View Full Version : Dmax into 93 Crew
Just got home with a Dmax/Allison that came out of a freight damaged 05 truck (zero miles). Scary to think what's ahead but I'm in no hurry. It's going into my 93 that was originally a 454, converted to 6.5 before I purchased it, seized due to STUPID quick release oil line popping off.
It has all accessories, Allison attached, wiring harness including cab fuse box, complete dash (except stereo), computers, rad, intercooler with piping, exhaust downpipe, transfer case, front d-shaft, and fuel tank. I know there's more I'll need but I think it's a good start. I'd have liked to have the whole truck but this was affordable.
Part of the reason for starting the post is to share info with anyone else whose doing this and get help from those who've done it. I have Jim's book of course and am sure it'll be a huge help.
A couple things I have to work out are the dash, steering column, and tranny linkage. I understand the 05 dash would be tough to mod for the 93 but somewhere between (98 - 01?) would go in and accept the 05 instrument panel? Does this sound right?
Maybe an 05 steering column for the linkage? I guess there will be wiring issues for the ignition wipers, cruise.
I won't really get into it until fall but would like to scout for the extra parts I'll need.
Any others out there with a conversion disorder? :}
More Power
06-12-2006, 22:44
I recommend a 1995-98 style dash, along with the internal dash supports and related vent/defroster ducting. Should be fairly inexpensive, and widely available from just about any salvage yard.
Jim
Thanks Jim.
Looks like there's not too many on the forum doing this at the moment. I'm hoping there will be others so I don't have to bug you too much with these questions.
Given that I'm switching from manual to auto I'll need to change to a steering column with auto linkage. I'm guessing the linkage for the Alison differs from the GM automatics. Do you know what year range would be best?
Can anyone recommend an engine leveler and tell me where to connect to the blocks of the Duramax and the 6.5? I guess a repair manual would say but I don't have one for the Duramax yet and I want to get it off my trailer.
More Power
06-17-2006, 14:35
Get a complete steering column assembly matching the model year of your engine package. This column will fit the 1995-98 style dash, and will make a conversion easier by providing the correct electrical interface and trans shifting.
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/dmaxlift03.jpg
The brackets in the above photo are the factory engine lift brackets shipped with all of the Duramax engines when the y leave the DMAX facility in Ohio. The larger one on the left is bolted to the rear passenger side of the engine, and the smaller bracket is bolted to the engine just outboard of the A/C compressor.
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/dmaxlift02.jpg
The above photo shows the front engine lift bracket in the approximate position where it is bolted onto the engine.
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/dmaxlift01.jpg
The above photo shows the factory rear lift bracket used to install/remove the engine in a vehicle. Your engine should have this bracket.
Jim
Thanks again, especially for taking the time for the photos.
It seems there's some differences between the years. The front driver side mount point is the same. The rear passenger mount looks different. I included a photo of mine. Sorry I don't know how to paste it here, it's in the photo album titled "lift point".
It looks like the person removing the engine tried to lift it with one bolt in the front lift point as there's a broken bolt in one of the two threaded holes. I wondered about lifting on the accessory frame but it actually looks very strong.
You can see in my picture there's an exhaust pipe with water cooling shroud running forward that I don't see in your pics, and yours appears to have a vacuum operated boost control rod, mine has an electric motor control. I've ordered a service manual and look forward to learning more about the motor.
I'm going to try to round up brackets. Maybe a dealer has spares from engine replacements. If not I can fabricate something without too much trouble.
With the tranny in place it would be a lot of weight on the rear lift point. It would be a shear force, not tension on the bolt and the bracket looks plenty strong so maybe it's OK. I'll have to decide whether to separate them. It would be rather nice if they could remain intact.
I'm going to document with photos as I go so I can be of help if someone else starts a similar project.
OK I'm getting started on the conversion. My 6.5 engine and drivetrain are out. It'll be interesting to look inside the engine. I expect I can sell some parts like the injector pump, nv4500 5 speed and transfer case. I fabricated some lift brackets that work fine lifting the Duramax/Allison except that the weight caused my hoist wheels to sink into my asphalt driveway! I think I'll need to separate them for the install.
I'll be buying a 2001 or newer steering column and linkage to fit the Allison from Spalding in Spokane (I'm 20 min away).
Jim, you recommended a 95-98 dash, but in your conversion maunual a 2001 dash was modified to fit your 88 - 98 truck.
I want to use the 05 instrument cluster I have. Your manual indicates that this intrument cluster would fit with fairly minor modification in a 95-98 dash so this should be OK.
Here's my questions:
Do you know if the 95-98 transfer case switches will interface OK with the 2005 transfer case?
Does the 95-98 dash bolt in without mods and is that why you recommend this over modifying my 05 unit as you did?
Thanks
Arlie
(Anyone else out there doing this?)
Quietman LBZ
09-16-2006, 15:34
This is a great project that you are going for! You must have the time and the guts to take this on. Bravo! Please take step by step photos as those will be of great value in the future. If you are anal like I am you might keep a journal. I have not done anything like this since putting a 427 in a 57 Chevy years ago. That was a simple project in comparison to all of the technical details that you must tend to.
The longest journeys begin with a single step.
Best Regards for your project.
Jim
Houston, Texas
trbankii
09-16-2006, 18:27
Will be following your progress. Best of luck!
Out of curiosity, I've heard tales of these "freight damaged vehicles" but where does one go to find one?
Yes it will be quite a project. Jim has blazed a trail and produced quite a nice manual to follow. Without that I would not have taken it on. I also recently built a home with a shop separate from my garage, and I have no pressured time line so I think I can enjoy this one.
I'm taking some pics and will document things that will supplement what Jim has produced. I hope someone else will join in!
I got the powetrain from a guy in Seattle who changed his mind about doing a retrofit of a much older vehicle. He got it from a salvager in Minnesota who at the time was selling online, I think on Ebay.
