View Full Version : The next big HD truck...
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/autoshows/chicago2006/toyota/page1.html
Ford and GM have been ignoring the Tundra since it's inception b/c it wasn't a true fullsize truck and only had a 7000 lb towing capacity.
I imagine this will make them stand up and take notice. If it doesn't, Hillary Clinton will have to follow through with her plan to have tax payers subsidize GM and Ford just like it does Amtrak.
ronniejoe
02-15-2006, 20:53
No fear here! Let the piece of junk try to keep up! Toyota and Nissan don't build trucks...they build liberal, yuppie status symbols.
DmaxMaverick
02-15-2006, 21:29
I couldn't help but laugh!
Looks like someone morphed a Dodge and Ford together. Homer Simpson could have done as well.
StrangeEngine
02-15-2006, 22:40
Originally posted by ronniejoe:
No fear here! Let the piece of junk try to keep up! Toyota and Nissan don't build trucks...they build liberal, yuppie status symbols. Dude, you've got a lot to learn.
This is the attitude that allowed Toyota, Nissan, and Honda to eat the American car makers for lunch. Now they're moving on to the truck market and the trucks WILL be good. It may take a few revisions, but they will get there.
Count on it.
- Mark
Originally posted by ronniejoe:
No fear here! Let the piece of junk try to keep up! Toyota and Nissan don't build trucks...they build liberal, yuppie status symbols. It will take a few years but it will put a major hurting on GM, Ford and Dodge. Toyota's quality is first rate and something that Ford, GM and Dodge only wish they could achieve. Ford's 6.0 power stroke has cost ford dearly in terms of recalls and warrenty. Dodge has a great engine but the rest of the truck leaves a lot to be desired. GM has had its problems with the LLY, I'm not the only on to have GM buy one back due to overheating.
If toyota does release the Diesel you can bet it will be a very good truck. I have driven Toyota diesels in Japan, they are nice. The Hino trucks in Japan are toyota.
I would consider the Toyota diesel truck in a Heart beat. Dodge, Ford and GM have **** poor customer service.
My 96 GMC made at least 10 visits to the dealer in 140,000 miles. My 05 GMC made 7 vists in 14,000 miles. My 01 Chevy made 1 visit in 140,000 miles. (01 and 05 were Duramax, 96 was big block, all are 3500 crew cabs). Wifes Nissan zero visits to dealer in 170,000 miles.
Still the 01 Duramax was the very best truck I have ever owned. 05 duramax was the very worst truck I ever owned. I hope the 06 Duramax that is on order is like the 01.
wurk_truk
02-16-2006, 04:46
Every single person I knew laughed at the 70's Camry's and accords. Who is laughing now?
Who wants to purchase a full size truck that does NOT go back to a dealer? THAT answers the question of how big a threat this is to Big Two by 2016.
The Japanese have proven that if one sells a vehicle that does not break, it sells VERY well.
I think the Toyota looks pretty good. My neighbor has one of those Titans and the engine both sounds and runs really good. However for me, if you are going to buy a truck its gotta be a GM, Ford, Dodge. Dont ask why, it just has to be one of the big three.
ronniejoe
02-16-2006, 05:27
You guys need to learn a little about sarcasm... :rolleyes:
Yet, I would never... never buy one of those. I still laugh at the Camry. The competition will make GM better. You are all alike. Read the rant against Wal-mart on the 6.5 forum. You complain about foreign products taking American jobs, yet run out and buy the first foreign truck that comes along.
Still no fear...
Originally posted by ronniejoe:
You guys need to learn a little about sarcasm... :rolleyes:
Yet, I would never... never buy one of those. I still laugh at the Camry. The competition will make GM better. You are all alike. Read the rant against Wal-mart on the 6.5 forum. You complain about foreign products taking American jobs, yet run out and buy the first foreign truck that comes along.
Still no fear... No fear for you maybe, ask Mr. Ford or Rick Wagner if they're worried. Believe me they are. Did you read todays headlines regarding Ford and and how many years they are now saying it's going to take before they turn a profit...???
Ford and GM (with a few exceptions) aren't building cars and trucks that people want to buy.
Neither Ford or GM can GIVE away a mid-size sedan or (except as rental or fleet vehicles). Small truck. The Colorado and twin are complete failures. Ford hasn't updated the Ranger in 12 years, and sales have seen yearly double digit
declines. Ford may kill the Explorer and GM may kill Saturn and sell off Saab.
