What Lies Ahead for the Duramax

[More Power]

I've restarted this thread.... Something happened when I posted.....

You may have read a piece about the LBZ written by David Kennedy in 4-Wheel & Offroad magazine a while back. He speculated there might be twin turbos and more power in the next few years... It's all speculation at this point in time. GM has become so very careful about letting power specs out that I doubt anyone but the lead engineers and project managers know the details. They also know how to milk the press.... :D

Personally, I hope they invest more of their engineering talent in fuel economy improvements. At some point, power increases will require bigger/stronger/heavier chassis/drivetains to avoid an increase in warranty repairs. Bigger/stronger/heavier is counter to fuel economy improvements.

Regarding soot traps, the industry is a little concerned about the learning curve of the buying public, and the need to service the traps. All emissions control devices so far have been passive - from an owner's perspective - no need for routine service. The soot traps will change all that. If urea is necessary to help control NOx, there could be yet another layer of routine service for the emissions system.

Jim

[Mr. D]

Personally, I hope they invest more of their engineering talent in fuel economy improvements. At some point, power increases will require bigger/stronger/heavier chassis/drivetains to avoid an increase in warranty repairs. Bigger/stronger/heavier is counter to fuel economy improvements.

Jim

Boy, do I agree with that! It seems like the big three don't look far enough ahead. (Maybe they are this time based on the posting about smaller GM diesel engines coming. Hooray!) Certainly there are those that need LBZ power for heavy use, but I suspect there is a big market for a full size pickup with a 3.9 to 4.5 liter diesel engine that gets 30+ mpg. Can't let Toyota have all that business! When diesel hits $5.00 someday much of pickup demand will look more like Europe overnight.

[Tsckey]

I've been watching a lot of the Sebring 12 hour race today where Audi introduced its TDI race car. Last time I looked one of them was still leading. Interesting that there is absolutely no smoke. I believe they use soot traps. I like breathing clean air and I like diesels. I hope GM (and others) can develop a system to enable these wonderfully efficient engines to be part of our energy solution for now and the future.

TC

[trbankii]

Regarding the "horsepower wars" I figure it is sort of like the "megahertz wars" with computers... At some point you get to the point of what the truck (or computer) will do for you overall on a day to day basis. If you have the basic horsepower you need to get the job done, what are the other issues such as mileage, comfort, convenience, etc... I think that is where things will start heading in the years to come.

[hapaschold]

i bought my first diesel for fuel economy and longevity.(a 1985 s10 3/4 pickup,with a 2.2 diesel,5 speed, 40mpg city , 52mpg highway) wasnt very fast, but put 200 k over 7 years and didnt spend much more than regular maintenance, tires, brakes, couple clutches, and a radiator.... hopefully , the 06 dmax i have on order will be the last for some time also. yeh, the performance is great on new diesels, but all along i d prefer reliability and economy so when we hit 5 bucks a gallon i m spending the same $$$ a month as today....

[OC_DMAX]

"trbankii" makes an excellent post above. Computers used to be about processor speed and memory (disk and ram). If you ask me today, I am not even sure what the current processors are from Intel. The LB7, while a large improvement over all previous diesels on the market at the time, really wakes up when a Juice (or similar device) is added. I suspect the LBZ is similar to the Juice on Level 2 (though I have never driven one). Personally, that is more than adequate.

I believe GM needs to concentrate on reliability. I don't mind paying a premium, if the reliability is there. The LB7 sure missed that mark. I will be replacing my current truck in two years. If the reliability of the diesel is not on par with the available gas engines, I will switch back to gas. The diesels are only getting more complicated with substantial repair bills if there is a failure.

The other item GM needs to work on is the overall cost of these vehicles. When you see trucks on dealer lots with MSRP's of $45K-$50K, you really have to wonder at what point is the affordabilty beyond what the majority will pay. I guess GM is hanging on to their last little niche in a competitive auto market and milking it for all that it is worth.

[richp]

Lots of folks need the big truck capacity for work and towing, and that's all that's keeping them from foreign makes now. When the Japanese develop a true 3/4 ton truck with a diesel and a solid towing tranny, the Big Three are going to be in big trouble in the truck arena.

There always will be the die-hards who will only own "their" brand. But there are lots of business owners and others who will go with low maintenance, good fuel economy, and longevity without regard for brand. And that market could very quickly migrate to Toyota, as I see it.

I love my '01 K2500 (113k miles) -- wouldn't have anything else right now. But I'll continue to watch to see how the DMAX trucks -- as a category -- have performed in terms of longevity and service costs when hundreds of thousands of them are at the quarter million mile mark.

Rich Phillips
Member #27

[trbankii]

Lots of folks need the big truck capacity for work and towing, and that's all that's keeping them from foreign makes now. When the Japanese develop a true 3/4 ton truck with a diesel and a solid towing tranny, the Big Three are going to be in big trouble in the truck arena.


I just read the editor's page in the latest Diesel Power magazine. His topic is what each of the three levels should be - half ton, three-quarter, and one ton. Basically, he's saying that the half tons should be a vehicle for those soccer moms and others who want a truck that acts like a car. Then the three quarter ton models should be a combination of comfort but a step up to more power and durability. The one ton models should be reserved for those who need a truck for being a truck and reliability, dependability, and ease of maintenance should be stressed. It was an interesting article.