Right now I'm considering upgrading the entire interior. Mine is quite plain with a vinyl bench seat and the headliner's falling down. Since I'm changing the dash, I'll see if I can get the rest of the interior to match. That is if it fits. I think interiors would interchange up to 2000 but have to verify that. Crew cab stuff is a little scarce.
More Power
09-17-2006, 00:30
Here's my questions:
Do you know if the 95-98 transfer case switches will interface OK with the 2005 transfer case?
Does the 95-98 dash bolt in without mods and is that why you recommend this over modifying my 05 unit as you did?
I don't know if the 95-98 4WD switch would work with the 2001+ HD transfer case. I doubt it. You may be able to operate the HD pushbutton transfer case manually by simply replacing the electric servo module with a lever linkage- but I'd recommend verifying before committing to it.
Of course there'll be some mods when installing a 95-98 dash in your '93. But it'll be a whole lot easier than a 2001+ dash.... :) The 95-98 dash uses a cross-bar that runs side to side beneath the dash to provide support for the dash. Your 93 doesn't have one. The 95-98 factory cross-bar will likely bolt in with minor mods.
Jim
Thanks Jim.
Because you have the experience, I think I'll take your advise. I do wonder though, is your recommendation purely intended to save time and effort or do you think there will be a better end result?
I'm belaboring this one a bit as I see it as the most important decision in the project. The actual installation of the powertrain does not present much in the way of choices. This option entails mating the 05 powertrain wiring harness with a 95-98 dash, and this dash to a 93 truck. Maybe less work than using the 05 dash but It's kind of "no man's land" since it's not described in your manual. I'm not afraid to improvise but experience has also taught me to be careful about re-inventing wheels. I'm sure you've factored this in your advise, so likely I'll be "going where no man has gone before". :)
Arlie
More Power
09-18-2006, 23:24
Arlie, DmaxMaverick is parting out a 1995 K1500 pickup, and is advertising in the classified ad forum. I'd bet you could get a sweet deal on the dash/door panels/etc.
I recommend using a 1995-98 dash because it would be so much easier. It took me more than a month of evenings and weekends to get the 2001 dash in. A weekend should be enough time to swap in a 95 model-year dash.
However, I've had the truck to a few auto shows, and to the non-diesel enthusiast crowd, the dash drew more attention than any other modification or truck feature.
The choice is yours.... Lotsa work or not quite so much....:D
Jim
Thanks Jim.
I've left a message with DmaxMaverick regarding the parts.
Maybe if I can get a picture of the front and back of the door panels I can figure out if they'll fit.
Arlie
DmaxMaverick
09-19-2006, 08:22
I replied to your PM, and will get some pic's up today. The sheet metal between the 93 and 95 didn't change much, if any, so the door panels should work with little or no modification. The door handles are different, but all the hardware is there, and even has new(er) inside handles (which are break-prone). I'll provide what you need for it. I haven't pulled a panel, but will for the pic's. Give me a little time, and I should have the pic's up by tonight.
DmaxMaverick and I are trying to figure out if door panels, power windows & locks will interchange between 93 and 95. Pics are posted in our galleries of the doors with panels off. It appears there is some sheet metal difference above the door handles.
Anyone have experience with this?
Arlie
More Power
09-23-2006, 12:07
Through the years I have seen numerous photos of GM truck interiors with captions in various truck mags that indicated the owner upgraded the interior of his 1988-94 truck with 1995 or newer dashes and door panels. I would venture a guess that the swap isn't too difficult.
Jim
Thanks Jim. We're thinking along those lines. It would be nice to hear from someone who had done it but if not, I plan to go ahead and give it a shot anyway.
For anyone interested, I posted pics of the lift brackets I fabricated for the Dmax with Allison attached. It's a heavy combo (my hoist wheels sunk into my asphalt) and these held up fine but there was a little pucker factor going on and I can't say I'm completely comfortable recommending this approach. They have to be split anyway so I'd recommend lifting them separately unless you have the factory brackets.
Arlie
Before I get the engine in, I want to do a 1" body lift since Jim's experience indicates that would make the fan line up, thereby requiring no fan trimming.
My research shows no 1" lifts for sale. They start at 2". I think 2" would defeat my purpose.Being a Canadian, hockey pucks came to mind. They are 1" thick by 3" diameter vulcanized rubber. I also thought of buying a 2" or 3" kit and cutting the nylon spacers down. Then I'd have the other hardware bits and intruction set that comes with it.
I'm also considering a small suspension lift so I can increase tire size. Mainly this would be for looks, but I'm also geared low and might improve economy with a taller tire.
Any suggestions here would be appreciated. I don't want a monster, I just don't like the small tires, especially on a 4x4 crew.
Anyone got pics of their rig that fits this description with the lift and tire/wheel details used to create it?
Also, still hoping for someone who has put 88-93 door panels into a 95-98.
Arlie
DmaxMaverick
09-24-2006, 10:10
The 2001-current 2500HD's and 3500's (2wd and 4wd) have an OEM 2" body lift. This was primarily to accomodate the Allison tranny.
I suggest a 2" body lift. If you need the pucks, you could use current OEM's. I don't think 1" would be worth messing with. Yours being a 4x4, it wouldn't hurt to be a little higher, but just the same, you wouldn't notice the difference between 1" and 2". Another reason is the PTO. The Allison tranny has PTO capability (left or right side), but can't be accessed with too little clearance. If there is any possibility you may consider using the PTO in the future, more lift now would be in your best interest.
Another possibility is the Classic 3500HD. They also have a body lift, and all the parts will match up to your truck.
More Power
09-25-2006, 09:26
Lill Red doesn't have any sort of lift. However, a 1" lift would help with engine clearance, and would be best for those who want to their truck to remain close to stock in appearance. You could have aluminum spacers machined for not a lot. 1" lift would make it easier to get the engine fan exactly centered in the fan shroud and provide a little more under-hood clearance. A lift of any sort is not necessary just for the Allison.
Incidentally, the LB7 fits the 1988-98 C/K easier than an LLY or LBZ, because the air intake & IC components sit higher on the later engines (reducing hood clearance).
Jim
Thanks for the replies.