I'm not totally giving up on Ford and GM, but until they have a true revival, by firing all the "old guard" CEO's, designers, engineers, assembly line works, and KILL the UAW once and foreall, Toyota, Honda and Nissan will continue to clean their clocks. Make no mistake its the Hyundai/Kia that could eventually put GM and Ford out of business not the Japanese makers. If Americans are willing to buy "average" cars, nobody can build them cheaper than Koreans and Chinese.
ronniejoe
02-16-2006, 10:45
Originally posted by nlp:
...and KILL the UAW once and foreall (sic)... This is the key. Have you ever read the book Animal Farm by George Orwell? The union leadership has become worse than the management they originally fought against. Unions serve no purpose anymore except to drive up costs.
Now, that will get some discussion going! :D
Unions not only drive up costs, they drive DOWN quality! Think UAW could "improve" on Lexus quality?
Originally posted by DmaxMaverick:
I couldn't help but laugh!
Looks like someone morphed a Dodge and Ford together. Homer Simpson could have done as well. Agreed!
I also chuckled when they said that there HAD to be a 3/4 ton [b]"Also, Amstock said one of the engineers took a 5th-wheel trailer to campgrounds. Obviously a half-ton won
...and KILL the UAW once and foreall (sic)...
This is the key. Have you ever read the book Animal Farm by George Orwell? The union leadership has become worse than the management they originally fought against. Unions serve no purpose anymore except to drive up costs. Holy cr@p, let me get my popcorn before this really lights up. It is going to be fun. I do agree that labor unions in this country are no longer the protectors of the working man, but parasitic dregs on hardworking Americans.
Originally posted by WNFD:
However for me, if you are going to buy a truck its gotta be a GM, Ford, Dodge. Dont ask why, it just has to be one of the big three. So your first choice is the GM, Second the Toyota and third a Ford? For a few years now GM, Toyota then Ford are the Big 3 with GM being 1, Toyota 2.
Mark Rinker
02-16-2006, 14:42
You are all alike. How are 'we' all alike, Ron? I'll tell you how - we are all loyal GM diesel truck owners. Not much more than that.
As far as I can tell, GM better hold on to their loyal base of light duty truck buyers or they have no more shells left in the gun. While the Duramax is a slam-dunk, there are legions of formerly brand loyal 1500 series owners that are not satisfied with their 6.0L gas Silverados, and not interested in 'big-buck' diesels for commuting and weekending.
The new Camaro isn't going to turn many heads IMO, even if it makes it back to the showroom. The gasoline Generation III engines killed a 30+ year run of largely interchangeable part smallblock powerplants, dropping mileage and bottom end torque numbers in favor of big horsepower numbers made at > 5,000+ rpm. My '300hp' 6.0L gasser is a pathetic replacement for the 5.7L Vortec in the '98 K2500 I WISH I still owned.
Killing the traditional smallblock design in production vehicles may have been the worst move GM ever made. I HOPE I don't have to ever buy a 'Toy'-ota, but if it becomes solidly cost effective to do so, I will.
Be careful, Ron - some limp wristed, Toyota drivin', union lovin steel worker might be among us... :D :D :D
[ 02-16-2006, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Mark Rinker ]
Originally posted by JTodd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> ...and KILL the UAW once and foreall (sic)...
This is the key. Have you ever read the book Animal Farm by George Orwell? The union leadership has become worse than the management they originally fought against. Unions serve no purpose anymore except to drive up costs. Holy cr@p, let me get my popcorn before this really lights up. It is going to be fun. I do agree that labor unions in this country are no longer the protectors of the working man, but parasitic dregs on hardworking Americans. </font>[/QUOTE]Nah, this isn't going to create a war of words. The UAW and Unions in general have no place in todays modern, technologically advanced society.
This ain't "The Jungle" of the 1800's or the Industrial Revolution. There are very few blue collar jobs anymore (and that's a good thing).
Look what UAW has done to Ford and especially GM.
Yes, management and white collar engineers and designers haven't helped, but it's the labor contracts of the 80's and 90's and the resulting legacy costs that doomed Ford and GM to failure.
This is not debatable!
GM's top penny pinchers and union workers is what made people look for the foriegn car for dependability. Toyota was making cheap no frills vehicles when thats what the American people wanted and needed. Now they are going after the high profit margin vehicles GM and Ford hae had a hold on for years. I hope it forces then to produce top quality and dependable vehicles.
