My 6.2 won't start

[wodan]

Hi, I have a M1008 K30 '85 that doesn't start anymore.

I flushed / bleeded the fuel pump, fuel filter and rebuild the starter motor.

What I noticed is that the relay of the glow plugs only gives power to the glow plugs for about 2 seconds. It seemed longer before...

When I have the ignition key on, and disconnect the pink wire to
the injection pump which has at that moment 12V on it,
I don't hear a click, so I suspect the fuel shutoff switch in the IP
is constantly off.

Could I openup the IP where the swith is located without damaging the IP
if I bleed / flush it with disel before I crank up the engine??

All help welcome.

PS: Excuse me for my bad English, my native language is Dutch.

[john8662]

Good readable English from our perspective!

When you disconnected the fuel cutoff solenoid wire, you'll hear the click when re-connecting the wire to the tang. Also, you might get a small electrical spark if you watch closely, if no click when trying it several times, then it could be a bad solenoid.

Try and verify that you're getting ~12 volts at the wire with voltage/ohm meter too.

You might also try another 12volt power source to enable the solenoid (using just one battery perhaps) to verify that there is not something else bad in the electrical ciruit.

If I recall correctly, there is a resistor bank on the firewall, that's what carries the load for all the 12v components in the truck.

A 2 second glow is not sufficient to get the engine started. This could be due to several things. Low voltage/amperage to the glow plug controller, or a glow plug inhibit switch is faulty. I think the CUCV's are equipped with an inhibit switch, it could be located on the passenger's side rear head on a plate. It should be a two wire connector, to bypass just shunt the connections with a short piece of wire temporarily.

[wodan]

Thanks for your comment :D

I don't hear a click, but see some spark when connecting and get 12V when measured, connected or not, so thats a good sign.

The absence of the click is what makes me supecting the selenoid.

I manually short-surcuit the glow-plug relay for 5 seconds and cranked the engine = nothing.

Tomorrow I wil start spraying wd-40 in the air cleaner and see what that gives...

[john8662]

Could very well be the solenoid in the injection pump, they normally click. No click sound could mean that the solenoid is in a bind, or the linkage it connects to inside the injection pump. The solenoid itself is probably good, because it's not burned up (open circuit) because it's using some current.

Crack open one injector line at an injector and then crank over the engine to see if you get a good dribble (small amount) of fuel weeping out of the injector nut. If so, you're getting fuel to the injectors, if not, it's got too much air in the system, or the injection pump isn't being allowed to inject fuel, something wrong with the fuel cutoff system.

[wodan]

Well, I now noticed a very little click in the selenoid and I smell
diesel when I crank the engine for a longer time (3x 10 seconds).

My glow plugs don't heat up (they don't even feel handwarm)
so I am seeking further. I measured the resistance of the glow plugs,
7 are between 1.1 and 1.5 Ohm, one reeds infinity so seems dead. I hear
the glow plug relay click, but voltage measured at the glow plugs
when relay is working is differend every time between 6 and 10 volts
so I suspect the relay of the glow plugs for now.

When I short-circuited that relay for 5 seconds the engine wouldn't start
before, but i forgot to feel the glow plugs by hand to check their temp.
I will do that tomorrow. (I is raining cats and dogs right now and my car is
parked at a place with a lot of cars travelling by so working on it is a PITA
right now :-( )

[DmaxMaverick]

Sounds like you found the source of the no start. No glow plugs usually means no start. During the summer here when the ambient temp get above 100

[john8662]

WD-40 isn't what it used to be. The main reason it was used as a starting aide in the past is because the propellant was really flammable. It's not the case now as the propellant has changed, it's still flammable, just not really good enough for a starting aide.

Using starting aides (like ether) can be used on a 6.2, but as mentioned previously you HAVE to disable the glowplugs. It's not so much of the risk of damaging the plugs, but of a hot plug igniting the fuel (ether) at the wrong time, causing damage to the engine.

[farmerherb]

I have used this method several times it works everytime.(but of course you need the IP fuel cutoff working) Soak a shop rag in gasoline then squeeze it out. Lay it across the opening in the intake(remove air filter) have someone crank the engine and you hold tight on the rag(the engine will suck it in) when the engine kicks over(starts) pull the rag off QUICK!

[wodan]

So, if I read correctly what John8662 posted, ICAN get the engine starting
with the use of starting fluids when I disable the glow plugs.
Does the compression itself do the job igniting the fuel then?