Say I go with a 2" lift. I presume something is done with the fan shroud? I also wonder about the steering column, brake lines, sway bars, bumpers etc. I guess if I got a kit it would explain all this.
I'm puzzled with the higher lifts how the shroud is made to fit.
Arlie
DmaxMaverick
09-25-2006, 14:44
Frame lifts and body lifts are different. A body lift doesn't effect the suspension, but will effect the steering column and fan allignment. A frame lift will not effect the column and fan, but will effect the suspension/steering components. A 1-2" body lift shouldn't cause any issues with the column. More than that, and it could. If you buy a "kit", it should advise you of issues. If you build your own "kit", trial and error and advice of others will be your guide.
More Power
09-25-2006, 14:53
Look at the pic at the bottom of page 6 in the conversion guide. That picture shows how much of a body lift is required to center the fan in the fan shroud. Going with more lift (say 2") would require fan shroud mods.
Jim
I think I'll buy a 2" kit, look things over and then decide if I'll cut it down to 1". The kits aren't that expensive and I think the installation instructions will be helpful as long as they're not in Chinese. :)
I guess I can just look through the picture gallery for rigs that have the appearance I'm after and ask questions regarding tire sizes and required lift. This may also help decide whether to cut it down or not.
Anyone got any suggestions for a lift kit brand name with good instructions?
Arlie
I'm planning to buy from performance accessories.
Just thought I'd post to see if there's any bad experience with them, or a better manufacturer.
I decided to do the 3 inch just to give more tire options. Can't think of a good reason not to.
Arlie
More Power
10-30-2006, 10:13
A 3" (or any lift more than 1") will require fan shroud mods. Though it'll improve hood clearance, front diff clearance (assuming a relocated [lowered] diff) and add trans tunnel clearance.
More hood clearance might be necessary for the LLY/LBZ, due to increases in the height of the intake & stuff on top of the engine.
Jim
PA seems to be the biggest selling kit out there. I installed A LOT of those back in my 4x4 mechanic days. I got to the point where I could install one myself in about 2 1/2 hours. If it is your first time, plan on a full day. With a 3 inch, you will need to modify the fan shroud. Also watch for stretching wires and fuel lines between the body and frame, and brake lines between the master cyl and frame. You will also need to extend the steering shaft slightly.
Helpful hint - remove the body mount bolts on one side, but only LOOSEN them on the other side. Nothing sucks worse than jacking up one side of the cab or bed to install the blocks, and have it slide off the mounts! Install the blocks and start all the bolts, then remove the bolts from the other side and jack it up and install the blocks. Keep all the bolts on the cab and bed loose until all the blocks are installed, then you can shove things around to get the cab and bed relaligned with each other.
You should also consider replacing your body mounts with poly when you do this.
Jim,
I might be opening a can of worms here but I'm wondering if raising the engine an inch or so would be worthwhile by relieving differential interference. It would not be hard to modify the brackets. I have the drawings waiting at the machine shop with two versions, one enlarged to allow moving the mount holes down an inch. Since I'm planning a 3 inch body lift, my hood will still be 2 inches higher than without a lift.
Another idea would be to raise the engine 2". This would still allow an inch of extra tunnel/hood clearance and the fan shroud should fit without a mod.
it'll improve hood clearance, front diff clearance (assuming a relocated [lowered] diff)
I wasn't sure what you mean here when you refer to a relocated diff.
JeepSJ,
Thanks, that helps.
Arlie
More Power
10-30-2006, 14:20
I was corresponding with a fellow recently who is considering installing a D/A in a 2001 Tahoe. In his case, he's already installed a 3" suspension lift and a 2" body lift. Suspension lifts usually include brackets that lower the front differential by the same amount as the lift in inches. So, lowering the front differential would provide even more clearance between the diff housing and the aluminum crankcase on the engine. The motor mount drawings in the book work with a factory differential location. :) The drawings also include info that is useful to correctly relocate the through-bolt position to raise/lower the engine (as you've discovered).
If you raise the engine, you should also raise the trans mount by approximately the same amount to maintain drivetrain angularity. By the way, the 4L80-E trans mount bolts right up to the Allison...
Jim
Ok I get it. I'm not really interested in a susp lift.
Would you hazard a guess as to how far one would need to raise the engine to avoid the diff interference requiring oil pan mod and diff brace removal?
(I won't hold you to anything) :)
Arlie
More Power
10-30-2006, 16:11
Would you hazard a guess as to how far one would need to raise the engine to avoid the diff interference requiring oil pan mod and diff brace removal?
(I won't hold you to anything) :)
You'll still have to do the oil pan mod even if the engine is raised (by any reasonable amount). The front diff bracket shown in the photos can probably be left untouched if you deepen the divot in the oil pan (roughly double it), which might reduce oil pan capacity by about a pint or a little more (it's a 10 qt capacity engine).
Jim
Thanks Jim. My plan will be to raise the engine an inch from your design, lift the body 3 inches and hope I can mod the oil pan to avoid diff bracket removal and be able to close the hood. If necessary I'll get an aftermarket hood like your project truck
Or put some rad scoop on it that says Dmaxinator (not). :D
Arlie
The Performance Accessories catalogue indicates their lifts will not fit a diesel truck. I'm guessing it's something that can be overcome but wondering if anyone knows what does not fit.
Arlie
Arlie - got your PM.
Not sure why they say it won't fit the diesel. There isn't any difference in the body or the mounts between the gasser and diesel. All I can think is maybe the inner fender would hit the turbo when you lift the body? I can't think of any other places where there would be a problem.
Mark
More Power
11-08-2006, 09:14
The Performance Accessories catalogue indicates their lifts will not fit a diesel truck.
Hydraulic brake booster lines wind up being too short? If that's not it, I can't imagine what the difference is between the gas/diesel.
Jim
trbankii
11-08-2006, 10:57
I can't imagine what the difference is between the gas/diesel.
Could it be block weight?
Thanks for the replies. :)
I got a reply from customer service at Performance Accessories which clarifies things.