Toyota is not a guarentee you get a highly dependably vehicle, they will go through the same problems GM has strugled with in the past, union labor will hurt their domestly made product line. The Yotas built overseas were made by people who were very proud and maybe lucky to be working and would perform 100% for as many hrs a day as needed. Proud of their work.
It's pathetic that our own country does not have this attutide which puts us behind in things we produce just like it did in the electronics world.
I for one will never own a product other than GM and maybe it's blind to do this but I believe we need to wake up and support our country even though it cost you some money in the long run.
GM all the way and F those who look overseas to spend their money. This is just from an American worker who is self employed and wants to see out country on top in all aspects
Originally posted by Joey D:
GM's top penny pinchers and union workers is what made people look for the foriegn car for dependability. Toyota was making cheap no frills vehicles when thats what the American people wanted and needed. Now they are going after the high profit margin vehicles GM and Ford hae had a hold on for years. I hope it forces then to produce top quality and dependable vehicles.
Toyota is not a guarentee you get a highly dependably vehicle, they will go through the same problems GM has strugled with in the past, union labor will hurt their domestly made product line. The Yotas built overseas were made by people who were very proud and maybe lucky to be working and would perform 100% for as many hrs a day as needed. Proud of their work.
It's pathetic that our own country does not have this attutide which puts us behind in things we produce just like it did in the electronics world.
I for one will never own a product other than GM and maybe it's blind to do this but I believe we need to wake up and support our country even though it cost you some money in the long run.
GM all the way and F those who look overseas to spend their money. This is just from an American worker who is self employed and wants to see out country on top in all aspects Toyota's built in N. America are non-union, so Unions have little or NO impact or them.
Toyota like Walmart will never allow their employees to unionize, nor should they. If you don't like working for Toyota or Walmart...quit.
nlp
By "not allow unions", you mean give them benefits, pay and working conditions that would make them happy? Because forbidding labor unions is currently against the law. As I stated, I am firmly against the practices of unions. However, realizing that a company cannot 'keep a union out' directly, they must and do work to make sure their employees don't want unions, gives a lot of credence to the position that Wal-Mart is not a bad place to work.
The fact that foreign corporations seem to be able to build higher quality products in the US and turn a profit points not to poor workmanship, but bad procedures. Traditional manufacturers in the United States seem to try to modify what they done historically, regardless of how bad or inefficient is is/was (design/engineering/management/manufacturing) Foreign manufacturers, and Japanese specifically have started with a blank sheet of paper and gone from there. The Germans - well they have a whole different way of doing things. They through as many engineers at a problem as possible. These engineers come up with Rube Goldberg's idea of car parts, finely honed, perfectly functioning Rube Goldberg parts, but maybe just a touch over-engineered.
Originally posted by nlp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joey D:
GM's top penny pinchers and union workers is what made people look for the foriegn car for dependability. Toyota was making cheap no frills vehicles when thats what the American people wanted and needed. Now they are going after the high profit margin vehicles GM and Ford hae had a hold on for years. I hope it forces then to produce top quality and dependable vehicles.
Toyota is not a guarentee you get a highly dependably vehicle, they will go through the same problems GM has strugled with in the past, union labor will hurt their domestly made product line. The Yotas built overseas were made by people who were very proud and maybe lucky to be working and would perform 100% for as many hrs a day as needed. Proud of their work.
It's pathetic that our own country does not have this attutide which puts us behind in things we produce just like it did in the electronics world.
I for one will never own a product other than GM and maybe it's blind to do this but I believe we need to wake up and support our country even though it cost you some money in the long run.
GM all the way and F those who look overseas to spend their money. This is just from an American worker who is self employed and wants to see out country on top in all aspects Toyota's built in N. America are non-union, so Unions have little or NO impact or them.
Toyota like Walmart will never allow their employees to unionize, nor should they. If you don't like working for Toyota or Walmart...quit. </font>[/QUOTE]It's not against the law to not allow works to unionize. NC and most southern states are "Right-to-Work" states. Unions don't really exist here. Yes, there are teachers and state employees unions, etc. The difference is you don't have to join them to work in those sectors and they can't strike. It's against the law. Unions here may be unions by name, but they have no power. Thank God!
As you stated Toyota and Walmart must not be too bad to work for, because each has a LOT of employees. Walmart store managers make over $100,000/yr in salary alone...not too shabby.
