Oil Consumption

[William Fullington]

i posted a few months ago and got some help, but still have not gotten this problem solved. to recap briefly:
9000 miles on the engine. 1qt / 350 miles. new turbo. no abnormal smoke visible while driving (white smoke on start and black smoke when over fueling considered normal).

the people i bought the engine from 6.5L Diesel (http://www.65ldiesel.com) asked me to pull the exhaust manifold on each side to see if the ports were wet, signifying bad rings. the drivers side was dry. I was told instead of pulling the passenger manifold off i could take the glow plugs out and look at them. if wet means rings are bad in that cylinder. they were all dry.

i have a rear main seal and front main seal leak, but there is hardly ever any oil on the ground which makes me think the leak is not big enough to cause that much oil loss. when i do see an oil spot it is no bigger than a quarter.

i am hesitating to fix the rear main seal and front main seal leaks because that is approx $1000 repair that goes to waste if it is the piston rings, oil control rings or something else in the cylinder. (which taking out the engine and putting it back in is another $1000).

any advice?

[JoeyD]

1qt in 350 miles is way to much. You need a compresion check to see whats going on. Warranty I hope? Call them and tell them they need to foot he bill for the dealer to check the comp.
Your not using synthetic are you?

[William Fullington]

1qt in 350 miles is way to much. You need a compresion check to see whats going on. Warranty I hope? Call them and tell them they need to foot he bill for the dealer to check the comp.
Your not using synthetic are you?

all the mechanics and dealers ive talked to, as well as bill heath from heath diesel, have told me that compression tests and cylinder leak down tests will not give definitive results. but i suppose none of what ive done so far is definitive either. its a parts only warranty. my dad had the engine put in before i bought it from him. no im not using synthetic. i was using rotella-T but changed to delo-400 at last oil change.

[William Fullington]

for how much? Makes me wonder whats inside!

im not sure what you mean. it is a parts only warranty. i am considering changing the rear main seal and front main seals on my own but i dont know what im doing and if i dont do it right then it wont help. i dont know if $1000 to repair the seals is accurate i was quoted $1100 by a dealer and my mechanic wasnt able to give me a quote at the time i'm calling back tomorrow, but the $1000 to take the engine out, ship it and put it back in is the best i was quoted from a reliable mechanic. i was quoted $800 from someone i havent dealt with and $1300 by dealer.

[JoeyD]

all the mechanics and dealers ive talked to, as well as bill heath from heath diesel, have told me that compression tests and cylinder leak down tests will not give definitive results. but i suppose none of what ive done so far is definitive either. its a parts only warranty. my dad had the engine put in before i bought it from him. no im not using synthetic. i was using rotella-T but changed to delo-400 at last oil change.

It will not give a definate answer but will lead you in the right direction. Low comp in a cylinder could be valves, rings or head gasket. This is a 9000 mile motor and should have good comp. If it's low on any one cylinder get another motor.
Front or rear main seals will be pouring oil if that was where it was going. Is the bottom of the truck coated in oil? Oil cooler lines OK?

[William Fullington]

It will not give a definate answer but will lead you in the right direction. Low comp in a cylinder could be valves, rings or head gasket. This is a 9000 mile motor and should have good comp. If it's low on any one cylinder get another motor.
Front or rear main seals will be pouring oil if that was where it was going. Is the bottom of the truck coated in oil? Oil cooler lines OK?

there is a light-moderate mist of oil underneath. oil cooler lines are ok. the oil on the frame and other parts up front is all from the front main seal. if those were leaking/bad i'd have more oil on the ground than i do

[Hubert]

I don't remember your other post right off. List the things you have covered and haven't solved the problem yet.

CDR valve working ok ( it limits the vaccum inside the engine that the turbo pulls)? There is a return line from turbo is that line flowing oil back to engine ok? Whats that cold air intake? Is the intake infact free and clear to breathe volumes of air? Is the air filter a low restriction one, clean?

[William Fullington]

I don't remember your other post right off. List the things you have covered and haven't solved the problem yet.

CDR valve working ok ( it limits the vaccum inside the engine that the turbo pulls)? There is a return line from turbo is that line flowing oil back to engine ok? Whats that cold air intake? Is the intake infact free and clear to breathe volumes of air? Is the air filter a low restriction one, clean?

cdr valve was replaced. the cold air intake is the one offered by ssdieselsupply (http://www.ssdieselsupply.com). conical K&N filter with a wide rubber elbow. Filter is new and clean with low restriction (turbo screams beautifully). i looked at the oil return line when i changed the turbo. it seemed ok, but then again it is a black pipe with black oil running through it. is there an easier way to check this with out taking off the exhaust manifold.