I don't think it will be an issue with the Dmax. Maybe with the 6.5 but more than anything I think they were covering their butts (understandable with the 6.5). Kinda interesting though.
Arlie
Arlie, The major problem with the early diesel engines was that they tend to run hot. When you lift the body, it reduces the effective swept area of the radiator. This increases the chance of overheating. With the engine change you are planning, other issues may surface, such as location of the intercooler for the turbo, radiator size, oil cooler lines, etc. If you cannot find a local dealer for the kit, try Summit Racing, Stylin' Concepts, 4 Wheel Parts, or Quadratec, among numerous other catalog outlets.
Hi Jim,
I've made some progress on my project and have a question about the washer fluid reservoir. It appears you mounted your fuse block where my reservoir sits on the driver fender well. So did you move your reservoir?
Another issue, I dont' have an electronic throttle, I guess because it's a 93 with mechanical injection. I guess I'll need one. I note you used a 6.5 version, but maybe I can find a used Dmax unit.
I'm thinking my mechanical cruise control will also need to be replaced?
I'm waiting for delivery of a 98 dash and HVAC unit. I have an 05 dash and all the wiring. I'm thinking of using the wiring from the 05, and adapting it to the 98 dash. Does this sound sensible to you?
Here's a couple things of note. With raising the engine 1" from your design (plus 2" body lift) I do not require any oil pan mod. I also did not need to trim the transfer case. Also, I did not need to relocate the transmission crossmember. :)
I did have to cut a hole in the floor pan under the driver seat to get the transfer case in place. There's lots of clearance once it's in but getting it over the crossmember was impossible without a hole cut. No biggy, I'll just weld a patch in. One good thing, I found surface rust needing to be addressed under the floor covering when I pulled it back.
I'm finding the manual very helpful. Thanks for any further suggestions you may have.
Arlie
More Power
01-03-2007, 22:35
I haven't installed a windshield washer bottle yet.... :o The wiring is all there to connect the low fluid level indicator and for the pump. I thought about getting a late 90's or 2001+ washer bottle to try mounting ahead of the driver's side battery - just like the new trucks, but didn't quite get there yet... I haven't driven it in the rain - much... :D
A 1994-98 APP electronic accelerator pedal will bolt right onto where your mechanical pedal is now. That's why I spent the time to see whether the 6.5 pedal assy would work (it's easier than fabricating in a GMT-800 pedal assy). The 6.5 pedal assy works well with just a couple wire swaps in the harness.
The cruise control is electronic, so yes, you'll not need any of the truck's original components - though you should save everything. Someone will need them here in TDP for a repair/retrofit using a 6.5.
Yes, I'd probably try adapting the new under-dash harness to the 90's dash.
I needed to relocate the trans crossmember primarily because I was replacing a TH700R4 with an Allison. The 4L80-E you have is longer - apparently about the same as an Allison. Has to be some luck in this...:)
Cutting the floor.... That's what I don't understand. I didn't need to, and I didn't use a body lift. What crossmember did you have to "get it over"? The transmission crossmember is easily removed for installation. The torsion bar crossmember stays in place during the R&R.
Sounds like progress!
Jim
PS: I'm moving this thread into the General Diesel forum.
I haven't installed a windshield washer bottle yet.... :o The wiring is all there to connect the low fluid level indicator and for the pump. I thought about getting a late 90's or 2001+ washer bottle to try mounting ahead of the driver's side battery - just like the new trucks, but didn't quite get there yet... I haven't driven it in the rain - much... :D
A 1994-98 APP electronic accelerator pedal will bolt right onto where your mechanical pedal is now. That's why I spent the time to see whether the 6.5 pedal assy would work (it's easier than fabricating in a GMT-800 pedal assy). The 6.5 pedal assy works well with just a couple wire swaps in the harness.
The cruise control is electronic, so yes, you'll not need any of the truck's original components - though you should save everything. Someone will need them here in TDP for a repair/retrofit using a 6.5.
Yes, I'd probably try adapting the new under-dash harness to the 90's dash.
I needed to relocate the trans crossmember primarily because I was replacing a TH700R4 with an Allison. The 4L80-E you have is longer - apparently about the same as an Allison. Has to be some luck in this...:)
Cutting the floor.... That's what I don't understand. I didn't need to, and I didn't use a body lift. What crossmember did you have to "get it over"? The transmission crossmember is easily removed for installation. The torsion bar crossmember stays in place during the R&R.
Sounds like progress!
Jim
PS: I'm moving this thread into the General Diesel forum.
No washer fluid huh. I'm guessing this isn't your daily driver.:)
I'll be looking for a solution to that one.
So is the cruise built into the electronics so that I dont' need some kind of separate cruise control unit?
I'm replacing a 5 speed manual tranny, not an automatic. With the Allison in place, the transfer case has to slide over the torsion bar crossmember to mate up. I'm not sure if the TC has a little different shape or what but it would not line up while sitting on the crossmember without a cutout on the driver side. With the cutout it lines up, moves forward off the crossmember and rotates downward away from the floor pan so there's lots of clearance. Maybe the crew cab has a different shape to the floor pan.
Speaking of the transfer case, I'm hoping someone will discover what years have the "pump wearing through the case" problem and how to deal with it if it affects the 2005 models. You'd think since it showed up in 2001 models there may have been a design change.
Thanks for the support.
Arlie
More Power
01-04-2007, 11:44
With the cutout it lines up, moves forward off the crossmember and rotates downward away from the floor pan so there's lots of clearance. Maybe the crew cab has a different shape to the floor pan.
In my opinion, the newest NVG-261 & 263 transfer cases fit the GMT-400 (90s body style) floor pans as well as the NP-241 (which came stock in the 90s trucks) does.
When the Duramax, Allison and the transfer cases were designed, all GM Powertrain had to work with for package design was the GMT-400 trucks. GM produced at least a dozen test mules using the GMT-400 in the late 90s. It's no coincidence that items like the radiator (bolts right in), firewall shape & clearance for the rear mounted turbo and exhaust system, and even transfer case all match the GMT-400. The divot in the Duramax driver's side exhaust manifold is a perfect fit for the GMT-400 steering shaft. That divot isn't necessary in the GMT-800 trucks.