Toyota, as I understand it, pays very well and has excellent benefits.
I work for a Japaneese company, Denso, the fourth largest supplier of car parts in the world. We have 21 plants in the USA. The UAW has made several attempts to bring the Union in. However they can not even get enough employees to sign a patition to hold a vote. This is true even in the three plants we have in Mich a very big UAW state. It is also true in our plant in KY and our 3 plants in TN.
This is becuase we have good wages, not quite as good as UAW but close enough that Union dues would eat the differance. We have good medical, dental and vision. We have a good 401K. We also get good bonus'.
Toyota's plants are also non union as are Nissan and such. They are usuall the highest pay in their geographical area.
Both Honda and Toyota have models that are only built in the USA and exported to Japan. The toyota engine plant West Virginia exports engines to Japan. The west virgina 4 cylinder plant was named the most cost efficient engine plant in the world. The 6 cylinder line there is so good it is the first US built enigne they have allowed to go in a Lexus.
The problem with GM, Ford and Chrysler is not the american worker. That is proved out by Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Mercadies and so on. They are all building more plants in the US. They are all increasing sales and profit. Toyota is breaking gound on two more plants in the US this year while GM and Ford are closing plants.
UNION mangement is a big problem for the US brands. Customer service is the next biggest problem. Toyota has great customer service. GM's is sorely lacking.
10 Years ago now one believed the big three auto makers in the world would include a Japaneese company. The number 2 in the world is Toyota. Toyota has a goal to be number 1. They just may achieve their goal.
It's not against the law to not allow works to unionize. NC and most southern states are "Right-to-Work" states. Actually, it is against the law to forbid unions. The National Labor Relations Act includes the following two sections.
[quote]RIGHTS OF EMPLOYEES
Sec. 7. [
rob from bc canada
02-17-2006, 08:39
I think Toyota has a ways to go to get the dependability under hard and rough useage that we have come to expect from our North American truck manufacturers.
My brother in the logging business had a Tundra in Smithers - nothern BC - and had lots of problems.
A front wheel part took weeks to arrive, because they said one of these had never broken before, so they didn't stock them.
I have owned both GM and Toyota, and my GM was way cheaper to maintain in the long run - since Toyota parts and service were so expensive.
It just seemed like the Toyota was designed for light highway duty and not for in the bush. The design seems more "refined" but that isn't always what is needed.
I suggest you folks read - America: What went wrong? by Donald L Bartlett and James B. Steele.Pulitzer Prize- Winning Reporters of the Philadelphia Inquirer.
PS- Your engines are Japaneese.
StrangeEngine
02-17-2006, 11:43
Originally posted by Joey D:
GM's top penny pinchers and union workers is what made people look for the foriegn car for dependability. Toyota was making cheap no frills vehicles when thats what the American people wanted and needed. Now they are going after the high profit margin vehicles GM and Ford hae had a hold on for years. I hope it forces then to produce top quality and dependable vehicles.
And then:
I for one will never own a product other than GM and maybe it's blind to do this but I believe we need to wake up and support our country even though it cost you some money in the long run.You contradicted yourself. smile.gif
The problem is that competition won't force the domestic manufacturers to stop building crap if people continue to buy it out of "loyalty." These companies work on market forces - supply and demand. If demand drops, they'll figure out how to build better products or die.
If you want to support the USA, and I believe you do, then help the domestics by encouraging them to build better products. You do that by voting with your wallet, not by buying an inferior product which just perpetuates the problem for a few more years.
Someone said that that the Toyota trucks don't hold up under "heavy duty" usage. This may well be true right now. But they learn fast and you can bet the next generation will be better. The Big 3 didn't get there overnight, either, and the Japanese manufacturers have a track record of innovating MUCH faster than the domestics.
I'll buy the best product I can afford. I don't really care who makes it.
- Mark
Mark Monroe
02-17-2006, 12:13
I personally have had way more problems from my 2004.5 D/A that I feel it should have. I am actually starting to get smoke now when cold to the point that I have had several co-workers ask me what is wrong with my truck. An injector? Who knows.. It's just one more damn problem with this truck.
In summary, I am not convinced of GM's current quality or of the Duramax's. My truck's track record has been dismal and if anyone researches its GM repair history when I sell it they probably wont give me much for it.
I am a GM guy to the bone. I have had Corvettes and Chevy trucks my whole life and plenty of them.