[SoTxPollock]

One size fits all just doesn't apply to trucks. I agree pretty much with the 1/2,3/4, & one ton idea, but it seems lately the 1/2 keeps going in the one ton direction, but will probably stop as soon as Toyota comes out with another diesel that gets 35 MPG, and I think they are. I don't see them going to the One Ton market. Surely our big three can see that an engine half the size will still power a 1/2 ton truck with ease. Remember 1/2 ton trucks used to have wimpy 6 cylinder gas engines, but they could haul what a 1/2 ton was suppose to. Fuel economy is going to take prioriety over horsepower as the price of fuel goes up, but they probably won't make any major change in that direction until forced to by the competition. Whats interesting right now to me is that my son has a 1/2 ton Tacoma with a 4 cyl. engine and My duramax gets the same mileage as his little truck.
Look to the total package that gets you what you want based on what you know or suspect your going to do with it, if it does everything you ask of it, you did good. I know I did.

[7.4 VORTEC]

More Power,

While at the Tulare Farm show last month, I got to talk to a GM engineer at he GMC booth. His specialty was the whole 4500 series work truck. In asking about the Duramax, he felt the diesel market for the big three were going to get very tough. With the new emission standards that had to be met, he felt that the price for the diesel option was going to increase $5000 to $7000. His opinion was that most people would not want to spend $12000 more for a diesel only to have to pay nearly $3.00 per gallon for the stuff. Other than towing torque, a gas motor may actually be more economical over a 4 to 5 year period for the daily driver (most of who run around empty in 3/4 ton and one ton trucks). When asked about horsepower coming down with the new emissions, he said it's only going up:) That kind of suprised me. He complained that the mandated soot traps needed to be cleaned...but no one has any system set up at this point to commecially do it (like a Jiffy lube or smog check center). He felt the machine for cleaning the traps was going to be in the $20,000 plus range. This will be an expense passed on to the consumer, just like an oil change. He also stated that the new emission standards are so good, the air coming out of the exhaust pipe will have less particulate matter the air we breath. Overall he was a very cool dude to talk to.

I see todays full size diesels as the muscle car I never got in the crappy performance years of the late 70's and 80's. A 350 hp Duramax is just a blast to drive, not matter how you cut it. I'm willing to pay a premium for it, but how much can I eventually afford at the rate things are going?? Muscle cars of the 60's died out, hopefully the big three figure out how to make our diesels better, more fuel efficient and keep them affordable.

Regarding fuel economy, will a multiple displacement system work on a diesel like it does on gas motors??? If running empty at 55 mph on flat ground, I surely don't need all 8 cylinders, do I? It seems like a simple ecm program to me.

At this months National Work truck show in Atlanta, it was pretty hard to find a full size van that wasn't a Sprinter turbo diesel. Nearly all display vans were Sprinters. Also, at the Toyota display they had a very bad a** looking truck with a 5.7 liter emblem on the fender panel. If the 4.7 liter gas motor is near 270 some horsepower, this new beast has to be at least 325 hp. Even good ol' boys were commenting on how good this new pickup looked. The next two years will be very interesting.

Keep up the good work,
George

[More Power]

7.4 VORTEC,

I spoke at the Diesel Technology Forum's annual meeting in DC last fall. DTF's mission statement includes advancing clean diesel engine technology and helping to expand the diesel market. The meeting was largely attended by industry marketing and engineering representatives from most of the leading diesel engine and diesel engine related component manufacturers. Bosch, Garrett, Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Navistar, John Deere, and many-many others were represented. Noticeably absent were GM and Isuzu.

I thought I was prepared to give my 15 minute talk, based on what I've been told by GM & Isuzu over the past several years about their perception of the diesel market. I was very surprised by what I heard from all those I spoke with....

There was a lot of optimism for the future of diesel engines, and not one person I spoke with wanted an emissions limit roll-back. In fact, they were pleased with the stricter emissions standards, but hoped diesel fuel qualities would catch up to the engine technology. It'll require cleaner fuel to allow diesel engines to meet the upcoming emissions standards.

The cost differential between gas/diesel fuel and the diesel engine option cost are genuine concerns of GM. Aside from a couple of interesting conspiracy theories, I've yet to hear a sensible explanation for why the pump price of diesel fuel costs more than gasoline.

The VW diesel engine option is currently about $1200. Given the variable pricing GM has applied to its SUV's and pickups since Katrina, it would seem the diesel option cost could be manipulated as well. If pump prices rise to predicted levels this summer, it may well increase demand for diesel powered vehicles.

Almost all gas/diesel vehicle comparison dialog I've read through the years fail to mention that a large percentage of the diesel engine option cost remains as added value when it comes time to sell or trade a diesel equipped vehicle. When factored into buying and owning diesel pickup, that added trade-in value swings the cost of ownership advantage more toward diesels. This fact is rarely mentioned.

I wish GM was more bold in its diesel program. If VW and Jeep can sell all of the light-duty diesels they produce, surely GM could. The higher the fuel prices, the more attractive diesel becomes. A gas powered H2 with its 10-12 mpg simply doesn't fly with today's fuel prices. GM could well double its H2 sales volume with a 25-mpg V-6 diesel.

Jim

[trbankii]

I agree with MP's take on things from reading through recent Diesel Progress articles on implementing the new Tier regulations. Heck, if they can swing it for off and on road vehicles, farm tractors, mining equipment, Class 8 vehicles, and such they can certainly do it on the consumer end of the spectrum. Again, as MP suggests, if D/C and VW can do it the others can certainly follow suit.