What farmerherb suggested is not really an option for be, because
there is no one to help me. But can't I instead spay some gasoline on my
airfilter instead? Will that work?

Thanks for all the great suggestions...

[john8662]

Before using starting aides, make sure you have the fuel to keep the engine going. The Starting aides are used in the event you're not getting glow plugs and you're having a difficult time starting the rig.

Like I mentioned earlier, crack open and injector line and crank over the engine and see if you get fuel out of that (leaving the pink wire on). If nothing, using the starting aides won't work, because it will attempt to start, but no diesel to keep it running. It'll most likely just fire a little, not actually run.

Forget the gasoline!

J

[DmaxMaverick]

If you spray gas on the filter, you will have no way of shutting it off. If the engine starts, it could run away, with no way to stop it until whatever fuel it's burning is gone. This is especially a problem when someone has soaked the intake with #2. This can also happen if the crankcase is overfilled. I've seen this happen when a "Jiffy Lube" put 12 qts of oil in, assuming the 6.5 and PS were the same. The engine ran up to who know what RPM, and ran until it threw a rod right through the skirt.

I still don't recommend using ether unless absolutely necessary. I've burned up and fractured glow plugs with GP power taken away. If you have 7 good glow plugs, there's no reason why you can't get power to them for a start. Just supply 12V to the plug side of the controller for less than 8 second intervals. If possible, get a full charge on the batteries first.

[85-m1028]

you can pull the glow plug circuit card and clean the terminals inside the plastic holder, when my "wait light" would go on for 2 seconds that meant that my plugs were dead. sounds like a bad relay or bad connection?? I converted my truck over to the civilian glow plug controler relay, and have never had a problem I have a write up and diagram on how to convert it.

check to see if there is voltage at a glow plug,

[6-2 CHUCKVEE]

what a coincidence mine wont start either .

[wodan]

I manually checked all my glow plugs before using an ohm meter..
Now I unplugged them and put 12V on them... Only a few glow.
So they will be replaced as well as the glow plug controller.

But I also openuped my IP and founds some small particles.
Using compressed air and a magnet I clead everything out,
relay inside is know clicking and working. Cloed everything
and filled up with clean diesel.

But when I crack the engine with one of the injector lines disconnected
from the injectors, I don't get any flued coming out... :mad:

So I still supect the IP, although when crancing, I smell
dieselfumes at the exhaust. After placing new glow plugs,
I continue the search...

[john8662]

[QUOTE=wodanBut I also openuped my IP and founds some small particles.
Using compressed air and a magnet I clead everything out,
relay inside is know clicking and working. Cloed everything
and filled up with clean diesel.[/QUOTE]

It's IP replacement time, sounds like this pump is equipped with a flexring and it has failed.

The pump needs to be updated with an EID assembly adn rebuilt.

Even if you're getting a little fuel out of the engine, if the flexring has failed the engine will only run at half the rpm it should, if that, because the driving mechanism inside has shredded, leaving slack.

Pump is rebuildable, just needs to be updated.

[wodan]

It's IP replacement time,
sounds like this pump is equipped with a flexring and it has failed.

The pump needs to be updated with an EID assembly adn rebuilt.

Even if you're getting a little fuel out of the engine, if the flexring has failed the engine will only run at half the rpm it should, if that, because the driving mechanism inside has shredded, leaving slack.

Pump is rebuildable, just needs to be updated.

Hi, do you have a picture of the flexring and EID assembly so
I can see what both are? What is EID abbreviation of?

Could I rebuild it myself? If so, at what should I pay extra attention?
Will it be costly? Could I order the EID upgrade online somewhere?

[wodan]

Just a bit offtopic question:

As far as I found are the IP with type nr DB2829-XXX only for 6.2L Applications.

But how about the DB2831-XXX ?
(If I am correct, are put on the 6.5 Hummers)

What is the difference between those two?
Are these interchangeble?

That is because I can buy a DB2831-5149 pump.

[john8662]

Hmm, good question, I'd love to have a picture of a flexring and EID assembly side by side. I'll talk to the local pump guy about that one.

Don't know what EID is short for, just know that's what they're called. Basically it's a small dampner inside the pump that's made of a differnet material than that of the flexring, and is more enclosed.

The DB2831 pump will work on your 6.2. Most 6.5 pumps for Hummers that were non turbo were rated at 170HP, so they are putting out additional fuel, your engien is rated at 155 and may not burn the additional fuel (and will smoke). But, it will physically work on your engine, may turn down the fuel a tad and have it work fine.