This D/A though has not been a very good truck on several issues. I will be looking at Toyotas when they come out with a diesel and will also look at them if I end up getting a 1/2 truck.
I work hard for my money and I cant afford to buy something that it going to be breaking down and getting poor dealer service. If GM cant handle it then I will find a truck that can.
Random thoughts...
Mark
As opposed to what some have said, I think the Camaro will be an important part of the comeback of GM given it can "run" and is a quality build. I have been very happy with my GM products. However I realize generally quality needs to be stepped up. The next couple years will be critical. The release of the new Yukon and the HD pickups is a great opportunity to show a renewed committment toward building great pickups and SUVs. This market is where a lot of the profit lies for GM. Should they blow this opportunity the market will be ready for a Toyota/Nissan takeover in the truck market. The half ton market is becoming a disaster for GM. The new truck can't come soon enough, hopefully it will be worth the wait.
Mark Rinker
02-17-2006, 19:26
I hope the Camaro is a home run for GM. I have owned many F-bodys over the years.
However, I think the designers lost sight of capturing a retro image of the 1st genner Camaros and started chasing Mustang's form and stance.
It's lines and specifically, its nose and grill doesn't remind me of a '69. It does look a bit better with black hood stripes - but what muscle car doesn't?
VT_mountain_man
02-17-2006, 20:25
the big 3! about the only thing made in the USA is the names. GM, Ford, Dodge. All of you need to go look under the hood and inside. I think most of the parts come from outside the USA. about the only thing done here was to put some of the bigger pieces together and rip you off
when they sold it to you.
My truck had less tham 7k miles on it when I had to wait a month for GM to supply the parts to fix it. I had four new *** cars and one small truck and had no problems with any of them, All were what I call turn the Key units. Thats all you had to do was buy gas and drive. all went over 100K miles without any major problems and very little maintainance.
The big problem with the Big 3 from top to bottom and the Unions is GREED !
Again the big 3 in order are GM, Toyota and Ford. Most of the content of the GM, Ford and Dodge is built in the USA, better than 90 %. However lots of the content is built by Japaneese companies that make car parts in the USA like Denso, Bosch, NGK and so on.
The starter on a Harley is made in the USA, but by a Japaneese company, Denso.
The Duramax engine was a joint venture between Izuzu and GM. Izuzu is the second largest manufacuter of Diesel engines in the world.
Most all of us would prefer to buy a GM, Ford or dodge. Yet they make it hard for us to chose their products as the quality is not equal to a toyota, honda or Nissan. The cusomer service after the sale is also not equal to a toyota, Honda or Nissan.
Why buy a Chevy Impalla or Ford five hundred when you can by an Cammery or Accord for the same money and get better fit and finsh, better quality, better reliabilty and better customer service? All four of those cars are built in the USA buy US workers. My money would go to the Toyota or Honda if I wanted a good mid size car. I want the most for my dollar.
That is why GM, Ford and Chrysler better improve the quality, fit and finsih and reliabilty of their full size trucks and SUV's or they will loose that market also.
Toyota can turn a new model in Half the time GM can. Toyota makes design improvements every year. They gained market share so fast because of their ability to change quickly to market trends and demands. They have several assembley lines in the USA that can switch to a differetn model in less than 8 hours. For GM to switch a line to a differetn model will take two weeks minimum.
The cultural mind set at Toyota is Kaizen (continous improvement), that applies to the USA plants also. Denso where I work requires management to take Kaizen classes and study toyota management.
I love the look of the hopefully next camaro
durapontimax
02-18-2006, 08:55
I would like to know where the H*** all you guys work that you are so against unions? Why do you think unions were formed in this country? Ask the person below the maneger at wally world that makes $100,000 a year what he or she makes. Not enough to support a family I'll bet. The CEO'S make millions and peeons below them make s***. Who do you think is going to buy the product produced anywhere when it's just the rich and the poor?? I know, this will realy stirr it up, but someone had to stand on the other side!!
Tough Guy
02-18-2006, 10:39
Why do you think unions were formed in this country?To protect workers from unfair labor practices, safety, wages etc...
Ask the person below the maneger at wally world that makes $100,000 a year what he or she makes. Not enough to support a family I'll bet. Thats the way it works, training, schooling equals higher pay...