[JohnC]

Diesels burn oil as a matter of course. (fuel oil, generally). A quart in 350 miles is an insignificant amount as far as fueling is concerned, so don't expect to see wet manifolds. Sounds like you've eliminated almost everything else, so my guess is it's burning it. Only thing I can't see you've checked is the turbo, in spite of the fact it's "new".

[William Fullington]

Diesels burn oil as a matter of course. (fuel oil, generally). A quart in 350 miles is an insignificant amount as far as fueling is concerned, so don't expect to see wet manifolds. Sounds like you've eliminated almost everything else, so my guess is it's burning it. Only thing I can't see you've checked is the turbo, in spite of the fact it's "new".

i have checked that many times. the turbo blades are spotless. the old turbo had a light mist of oil the new turbo has stayed as clean as it was before i put it in.

would a rear/front main seal leak that doesnt show spots on the ground be enough to cause that much oil consumption?

ive been told to do a compression test by people here and have been told by 3 mechanics that it will not be helpful and a waste of $200+.

i want to get this solved so i can get to fun stuff again. =[

[damork]

I agree with Joey D, a proper compression test is in order.

[William Fullington]

I agree with Joey D, a proper compression test is in order.

with all the recomendations for a compression test....why have 3 mechanics told me it wont tell me anything and isnt worth the time or money? is there some thing they dont know or i dont know.

[BobND]

If there is an obvious piston problem or ring problem, cylinder wall damage, etc., the compression test will show it.

However, it is POSSIBLE to have an engine with good compression, with only a little variance between cylinders that has oil control "issues".

A friend just went through this with a 1998 Vortec 350 with only 40,000 (putzing around town) miles. Compression was GREAT, yet it swilled oil.

They replaced it with a rebuilt, then tore the old engine down. I looked at it today. No ridge, most of the factory crosshatch still visible in the bore, pistons and rings looked good, yet the rings didn't contol the oil loss.

I used to know some older guys that would have given it the Bon Ami treatment!

[JohnC]

Granted, a compression test, especially a static compression test, can show ring sealing issues, but, if you have an oil control problem, the extra oil that gets pumped up into the ring area can actually create a false seal and an inaccurately high reading.

[Mark Rinker]

Before I even start, one guess: I bet you've had your Turbo-Master cranked up high enough to peg your boost gauge at some point in this trucks life...right?

Unless there is a puddle under your truck where ever it sits, you aren't leaking that much oil!

My guess is that you now have some poorly sealing rings, and you are blowing by alot of oil and burning it. When your truck is fully warm, take off the oil fill cap, and have someone rev the engine to 2K and hold it there. Does it blow lots of oil smoke out the fill tube directly in relation to RPMs? There is only one way that happens...poorly sealing rings.

Now the hunt for the guilty: Was it the guys from NEW YORK CITY that ripped you off, or damage that you did while towing heavy in the Texas sun with your Heath Chip and a buncha boost???

Truck #2 started burning oil like a pig last spring. Probably about 1 quart every 500 while towing or plowing. No leaks under the truck.

1) Switched from Rotella to Mobil synthetic.
2) Replaced CDR.
3) Turned down Turbo-Master to allow peak boost of 12# when towing, nominal of 8-10#.

I believe the biggest change was due to reducing boost pressure. I had been running 13-15# nominal and 'who knows' peak. Thats probably what started the ring and oil sealing problem to begin with. Oil consumption has decreased to a more normal 1 quart every 1000 miles. Bottom line, I dropped out of the 'RJS School of Boost Management', since I wasn't running an intercooler.

Remember - oil is cheap compared to hard parts and labor. Turn down the boost. Drive it. Feed it oil.

[William Fullington]

Before I even start, one guess: I bet you've had your Turbo-Master cranked up high enough to peg your boost gauge at some point in this trucks life...right?

Unless there is a puddle under your truck where ever it sits, you aren't leaking that much oil!

My guess is that you now have some poorly sealing rings, and you are blowing by alot of oil and burning it. When your truck is fully warm, take off the oil fill cap, and have someone rev the engine to 2K and hold it there. Does it blow lots of oil smoke out the fill tube directly in relation to RPMs? There is only one way that happens...poorly sealing rings.

Now the hunt for the guilty: Was it the guys from NEW YORK CITY that ripped you off, or damage that you did while towing heavy in the Texas sun with your Heath Chip and a buncha boost???