The Allison and the transfer case are installed in the truck as separate pieces. When doing this, I can't imagine there being a clearance problem, even without a body lift. Even more room with.
I've read where Eric Merchant gmdieseltech.com has a fix for the transfer case issue.
Jim
I guess there's two possible answers to the transfer case issue. One would be a fumble on my part in the attempt to wiggle it over the torsion bar crossmemeber into place. Or perhaps there are undiscovered factors at work. Either way it wasn't a big deal to make a cutout. I do plan to repair it in a way that leaves some space for future R&R.
At the moment I've got everything back out. My initial goal was to get my motor mount holes drilled with the engine and tranny in place to be sure the angles were right. Perhaps I was obsessing somewhat but since I modified your mount design to raise the engine an inch I wanted to be dead certain about the bolt hole placement.
I'm very pleased with the decision to raise it. With the tranny resting on the crossmember (using the 05 mount) the engine angle is within a couple degrees of the 6.5 setup. With it up an inch and a 2 inch body lift, (end result engine 1 inch lower relative to body compared to your design) I'm hoping the fan will center in the shroud. As noted I have no oilpan interference with the right engine support brace. I will need a replacement hood with more clearance.
I decided to remove the front rad support assembly to make things easier when I put it all back together (should have done this from the start). I should be able to put the engine and tranny in as a unit. Getting the tranny to mate with the engine working under the truck was a bear. When it's all back together I'll take some measurements in the transfer case and torsion bar area so you can compare if you're interested.
I'm now working on wiring. It was a little unnerving to rip out all the cab and under hood wiring. It will be "interesting" installing 05 wiring in a 93 truck and 98 dash/HVAC. I'm waiting for delivery of the dash/HVAC unit with a plan to have the HVAC in before re-installing the powetrain. Things get pretty tight under the hood once the Dmax is in.
As for a windsheild washer container, if I can't find one to fit under the driver battery, I think I'll make one to fit.
Arlie
More Power
01-06-2007, 12:56
I'm now working on wiring. It was a little unnerving to rip out all the cab and under hood wiring.
Getting over that psychological hurdle was what held up my project for about a year. Once I committed to it, the rest fell into place. :)
Save the old wiring & harnesses till after you're driving the truck and everything is working the way you want. You may need bits-n-pieces from the old harnesses to complete the project. The original small harness that fastens to your existing HVAC will remain on the HVAC unit. This harness connects to the fan motor, AC relays, and door motors.
The 2500/3500 frames and front suspension are a little wider in the engine bay (the wheel track is a little wider as well), when compared to the 1500 series trucks. This could account for your not having interference between the oil pan and the front axle mount.
Sounds like progress!
Jim
Makes sense about the oil pan. I have about a 1/2 inch of clearance so there would have been minor interference with it down an inch.
I saved all my wiring, with labels on the connections. I'm keeping all the old stuff until I've got the new system in place. I guess there will be some uncharted territory since I think you used the original HVAC. I presume you mounted the old controller into your 05 dash?
I have the factory fuel pump that I'm thinking of using to help with delivery through one of Greg's filters. I'll need to figure out the relays etc that make it work. Since I don't get the 200k injector warranty I'd like to protect them.
I noticed you have nice power seats. Are they original? I'd like to upgrade my bench front seat.
Arlie
Getting over that psychological hurdle was what held up my project for about a year. Once I committed to it, the rest fell into place. :)
I was thinking about that. If you had not blazed the trail I would not be a participant in this conversion craziness. At the moment I don't know if I should be thanking you. :D
(just kidding)
Today I took all the HVAC out. Lots of fun trying to figure out where they hid the fasteners... I had taken the air intake grill in front of the windshield off thinking I might find some there... nope but I sure got to clean out a load of pine needles so it wasn't wasted effort.
Hmm... Aha, behind the rad overflow tank!
Inexperience makes for such head scratching I think I'm getting a bald spot. :)
Arlie
I'm contemplating relocating the passenger side battery outside the engine bay so I can use the firewall area formerly occupied by the rad overflow for the windshield washer tank.
The current overflow tank has to be replaced by a pressurized version (looking for one of these). It seems this will mount best on the fenderwell like on a factory Dmax behind the airbox. This leaves the firewall area for a battery or the windshield washer tank which is rudely displaced by the Dmax fuse box (kinda necessary).
Any good ideas for relocating a battery? :confused:
Or maybe it's easiest to fab a washer tank that will fit under the driver battery and a battery tray for the passenger firewall. Decisions decisions. :confused: :rolleyes:
I did get a near complete 95 cab from DmaxMaverick (he brought it up from California!):) and have gutted it for the dash, HVAC etc. My cab floor is sandblasted, welded up and painted. Now for the scary electrical grafting. :eek:
Arlie
More Power
01-19-2007, 22:46
I spent a lot of time contemplating where to fit all of the underhood components. It gets crowded pretty fast... :) In the end, I found that following GM's lead in component location was best, meaning I arranged everything just like GM did in the 2001-2006 trucks. Not only does this produce the best fit, but it also looks best.
You must use a pressurized coolant overflow tank, and its elevation must be pretty close to what it is in the newer trucks - meaning its height relative to the engine. This allows you to fill the system initially and to allow it to properly remove air from the cooling system in an ongoing basis.
The bucket seats and center console I used were out of a 1995 LT Suburban. Once I got the truck running and driveable, I wished I'd kept the bench, but had it recovered in gray leather. The buckets are cool, but only two can ride. :(
You're only a couple hundred miles away... Lil Red's in the garage if you need inspiration. ;)
Jim
Make's sense. I think I'll mod a battery tray and fab a washer bottle.
I think I'll look for power split bench seats.
I've got to come up with a name for my truck so when he meets Lil Red there can be a proper introduction.
He's white and big.... Hmmm.
Ideas anyone?