J

[wodan]

Does the DB2831 pump has allready that EID or does it also use the flexring?

[john8662]

Should have EID, not 100% positive, but it would be a winning bet!

[wodan]

Well, placed new glow plugs and still no start, even WITH some WD40
sprayed in... :(

It is time to clear out my garage and put the chevy inside so I can
do some mayor testing / disassembling ...
:mad:

[wodan]

But the strange thing is that the glow plugs get 3 seconds power, then
5 seconds nothing, then egain 3 seconds power, then 5 seconds nothing
then egain 3 seconds power. That's my glow plug sequence.

This is not normal, right? What could cause this kind of behavior?

[DmaxMaverick]

Depending on circumstances, could be normal. You need to confirm the voltage is getting to the plugs. If it is, and the plugs are heating, then it is not getting fuel.

Very simple forumula....Heat+Compression+Fuel=Combustion. Take any them away, and the engine won't run. If it is getting fuel, and the plugs are heating (even partially), and you have compression, and the timing is somewhere close, it should at least try to fire. Are you getting any smoke from the tailpipe? If it's getting fuel, it should at least puff out some white smoke. More cranking should yield more smoke. In my experience, slow cranking or too many failed plugs creates a huge amount of white smoke.

Try this...
Loosen all the injector fittings at the injectors. Crank the engine until all the fittings are pretty wet with fuel. Tighten them and try starting again. It could just be airlocked, which will prevent the injectors from popping. Make sure your batteries are fully charged. Slow cranking only exagerates problems, and can ruin the starter.

[wodan]

I did loosen all (well, 6 of 8) the injector fittings at the injectors
and started cranking... Not even a drip of fuel.
The diesel lift pump seems to work... so I suspect my IP :mad:

That shut-off selenoid in th IP, the metal lip that moves when the
selenoid gets power, does it have to be connected to something
IN the IP? The cover in which that selenoid is located can easily
be taken of the IP when the screws are loose... Is this normal?

When I would replace the IP, are there special things I have to
watch for, DO's and DON'Ts ?

It is the normal way for an IP to die like this; work good,
work 1 time with a little start-up trouble and then when engine
is shut off and an attempt to start it fails, do NOTHING at all ever?

[wodan]

More in detail my question egain:

Does nr 23 in picture
http://www.foxes2.be/phpBB2/images/selenoidDB2.JPG
'wraps' around nr 16 in picture:
http://www.foxes2.be/phpBB2/images/internDB2.JPG
So nr 23 can 'pull' when power is connected to the selenoid,

Or

does 23 just holds nr 16 where it is when the selenoid doesn't get
power supplied to it and when power is supplied to the selenoid just
allows nr 16 to move?

:confused:

[britannic]

BTW, they reformulated WD40 without the butane as propellant, so it's no good for kick starting any more. We sell p/n MAC 7212 or 7200 as starting fluid in our NAPA store, but it's recommended to disable the glow plugs first (to prevent blow back in case of glow plug ignition with a an intake valve open).


Well, placed new glow plugs and still no start, even WITH some WD40
sprayed in... :(

It is time to clear out my garage and put the chevy inside so I can
do some mayor testing / disassembling ...
:mad:

[britannic]

Which colour wire have you connected to which terminal? And do you have power in the pink wire when the ignition is on?


More in detail my question egain:

Does nr 23 in picture
http://www.foxes2.be/phpBB2/images/selenoidDB2.JPG
'wraps' around nr 16 in picture:
http://www.foxes2.be/phpBB2/images/internDB2.JPG
So nr 23 can 'pull' when power is connected to the selenoid,

Or

does 23 just holds nr 16 where it is when the selenoid doesn't get
power supplied to it and when power is supplied to the selenoid just
allows nr 16 to move?

:confused:

[wodan]

Power is correct connected, thats niot the issue.
Please answer my question with the pictures ;)

[BobND]

The lever on the solenoid simply contacts the tab on the governor linkage, and shoves the governor linkage to the "no-fuel" position when the solenoid is not powered, due to the soil spring on the solenoid.

When the solenoid is powered, it's lever simply moves out of the way, and allows the governor linkage to move out of the "no-fuel" position.

It does NOT "wrap around" anything.

[wodan]

Thanks a 1.0E6 BobND for your info!

[wodan]

Well, after having the IP disassembled myself, it seems that the axle
broke at the safety break point. So I im search of an DB2 axle with seals...

If there is anyone who knows where I could get one,
please let me know...

[john8662]

Head seized eh?

I'd put it back together for a core exhange pump!