Truck #2 started burning oil like a pig last spring. Probably about 1 quart every 500 while towing or plowing. No leaks under the truck.

1) Switched from Rotella to Mobil synthetic.
2) Replaced CDR.
3) Turned down Turbo-Master to allow peak boost of 12# when towing, nominal of 8-10#.

I believe the biggest change was due to reducing boost pressure. I had been running 13-15# nominal and 'who knows' peak. Thats probably what started the ring and oil sealing problem to begin with. Oil consumption has decreased to a more normal 1 quart every 1000 miles. Bottom line, I dropped out of the 'RJS School of Boost Management', since I wasn't running an intercooler.

Remember - oil is cheap compared to hard parts and labor. Turn down the boost. Drive it. Feed it oil.

actually i have the turbo master installed at specification. my boost guage shows 5lbs or so cruising 70mph lvl ground and i' never seen it hit over 9lbs. i havent done any heavy towing, just a mid size trailer bout 300 miles. dont exactly appreciate bieng talked down to. im no mechanic but im trying to learn. that doesnt mean im an idiot. i didnt buy the engine. my dad did before i bought the truck from him. he's appologized alot for buying from this company. im just trying to solve the problem now.

if the engine was old and i'd just feed it oil. but its got 9000 miles on it and i'd like to drive it till it wont run no more. figure 300k miles, 350 miles / quart, thats 828 qts $3 a qt thats about $2400 vs $1000 to get the engine sent back under warranty and repaired.

if it is "poorly sealing rings" is there anything i can do to make them seal better or does that mean the rings need to be replaced and will not seat any further.

[Mark Rinker]

Sorry if the 'tone' of my posting was misinterpreted. It wouldn't be the first time...

Glad to hear you can eliminate over-boost as a cause. I wasn't that smart, and probably did permanent damage to my rings and oil seals as a result. Now all I can do is feed the engine oil and use the DuraBux's for towing... I failed to mention that it had virtually NO blowby and NO oil use before it pulled and worked a full season with high boost settings. The Rotella may have also factored into the accelerated wear - who knows.

Does your engine show signs of significant blowby at the oil fill neck while running at 2K RPM?

Again, sorry didn't mean to offend...thought you might have had a similar experience!!!

[JohnC]

if it is "poorly sealing rings" is there anything i can do to make them seal better or does that mean the rings need to be replaced and will not seat any further.

I hate to be a pessimist, but, if they haven't sealed after 9000 miles there's probably not much you can do now to change anything.

[William Fullington]

I checked for blow by today. I was seeing some back in november but have since changed the CDR valve and turbo and couldnt see any today.

i'll be calling 6.5L Diesel tomorrow and hopefully they'll agree to accept the engine. they'll likely tear it down to tear it down. if it has "good compression, with only a little variance between cylinders that has oil control "issues"." as BobND said will they see anything? or will they look at it and shrug their shoulders, put it all back together, with new rings i would hope, and send it back to me with a big "we told you there was nothing wrong"

in either case, all thats required to fix this should be a new set of rings right? so either way it should come out working perfectly. and me with a perfect truck and short some cash.

Also, side note - and i admit i havent searched this yet. but does any one have any tips for breaking it in again? what oil? miles w/o load? miles w/ load? how much load?

[Mark Rinker]

Yesterday I used truck #2 for a ~400 mile delivery. It has been 'parked and plugged', only used for snowplowing all winter.

Since the last oil change in October, the dipstick level has dropped 1/4" in ~2000 miles. This is ~7,000 miles and two full changes after switching from Rotella (which was burning 1 quart every 500 miles) to Mobil 1 synthetic.

Bill Heath is the one that advised me to get the Rotella out of the engine if it was using oil. He had experienced the same problem with one truck in particular.

The only reason I mention this is that the right oil can make a big difference. However, I realize we are comparing a new motor to a 100,000 mile motor and that is where any similarities stop...

[stingthieves]

Since the last oil change in October, the dipstick level has dropped 1/4" in ~2000 miles. This is ~7,000 miles and two full changes after switching from Rotella (which was burning 1 quart every 500 miles) to Mobil 1 synthetic.

Has head agitator...->Did you read the can and notice Mobil1 15w50 does not sport a CH rating. I to was taken in by the advertising folks at Mobil and ran it for two oil changes when I noticed this fine tidbit of info. I now fill with Amsoil 15w40 - and its less expensive too! Kind Regards Rick

[William Fullington]

Yesterday I used truck #2 for a ~400 mile delivery. It has been 'parked and plugged', only used for snowplowing all winter.