Arlie
The 95 doors have the handle in a different location. The inner support panels are modified for this and don't fit where they support the relocated handles. Here's how I solved the problem.
(pic upload didn't work, I'll try again)
Arlie
Hello pictures? I think I need help. :confused:
More Power
01-22-2007, 11:58
Try this link: http://www.thedieselpage.com/features/photopost.htm
By the way, I used the factory 2001 passenger side battery tray, but fabbed brackets to allow bolting it to the firewall and steel inner fender.
Jim
93_Burrito
01-22-2007, 21:26
Arlie,
The later 6.5L TD trucks actually came with a windshield washer fluid reservoir tucked underneath the driver's side battery. GM Part #22143999
The small pump that feeds the fluid to your wipers should swap over from your reservoir to the newer one.
Andy
93_Burrito
01-23-2007, 09:02
I want to add some info... the part number I listed above will only net you the reservoir. The filler neck, pump... that's extra. GM Part #22143997 should provide everything.
Also, if you are going to run an intercooler and install it the same way More Power did with Lil Red, this won't work. Bringing the boost tube into engine compartment would put it right in the path of the reservoir. Just something else to chew on...
Andy
Thanks a bunch Andy. Valuable input. I do plan to do a similar intercooler install but with a Duramax unit. Likely it will come through the same area. I think it will require a fabricated washer tank.
Jim, my home computer internet is down so I haven't been able to try the pics again. I've got them into the album area before but I was hoping to get them into the post.
Coming up... trip to Spalding for coolant tank and battery tray, maybe some kind of compact washer tank.
Arlie
Here's the pics of the door mod. The first one is the unaltered 93 door. There's text description in the photo album for anyone interested.
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Driver_door.JPGArlie
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Door_mod_1_Small_.JPGhttp://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Door_mod_3_Small_.JPG
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Door_mod_4_Small_.JPGhttp://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Door_mod_5_Small_.JPG
DmaxMaverick
01-23-2007, 19:41
Nice fab job, Arlie! I had no doubt you would figure it out.
I thought you might recognize that gold paint! The passenger door will go on complete like we talked about.
The hardest part was trying to post the pictures :) (not really).
Arlie
Anyone know if the ABS system changed from 93 to 95. I have alldata for 95 and 2005 but not for 93 since there's little I need from there. I have the 93 unit repair manual but it doesn't cover ABS.
I spose $15 extra for 93 alldata isn't a big deal but thought someone might know.
Arlie
DmaxMaverick
02-07-2007, 01:50
I'm not sure about the '93. Is it rear wheel ABS, or 4 wheel? I have a '95 ABS module (4 wheel) if you need it.
It might be better to use a 2005 module. I'm sure the 2005 PCM will be looking for one. Another option would be to abandon the ABS altogether. I wouldn't recommend it (I like ABS), but it is an option. We got along for 100 years without them. Disable the I/P lamp and be done.
I'm fairly sure the 93 and 95 modules will not speak the language of the 05 PCM. I think the older units function independent of a PCM interface, if so I'll hook it up that way. If not I may look for an 05 unit but then it would be a matter of determining if it would mate to a 93 valve and sensors. :rolleyes:
I think I can figure out from the 95 alldata manual whether they function independently. If so I'll disable the warning lights and just do a periodic "road test". :)
Arlie
More Power
02-07-2007, 23:06
The 1993 C/Ks were equipped with RWAL (Rear Wheel Anti-Lock). It's not computer controlled. It uses input from the vehicle speed sensor to determine whether to apply full brake hydraulic pressure to the rear brakes.
Jim
Thanks Jim,
I'm going to have a look at both systems in alldata. I think I should be able to maintain the 93 RWAL.
It made me a little queasy cutting off that big bundle of wires coming out of the ABS unit. :eek:
I guess I'll just take it one little wire at a time. :)
Arlie
Not much time for this lately (fried motherboard among other things:rolleyes: ) but here's where I'm at.
Alldata shows RWAL and 4WAL for 93. Mine must be RWAL as I see no sensor wires at the front wheels.
For 1993, the ABS module (EBCM) gets a speed signal from the Vehicle Speed Sensor Buffer (VSSB) which converts the AC sine-wave signal from the Vehicle Speed Sensor(VSS) on the transfer case, to a DC square wave signal (also used by the speedo).
For 2005 there is no separate VSSB. The VSS signal (likely the same AC signal but I'm not sure) is converted by the Engine Control Module (ECM) to a "4000 pulses per mile" signal. This signal goes to a bunch of other places including the radio! (gotta boost the bass at 60 I guess). :rolleyes:
So... I have to decide what language the 05 speaks that the 93 can understand (if any). I kinda doubt the 93 VSSB puts out 4000 ppm (not sure why). But maybe the 93 & 05 VSS put out the same AC signal. Perhaps I can run the 05 VSS signal through the 93 VSSB so it can whisper sweet talk to the 93 EBCM? :)
Then again, maybe the 93 EBCM can understand the 4000 ppm put out by the 05 ECM. :confused:
I'm beyond my scanty electronics knowledge base trying to decide which way to go. One thing I don't want to do is make the ECM mad (I just did that to my motherboard :o ). I wonder if tapping off the 05 VSS to feed the 93 VSSB would alter the signal and confuse or damage the 05 ECM.
I think the brakes function OK with the ABS disabled so that's another option but ABS is nice, even if it's only RWAL.
Any electronics gurus out there? Jim? (no rush)
Arlie
More Power
02-16-2007, 19:36
You could leave the 1993 VSSB wired & active - T'ed off the VSS signal leads, so your RWAL will continue to function as intended from the factory. The 2005 ECM will be expecting to see a 2005 EBCM, but you may be able to either defeat the code (using EFI Live) that looks for it or disable the light on the dash. Even if you do nothing, it won't affect how the engine or transmission performs.
The 4000 pulses per mile are generated by the VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor) for a standard vehicle setup. The VSSB modifies that to reflect changes in gearing (tire size or diff gears).
