

I understand. Football locker rooms and factory floors are good places to expand vocabulary as well. I just prefer not to use it and like it that this site doesn't have much of that.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

I can't WAIT for more info about this Optimizer 6500. :D

I'm a prude - I agree with RJ. That's why I spend my time here instead of some other Place.

"Six years in the USN will expand one's vocab." So can working on cars, at least when it's me. My kids have heard things come out of my mouth that I'm ashamed of... I spent a couple years teaching myself those words, & the rest of my life trying to quit. :(

Blessings!

[Cowracer]

I dont smoke, do drugs, chase women, gamble (Much) or drink to excess. I get to have ONE vice, and I choose language.

I have been told I can strip paint when agitated. Grandpa taught me to curse in german and russian. Russian is a great language in which to curse. You can bruise innocent bystanders with it.

Of course, There are times it helps to keep a civil tounge in your head.

Tim

[16gaSxS]

For the most part I agree with most of what Jim said about conversions. I don't see the reason for going to 5.9L Cummins when a good engine can be had in a drop in situation with say 6.5T. I have a 1971 Ford Bronco with a V-8 302 in it. The darn thing loves it's gas. Now I've run across a guy who dropped a 3.9L Cummins in an EB (early Bronco) and he has all the power he needs and get 28 mpg's mixed driving. With the 32 gallons of tanks I have on mine that would give me about a 900 mile range more than double what I have now. I think a 6.5TD would be a tight fit in the old EB but I think a 3.9 would tuck in very nice from the photo's I have seen. In fact I have located a 3.9L enionge and 5 speed OD tranny 3 hours away. I'm thinking real hard about it.

[More Power]

Marty.... "most of what Jim said...." I'm hurt :D

Actually, the following quote, found on the site's home page, is TDP's mission statement:



The Diesel Page is a membership based web magazine and enthusiast group, which has focused on the General Motors light-truck 6.2L, 6.5L and the Duramax 6600 diesel engines since 1996.
We'll help you maintain and repair your 6.2, 6.5 or Duramax diesel engine, find solutions for diesel fuel injection problems, increase performance, locate the best and least expensive parts sources, repair and upgrade the Chevrolet and GMC light-duty trucks, and we'll help improve your satisfaction in owning a General Motors 6.2L - 6.5L - 6.6L diesel powered light-truck.


Pulling a 6.5 from a GM vehicle to install a non GM diesel engine doesn't fit the mission..... ;)

Jim

[ronniejoe]

Pulling a 6.5 from a GM vehicle to install a non GM diesel engine doesn't fit the mission..... ;)

Hear! Hear!

[JTodd]

. . .repair and upgrade the Chevrolet and GMC light-duty trucksSome might interpret a swap as an upgrade.

Between the D-max and a Cummins, what are the realistic, usable power capabilites? Not for racing, but pulling loads easily and efficiently. I have seen 800hp injectors for the Cummins, but that does not mean it should be done. If the choice for a swap is a crate d-max and a crate 6BT, why (other than GM product) would someone choose one over the other? I have seen that some maintenance parts for the Cummins are quite expensive, but injectors seem to be an issue with the d-max. I am not preparing to do any swap of any time right now, just curious.

Incedently, it was asked if someone wanted a cummins, why not buy a Dodge. I like my Suburban, Dodge does not make one.

[trbankii]

Pulling a 6.5 from a GM vehicle to install a non GM diesel engine doesn't fit the mission..... ;)

What about stuffing a 6.5 into a non-GM vehicle? :)

[More Power]

If it promotes the 6.5 or GM diesel ownership in general.. You've got my vote! ;)

One of our members in Australia has made a living equipping Ford trucks with the 6.2 then the 6.5 diesel when it became available. Toyota Land Cruisers, Land Rovers and many other types of vehicles around the world are running the 6.5.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone new who comes to this web site for the first time, looking for help with his/her 6.5 or perhaps just wanting to learn more about the engine and related maintenance. How might they react to lots of BB talk and published articles about pulling the 6.5 to install a Cummins? How would promoting the Cummins as a replacement affect their 6.5 ownership.

As you'll read in the Rendezvous coverage in a few days, about 60% of the vehicles attending were 6.2/6.5. I know at least one of them had over 200,000 miles. One attending member owns both a 6.5 and a Duramax. He drove his 1992 6.5 from northern Alberta to attend. Many of these guys are true 6.5 enthusiasts. If ronniejoe attends the Pull-Off next week, we could see a new level of performance for the 6.5. http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/images/icons/icon14.gif

JTodd, Useable power... The 90's GMT-400 3500 series dually trucks were rated for up to 8500-lbs max towing capacity or about 17,000-lbs GCVW. A 400 RW horsepower Duramax won't break a sweat or lose any speed on any hill with that power and load. Want more? I've heard of Duramax's generating more than 900 RW. Once the aftermarket somewhat caught up to the Duramax potential, no Dodge has come close to running with the Duramax at our Pull-Off for the past 4 years.