The CEO'S make millions and peeons below them make s***. Who do you think is going to buy the product produced anywhere when it's just the rich and the poor??The auto workers union IMHO has only managed to drive up the cost of vehicles and lower the standard for quality. The CEO's will still make their millions, then cut every corner they can to save a penny and charge the consumer more to make up the difference.
I know, this will realy stirr it up, but someone had to stand on the other side!!I am on your side, I want to see everyone make a fair wage and have a safe work place. Financial equality has to paid for by someone...I just don't want that someone to be me...
Chris
ronniejoe
02-18-2006, 10:59
Originally posted by durapontimax:
I would like to know where the H*** all you guys work that you are so against unions? Why do you think unions were formed in this country? Ask the person below the maneger at wally world that makes $100,000 a year what he or she makes. Not enough to support a family I'll bet. The CEO'S make millions and peeons below them make s***. Who do you think is going to buy the product produced anywhere when it's just the rich and the poor?? I know, this will realy stirr it up, but someone had to stand on the other side!! I worked for GM for 15 years... I saw it first hand, from the inside. I saw people sleeping, reading the newspaper, playing cards, among other shameful practices. These were protected by the unions.
I also fault management for allowing the unions to become so powerful that this can happen. I never have and never will work for a union. They're a blight on society. Greedy management is also a blight on society and I condemn that as well. Two wrongs do not make a right, however.
When I was a kid I had a summer job at Bethlehem Steel. Minimum wage was about $1.15 I made $4.50 plus overtime. Time and a half over 40 hours a week. Double time and a quarter on holidays. The guy that was supervising my crew slept most of the day. Mid-summer we went on strike. Management negotiated a new contract. Wages went up. A week later Bethlehem announced a price increase. A week after that GM announced a price increase. Net gain: zero. Even back then I knew something was wrong with that picture.
When my father (white collar) retired (early) from Bethlehem they gave him a lump sum retirement payoff and free healthcare for him and my mom for life. Their pension program was more solvent than the company at that time. Since them Bethlehem is no more and my mom pays for her own health insurance. You can't get blood from a stone...
I read somewhere recently that the average assembly line worker at GM makes something like $45 an hour with great benefits. No higher education necessary. After 20 years experience and a Master's Degree I was doing a little better than that, but not as good in the benefits department. Something's wrong with that picture too, IMHO.
duraponimax,
You complain about CEOs that make millions, but you forgot to mention the union presidents that make millions. If you speak out against them as fervently, then I will listen. I do agree that many CEOs are over paid based on their performance. Of the tens-of-thousands of CEOs in this country that make over a millions dollars a year, we only hear about 4 or 6 that are crooks, or run the company into the ground. The other ten thousand run profitable companies that employ millions of Americans. Most have big salaries because they have big responsibilities and increase they value of their company, keeping people employed and increasing the value for the owners or stockholders
I do not have a problem with the core principals of unions. I don
It's funny that your "right to work" states are the poorest states in the country.
ronniejoe
02-18-2006, 18:54
Poorest? Best to live in, but not poorest.
The right to work states are poorer than the Union States like MI. However many of them have a better standard of living for similar jobs.
Example, my company has plants in MI, KY, SC, TN and AK. My job classification pays 8 an hour more in MI than I get in TN. Yet in MI I would not be able to aford a log home on a acre lake lot. I have a much better standard of living in TN than I would in MI even with the Higher wages in MI.
My Dads home in MI appraized at 180,000 dollars last year. His property tax was over 7500 dollars. My home in TN apprized at 450,000 dollars and my property tax was 2450 dollars. I also pay no state income tax.
Why do you thing jobs are leaving places like MI? Why do you think jobs are growing in places like TN? It is less expensive for a manufacture to have a plant in TN than MI, land is less money, taxes are lower, and yes wages are lower but the wage earners get more with their money.
ronniejoe
02-19-2006, 10:36
Then, really, those are not poorer states. Are they? Thank you Dave for making my point very eloquently.
Dave - Why do you think jobs are leaving places like AK,MO,Tn? Why do you think jobs are growing in Mexico or Indonesia? It is less expensive for a manufactuer to have a plant in Mexico or Indonesia.Land is less money,taxes are lower,and yes wages are lower but the wage earners get more for their money. :rolleyes:
ronniejoe
02-19-2006, 13:03
Originally posted by sb359:
Dave - Why do you think jobs are leaving places like AK,MO,Tn? Why do you think jobs are growing in Mexico or Indonesia? It is less expensive for a manufactuer to have a plant in Mexico or Indonesia.Land is less money,taxes are lower,and yes wages are lower but the wage earners get more for their money. :rolleyes: I've lived in Michigan, Illinois and Indiana. Of the three, Indiana is by far the better place to live. I'd be tempted by North Carolina or Tennessee, but I have roots here. I certainly would not consider British Columbia. Too much socialism. Have you ever lived in the US?