I didn't reconfigure the RWAL on Lil Red. The module is still there, but was disconnected. A functional RWAL system only comes into play when the VSS is indicating zero speed. RWAL doesn't affect braking otherwise. This is why the brake pedal on an RWAL equipped truck can be pushed all the way to the floor (slowly and with some effort) when the truck is sitting still. The RWAL module commands the master cylinder to vent hydraulic pressure at zero VSS speed, which theoretically prevents the rear wheels from locking up on a low traction surface. As an aside, I know of a guy who had a power steering pump, a hydraulic brake booster and a master cylinder installed under warranty in his 1993 Chevy because he could push the brake pedal to the floor while sitting in the parking lot. The dealer mechanics didn't understand how the system was supposed to work either... :)
The braking system on Lil Red functions nearly perfectly without RWAL on most road surfaces. A panic stop from 60-70 on pavement applies braking power to all four corners in just the right amount. Might be more of a problem on icy roads, but.... it wouldn't be a big deal to make it functional. :)
Jim
Thanks Jim (again).
I think northern Idaho is the icy road capital of the world. All winter we hover around the freezing point, melting a little during the day so we get a nice skating rink overnight. I've lived all across north-western Canada and never saw anything like this. Every other place I've lived a good set of all-season tires was just fine but here I change over to studs. Most people around here do. It's a bit of an adjustment for the Californians moving in. The body shops do well in winter.
Most vehicles I've owned haven't had ABS. I won't be bummed if I can't make it work, but I'm going to try your suggestion for making it work.
My biggest obstacle right now is finding rear door panels to complete my interior upgrade. I've got everything for the front in tan but have come up empty on the rear. The newer ones can be found but I'm striking out for 95-98. I might have to revert to the old vinyl ones. This part is a pain because I don't want to buy seats until I know what color scheme I'll have.
Arlie
More Power
02-17-2007, 13:44
I've considered converting a really nice 90's K2500 Suburban to Duramax/Allison power. If I did, I'd try to add the matching 4-wheel ABS system from the donor truck.
Here in Montana, any vehicle 11 years or older can be registered with the state DMV permanently - meaning pay for the vehicle license plates and registration once at about 2x the standard rate, and it's good for as long as you own the vehicle. I licensed Lil Red this way a couple of years ago. This reduces the cost of ownership considerably for those who own the same vehicle for a number of years. Cost to register a newer Suburban would approach $500/year. Cost to permanently register an 11 year old Suburban would be a couple hundred bucks. ;)
Can't help you with the rear door panels.... except you might try Spaulding Auto in Spokane. As you know, they are a huge auto salvage & recycling center. They're just down the road from you.... :)
Jim
PS. If the Duramax you're installing still has bright & shiny aluminum components, I recommend you buy some clear engine paint to coat all of the aluminum components while the engine is out of the vehicle, including the alternator and A/C compressor. All that spanky aluminum turns dark and crusty in a surprisingly short period of time when exposed to moisture & road de-icer. It's much harder to coat the engine once it's installed. I saw a Duramax conversion in an older Chevy while at SEMA last year. The owner didn't want to show it to me because of the nasty looking aluminum (he said no at first). He relented only after learning about Lil Red. You'll want to show it off after completing the conversion, as well as in the future... ;)
Thanks for the aluminum coating tip. I'll be doing that one.
I've been to Spalding and searched through everything there, looked all over EBAY, put up wanted listings in EBAY and Craigslist, but no rear panels!. The bad part is I need not only the panels but the inner support panels which makes it even harder.
It's a little confusing with body changes in 99. I think that the crew cabs and 3/4 and 1 ton models have the same body/interior from 95-00 whereas 1/2 tons and suburbans change in 99.
I'll keep looking for a while but it seems I'll have to cut my losses and revert to the old ones.
Arlie
The 2500/3500 frames and front suspension are a little wider in the engine bay (the wheel track is a little wider as well), when compared to the 1500 series trucks.
Any idea if this is also true between the 1500HD and 2500HD ?
Great thread, BTW.
oilburnertoo
03-10-2007, 10:23
Just thinking out loud here, I wonder if rear door panels out of a suburban are the same as the rear doors on a crew cab?? Might help expand your search?
I believe they are the same and have searched with that option. I'm certain they're out there but it's the kind of item that doesn't get posted on internet listings much, and for whatever reason I'm not getting responses to the parts request submissions I've done.
I'm still thinking of going back to the original plastic. I have an aftermarket door lock system that works well. I could put the power windows I now have in the front and mount switches somehow.
I had a line on a brand new set of Dodge mega-cab front and rear seats (nice with power driver) that I could have picked up for under $700 with shipping but I let it go because they were gray and I have these beige panels and dash. Now I wish I'd have got them and just painted my plastic panels and dash to match. :(
I've not had time to work on it lately so no progress to report except that I did pick up a cool set of 22" rims that should dress it up.
Arlie
(HCB, I don't know the answer.)
DmaxMaverick
03-10-2007, 11:05
Any idea if this is also true between the 1500HD and 2500HD ?
Great thread, BTW.
Welcome to the Forums!
The 1500HD is the same as the 2500LD (8600 GVWR), and has a frame different from the 1500. The 1500HD was discontinued due to weight rating controversy. The 2500LD crew cab short bed is a carbon copy of the 1500HD. It was a marketing strategy that worked, but was pulled because of the weight fee and road tax base. When they first came out, I wondered how they were getting away with it. Apparently, the revenuers did too.
The 2500HD and 3500 share frame and hardware, except front hubs, wheels and springs.
Welcome to the Forums!
Thanks !