Jim

PS - If anyone wants to discuss Cummins conversions, the "General Diesel" forum is there for you to do that. :)

[JTodd]

The 90's GMT-400 3500 series dually trucks were rated for up to 8500-lbs max towing capacity or about 17,000-lbs GCVW. A 400 RW horsepower Duramax won't break a sweat or lose any speed on any hill with that power and load. Want more? I've heard of Duramax's generating more than 900 RW.That is the kind of information I was looking for. Thank you. I did not want to get anyone bent out of shape, just looking for information.

[Heartbeat Hauler]

What about stuffing a 6.5 into a non-GM vehicle? :)
How cool would a 6.5 in an old Land Rover Defender be? I would definitely dig that!!!:D


JP

[JeffsTowTruck]

I have been wondering if you buy a Wrecked or Salvage complete DMAX truck. Would having all the wires and computor box make it an easy swap into a 90's CK pickup???? MP just said it is complicated. That was my fear.

[JeepSJ]

What about stuffing a 6.5 into a non-GM vehicle? :)

They let me hang out here, so it couldn't be that bad.:D

[Cowracer]

As far as conversions go, I just cant stop thinking that a cummins 4bt in an s-10 blazer would be quite a rig.

Tim

[16gaSxS]

Marty.... "most of what Jim said...." I'm hurt :D


Jim

Sorry;:( I just don't think I could shoehorn a 6.5TD in my old Bronco, and I thinkthe 6.5 would be much more Engine than the litttle EB would need. In reality the MOST COST EFFECTIVE thing is simply to keep the 302 and hose it full of GASOLINE when needed as I drive it so little, it's mostly a Ranch vehical and bit of Hunting. I have only got it stuck once real good and that was 300 yards from the house, I almost got my tractor stuck retrieving it!!!!

[ColstripMike]

Hello All!
I originally joined this merry little band in March '06, looking for info on the possibility of swapping a diesel (6BT as used by Dodge was the original idea) into where an L34 Vortec 350 currently lives in a '01 Chevy 3500 van. I've revised this into a 6.5TD if I could find one in decent shape, since much of the fabrication would be similar to putting a Big Block Chevy in...i.e., not much except making sure you have the right mounts. No body lift (imagine a lift for a long wb van!), no big frame mods, etc.
Well, long story short, in the current 21 Dec 06 Thrifty Nickel (Southern Montana free advertiser paper...Herr Doktor Administrator Jim probably has seen it too), there's a '93 1 ton truck being parted out which has a 6.5 in it; got to be a TD although the ad doesn't specify. In the opinion of the group is this worth looking into? I found this after I started night shift, during the Christmas holiday, and I'll be calling probably 26 Dec. Worth pursuing??

Mike

[Robyn]

Just a couple things here.

It has always seemed odd to me that some of the 6.5's will run 250K and beyond without a hitch and others fail at less than 100K

One of the biggest issues about swaps I have seen has always been the quality of the swap and then the resale value of the finished product.

Many of us have done swaps and had very good luck with them.
I stuffed a 427 cammer in a then new ford F250 4X4 back in 76 to replace a very anemic 360 OMG what an animal that was.

The truck served me well and the cammer itself was worth the price I sold the truck for in 1989.

I did a 455 olds swap into a 1981 GMC 4X4 for a neighbor and it served him well for years.

Now I dont want to hurt any feelers here but the Dodge cummins combo is OK
The engine is fine but the trucks leave a lot to be desired as compared to our GMs
I owned a 95 Dodge with a V10 and then one with a Cummins, Both ran well and worked hard but were no match to the GM as far as creature comforts goes.

As some of you know I am in the process of trying to get a 6.5 TD together for my 91 Burb.
I have already had two fellows trying to get me to install a 4BT cummins in my Burb.

Taint Gonna happen. 6.5 or maybe a 6.2 Turbo is gonna go in the Burb.
I guess I feel the same way, Just aint right to stuff anything else in there.

[Robyn]

I have seen a 6.2 in a Jeep wrangler and a 6.5 TD in a Corvette.

IMHO if you like the idea and are bankrolling it, have fun and enjoy your creation.

Seen a Hemi once in the back seat of a corvair convertible, now that was a real abortion.
It had a Olds Toronado front drive setup in there with that elephant motor bolted up.

In my travels I have seen a lot of wild and wonderful stuff.
Saw a 1985 Peterbilt with a 3412 cat under the hood too and that I had to ask WHY??
Same with an Auto car with a 16V71 Detroit. Hmmmmm at todays fuel costs????????????????????????????????$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The one thing that made it all ok was the creators of all those beasts were just happy as clams with their creations.