Since the last oil change in October, the dipstick level has dropped 1/4" in ~2000 miles. This is ~7,000 miles and two full changes after switching from Rotella (which was burning 1 quart every 500 miles) to Mobil 1 synthetic.

Bill Heath is the one that advised me to get the Rotella out of the engine if it was using oil. He had experienced the same problem with one truck in particular.

i switched from the rotella to chevron delo also under bill heath's advice. he's been very helpful with all this, allowing me to call him directly. however my oil consumption stayed the same

[JohnC]

If they change the rings they also need to hone the bores and clean the piston ring groves, otherwise you'll just have the same problems over again.

Put a load on it right away. Higher combustion chamber pressures help with break in. Most of the break in has happened (or will never happen) after the first hour or so.

[rjwest]

You may try changing oil to straight 20W oil and running
the heck out of it, May seat the rings or clean the ring groves,

[Bnave95]

I have'nt read all of this,with the new Eng.,did the turbo get replaced?
I'm leaning on the turbo.

[Mark Rinker]

I should have said Mobil Delvac 1 instead of Mobil 1...not sure how concerned I am about the lack of CH rating...should I be?

Heard good things about Amsoil, but use Mobil products as that is what my servicing shop stocks for its light diesel customers. I am doing 10K change intervals for the Duramax's - about every 4 to 6 weeks.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/Product_Information/Diesel_Engine_Oil_FAQ.asp

[Hubert]

The CH or CI rating of the oil IS IMPORTANT. It specifies the additive package for a diesel engine. The additive package is better suited to solubizes the soot and blowby contaminations.

I think SJ designnation would be the next drop down but CH or CI is preferred.

I really don't have personal first hand experience on a rebuild of one of my engine break ends but watched my cousin break in a drag motor.

Basically what he did was crank her up valve covers off had the rocker arms adjusted loosely and idled a bit (previously oil filters were full and oil pump primed and pumped oil to engine vitals). On this first start up he varied throttle a little just over idle to keep her going until oil was starting to sling off rocker arms good and continued to idle or just over idle till fully warm. Then he adjusted rocker arm clearances. Next he cranked it up then goosed it to middle to upper middle RPMs on and off for several cycles. He cycled this several times Cut it off and let it cool some. Then started it back up idled then repeated cycling revs to near redline. Shut it down and drained the oil hot. Filled it back up and was ready to race.

I agree most all the break in is on initial run. I think its best to run it til its good and warm then change oil immediately. This will get out any burr material or grit in the assembly and washes out any assembly lube. Depending on what they use for assembly lube. The grease like stuff doesn't really mix with the oil too well.

One of the few new vehicles I bought said don't use cruise control or drive one speed for too long and to vary rpms for the first couple of hundreds of miles. This will help cycle the loading on parts and pieces.

I was told when breaking in precision bearings its good to run just til normal operating temps then let cool slowly til cold then repeat increasing run time at normal temps for 3-4 cylces. This normalizes any residual stresses in the materials.

A cast engine block will have plenty of residual stresses. You'll get this cylcing in normal operation. Drive it to work cool then drive it home. The more cylces the faster it breaks in. Logic follows the first time you tow or really work the engine to higher temps it will normalize "to the next level" So don't tow for a long time the first pull. A few short trips would be better than one long one. After a few thousand of miles, some cylces to higer temps, and some age (a few weeks / one month??depending on time at operating temps and temps achieved) to fully normalize residual stresses and its as good as it gets.

I have heard a good low milage engine thats sat in a junked vehicle is a seasoned block and is more desirable for hot rod build up than a new hot off the assembly line engine. I expect its fully normalized all residual stresses slowly.

[William Fullington]

looks like 6.5L Diesel and US Diesel Engines finaly conceeded. they'll take the engine back under the parts only warranty it came with. I get to pay freight both ways, plus labor to take the engine out and put it back in (wish i could do it my self but i dont have time or the knowledge, would be a great learning experience). they'll hook it up to their dyno, run it at 3000 rpm's for a few hours and if it shoes bad they'll replace it. if it doesnt show bad i have the option of paying $500 for a different engine, which i'd be stupid not to take. thinking of getting DSG's dual phase idler to put in when the new engine gets here, and im going to ask if they'll transfer my stud girdles from the current block to the replacement one or if i should take them out before i ship it.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

"I think SJ designnation would be the next drop down but CH or CI is preferred." Oil ratings with a first letter "S" are for spark-ignition engines; with a first letter "C" are for compression-ignition engines (diesels). I would NEVER put non-C rated oil in any diesel engine of mine.

Blessings!