I've just been doing a little research, and what I found was that the 1500HD, 2500HD, and the 3500 all have the wider front track, while the 1500 and 2500 have the narrower front track:
* 2006 SILVERADO 1500 HD Short Bed Crew Cab
front track (inches): 68.6, rear track (inches): 66
http://tinyurl.com/2mvnmk
* 2006 SILVERADO 2500 HD Std Bed Crew Cab
front track (inches): 68.6, rear track (inches): 66
http://tinyurl.com/2ka6yh
* 2006 SILVERADO 3500 Long Bed Crew Cab
front track (inches): 68.6, rear track (inches): 74.7
http://tinyurl.com/3dk7nm
* 2006 SILVERADO 1500 Short Bed Crew Cab
front track (inches): 65, rear track (inches): 66
http://tinyurl.com/2wh6r4
* (No non-HD 2500s in 2006, but in earlier years):
2004 SILVERADO 2500 Short Bed Extend Cab
front track (inches): 65, rear track (inches): 66
http://tinyurl.com/32zgnq
Is it safe to assume any with the wider front track have the wider front frame as well ?
DmaxMaverick
03-11-2007, 10:01
Much depends on the year model we are comparing. 2006 and 2007-Classic shows different chassis specs than previous years, and the *500 designation is not the same chassis class as previous years on some models.
1500HD.....
2001-2003. Discontinued for 2004. Same chassis as the same year 2500LD.
2006. Reintroduced, but appears to have the same chassis as the 1500, which was touted to be upgraded. 2001-2003 had the same drivetrain and weight capacities available in the 2500, with an 8 lug full floater rear. The 2006 has a 6 lug, semi floater, much as the earlier 2500LD (GMT-400, 7200 GVWR), with an 8600 GVWR (same as the GMT-400 2500HD). Track specs vary by source, so I'll consider them unreliable. Without actually getting under them and measuring, I'd suspect any track differences are as much likely due to suspension/hub configurations. They do not have the same frame as the 2500HD/3500. I seriously doubt GM has a unique frame for a niche market.
2500 (GMT-800).....
1999-2004. Discontinued for 2005 and no sign of a return. Seems to be replaced by the now 1500HD. Doesn't leave a lot of choice for someone needing a 3/4 ton work truck. The 2500HD carries additional weight fees (in some states), and they don't always need a crew cab. Regular cabs are only available in 1500 (non HD) and 2500HD. There seems to be a hole in the lineup.
If that's not confusing enough, there were several mid model year changes that play into the picture. I did a side by side comparison of the 1500HD, 2500 and 2500HD in about 2002, of the chassis and drivetrains. Lost my notes, so I'm reciting from memory (about as reliable as my notes). I didn't measure, but one would not expect GM (or any other mfg) to have different frame widths for the same chassis. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't make sense, to me anyway. Not that GM would do anything that didn't make sense.....We'll see....
Oh boy.
I thought I had become LESS confused. One step forward and two steps back.
OK, I'm interested in dropping a later year Duramax/Allison into a ~2003 truck, but I want to know what to look for. I see with the new models that apparently you can only order the diesel package with the HD or the 3500.
Then I read 'More Power' posting that:
"The 2500/3500 frames and front suspension are a little wider in the engine bay (the wheel track is a little wider as well)"
so, I extrapolated ( :] ) that one needed to have the wider front frame to accept the diesel package. Hence, my question about which models have the wider front frames and noticing which are listed with the wider front tracks.
* Is this the case ?
* What do I need to look for or stay away from in a 2003/2004 model Silverado/Sierra to avoid major headaches, considering a may be swapping other parts over as well ?
DmaxMaverick
03-11-2007, 21:07
I think when MP said the 2500/3500 frames were wider, he meant 2500HD/3500. The reason is, this is primarily a GM Diesel site, and the late 2500's (1999+ GMT-800) did not have an available Diesel. The Duramax is/was only available in the 2500HD and 3500 (and the 4500/5500). The late model (GMT-800) 2500's are only available with a 6.0L gasser. The 2500HD and 3500 are available with the Duramax, 6.0L and 8.1L. The 1500HD was only available with the 6.0L gasser, while the 1500 can be had with the 4.3L, 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L (Denali, C3 and Caddy), and now the 6.2L gasser in the Denali, C3 and Caddy. That's not the end of the story, but enough for now.
Still confused? It's not my fault. GM did it. Not me........
You can stuff a Duramax into anything........given enough time and $$. It will fit into any full size GM truck. The problems surface with accessories and making the engine talk to the rest the truck, and vice versa. It's all workable, though.
You can stuff a Duramax into anything........given enough time and $$.
Like how they shoehorned a twin-turbo Vette motor into a Pontiac Solstice Roadster. There's a pricey horsepower to weight ratio that will likely get some yahoo killed.
It will fit into any full size GM truck.
Ah, well now that's encouraging.
So what is the purpose of the wider frame ? To accommodate the 8.1L big block ?
The problems surface with accessories
Such as ?
and making the engine talk to the rest the truck, and vice versa.
I assume transferring the dash and harness along with the computer helps.
More Power
03-15-2007, 10:38
The "wider front track" for the 2500/3500 mention earlier was based on what I've read about the GM pickups. I suppose the wider track is due to heavier/higher-rated front suspension and axle components. I doubt engine fit is a factor. In the early 90's you could order a Chevy SS 1500-series pickup with a big-block, and the 90's 1500-series pickups/SUVs were available with the 6.5L TD.
I saw Arlie's conversion 1993 K3500 CC SRW project last week. It'll be cool once complete. ;) In addition to the body lift, Arlie modified the motor mounts to raise the engine a bit. This is part of why he didn't have quite as much interference between the oil pan and the front axle mount assembly.
The problems surface with accessories and making the engine talk to the rest the truck, and vice versa. It's all workable, though.
Things like ABS, HVAC, airbags, wipers, cruise control, etc.... All except for ABS are covered in the conversion guide. :)
Jim
The "wider front track" for the 2500/3500 mention earlier was based on what I've read about the GM pickups. I suppose the wider track is due to heavier/higher-rated front suspension and axle components. I doubt engine fit is a factor.
Good. Good. Good.
If the wider frame is not an integral issue, then it should be fairly straightforward, as I've done lot's of swapouts and conversions over the years.
Things like ABS, HVAC, airbags, wipers, cruise control, etc.... All except for ABS are covered in the conversion guide. :)
I saw that. As soon as I find the right truck, that's one of the first things I will be ordering.
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