[trbankii]

there's a '93 1 ton truck being parted out which has a 6.5 in it; got to be a TD although the ad doesn't specify. In the opinion of the group is this worth looking into?

Well, that would be a mechanical 6.5 as opposed to the electrical version that came later. Make for a little easier swap than doping out computer stuff!

[trbankii]

The one thing that made it all ok was the creators of all those beasts were just happy as clams with their creations.

I think that is the real secret to any swap. Unless you have been hired to do the swap for someone, you likely aren't going to make money on the deal if you plan to sell it later on. If you're looking to have fun doing the swap for the sake of doing it for your own personal use or just want to have something different, definitely go for it!

[a5150nut]

Saw a 1985 Peterbilt with a 3412 cat under the hood too and that I had to ask WHY??

The truck wasn't from Klamath Beach Ca area was it? Former loging truck converted to dump truck...........If it was I drove it once. No lacking for power. All the others had to shift up and down on the job site. Not that one just pick a gear and it would climb any hill there.

[ColstripMike]

Well, that would be a mechanical 6.5 as opposed to the electrical version that came later. Make for a little easier swap than doping out computer stuff!

That's the kind of thing I was looking for...I intend to keep this van of mine until it falls apart the last time; THEN I might consider trading. Not because I like the thing (though I do like it!), but because it works for me and my family better than the last try at a family car, a '94 F-250 Supercab (460 with tow package). Also, I can't bring myself to get into another vehicle payment situation again. Too painful!!
It'd be nice to have some extra money in the checking account for a while, too. Who knows, I might even get some cards paid off!
It'd also be nice to get better mileage...the best the 460 ever got on the road was about 12.7, and the 350 in the van will pull about 13.8 pretty regularly at 66-68 mph.
Anyway, thanks for the input so far.

Mike

[More Power]

I had read where the GM 10-1/2" FF ring and pinion are virtually as strong as GM's newest AAM-1150. The AAM-1150's rear pinion bearing is ahead of the gears, where the 10-1/2 rear pinion bearing is behind. The GM 10-1/2" 14-bolt axle has held up well behind a beefed Cummins - the NV4500 is another story.

Where the AAM1150 is better is in GAWR, its larger mass and larger lube capacity. This might mean it would be better at handling higher loads for longer durations in high heat environments.

Jim

[JohnC]

...The AAM-1150's rear pinion bearing is ahead of the gears, where the 10-1/2 rear pinion bearing is behind....

OK, I'm trying to picture this, but it just isn't coming into focus. How about a more detailed description?

[JeepSJ]

OK, I'm trying to picture this, but it just isn't coming into focus. How about a more detailed description?

Picture if you will, the image of a pinion gear. On most setups, the two bearings that support the pinion are both located on one side of the gear itself. On the 1150, they moved one bearing to the other side of the gear.

Look at this pic -
http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/images/product//currie/CE990457SP.jpg
This is for a Ford 9". See the little stub on the pinion? That is the extra bearing support, similar to what the 1150 has.

[gvig]

Pardon, a little comment here.

Actually it would be more proper to say that on the Ford 9 inch and perhaps the 1150 in question, a bearing was not moved to the other side of the pinion, as the two main cone style bearings still are on the outboard side of the pinion and there cage a crush sleeve that determines preload and a third needle roller bearing that provides additional support was added to the inboard end of the pinion. And yes, it is a much more substantial design.

[More Power]

Here's a shot of an AAM1150 rear axle housing with the ring gear and differential carrier removed. You can see that there is no bearing behind the pinion gear. There is on GM's 10-1/2" 14-bolt pinion.

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/AAM1150housing.jpg

[gvig]

Oops:D

I should have read MorePowers posting closer before commenting.

Upon rereading, I see where he said, the 10 1/2 inch FF is VIRTUALLY as strong as the AAM 1150 is.

In my years of drag racing, Fords, the only part of the driveline I never was able to destroy or damage was the 9 inch differential. Ford has the third bearing for additional support located at the rear of the pinion. Saw many of my Chevy racing friends destroy their differential gears which were the two bearing design. That always made me think the three bearing design to be stronger. Perhaps metalurgy and design has improved:)

High torque diesels sure require a different approach than gassers.

[JohnC]

OK, third bearing I can swallow. I was having problems with one in front and one behind. Anyone have a picture of the 10.5 pinion housing?

(Actually, I have a whole axle sitting on the floor in the other room; guess I should pull the cover and look for myself...)

Back in the early '80's I used to race SAAB turbos. The transaxle had an aluminum pinion housing. The bearing closest to the gear was cantelevered away from the case. We were developing enough torque to break the housings with great regularity. Once the pinion moved, the whole transaxle blew apart....

Solution was a custom machined $teel pinion hou$ing.