Mark Rinker
02-19-2006, 18:01
RJ loves all gay socialist union card carrying cowboys that live in British Columbia.
:D :D :D :D
Originally posted by sb359:
It's funny that your "right to work" states are the poorest states in the country. I live in Raleigh, NC (Tax-a-chusettes of the South). We have more college graduates, BA/BS, Masters, and PhD's than any city in the country. Seattle, Silicon Valley and Raleigh are always 1,2 and 3 in various orders every year. Raleigh is not a for the "Poor." NC has many rural poor areas but so does EVERY state in the country including Ca. You are just flat wrong on this point.
NC, Ga, FL, TX, Az, Tn economies are all either booming or doing just fine.
Workers in non-right-to-work states in 2004 made on average $35,609, compared to $29,650 for workers in right-to-work states, according to the federal Bureau of Economic Analysis' measure of personal income
What's At Stake?
ACT NOW: Missouri "Right to Work" Bill Introduced
Right to Work Hurts Everyone
Workers in states with so-called Right-to-Work (RTW) laws have a consistently lower quality of life than in other states
ronniejoe
02-19-2006, 19:45
You're a Canadian...what are you doing trying to influence political events in individual staes in the United States? You are wrong about what you are saying. Cost of living has a lot to do with this issue.
Our household income is in the $100,000-$200,000 range. We're not rich but we do just fine (especially considering all the northerners moving down here and voting to raise our taxes.
Anyway, no unions here in NC and somehow our household income isn't that bad...we must be lucky.
Originally posted by nlp:
Our household income is in the $100,000-$200,000 range. We're not rich but we do just fine (especially considering all the northerners moving down here and voting to raise our taxes.
Anyway, no unions here in NC and somehow our household income isn't that bad...we must be lucky. BTW, if your Canadian, please do NOT move to NC!
Our healthcare system $ucks, schools $uck, our taxes are too high, it's too hot in the summer, hockey $ucks (and I hear we even have a NHL team), you'd hate it...I promise!
I wouldn't do that-- That's a job for a lobbyist.
NLP- You folks have the best team in the NHL
Originally posted by sb359:
NLP- You folks have the best team in the NHL We do??? Go figure...
Most of us stick to College Basketball, College Football and the NFL.
We have some pretty decent college basketball teams down here from time to time ;), I didn't know our hockey team was any good.
Hey SB, serious question.
Are you guys (in Canada) using the new clean, low sulfur diesel that we're going to be using here next year? If so, how does your truck run, any better or worse? Just curious....Thanks!
As of Oct. 1, 1994, Shell and other major Canadian refiners began selling only low-sulphur (0.05 per cent) diesel fuels, under an agreement with the federal government to reduce particulate emissions.
Shell Fuels advisor Colin Britton says some concerns have been raised in the United States about loss of fuel pump lubricity, due to sulphur-content reductions.
But he says he sees no cause for concern in Canada, because Shell's Scotford Refinery near Edmonton has been manufacturing ultra-low sulphur diesel fuel (0.01 per cent) for more than a decade without experiencing any signs of lubricity problems.
Originally posted by sb359:
Workers in non-right-to-work states in 2004 made on average $35,609, compared to $29,650 for workers in right-to-work states, according to the federal Bureau of Economic Analysis' measure of personal income Wont argue that. I promiss you that 29K a year in TN will by my family a lot more than 35K a year in MI will purchase. I am from MI, 25 years ago, all my brothers and parent live in MI. I have a brother that makes 12K a year more than I do. I have a bigger house, mine is on a lake and his is not. My house cost more money but due to property tax my payment is less a month. I pay just 2500 in property tax and he pay over 7000 in property tax. He also pays income tax and I do not.
I did a lot of reasearch into cost of living in 01 when I retired from the USN and was evaluating Job offers in Differrent states. I turned down many jobs that pay much more than the job I took. This was due to cost of living in those "Rich States". There are several web sites that help you do this. Plug in the size home, family income and town and state. It will let you know if you need to earn more or less than where you are to keep the same standard of living.
I worked for a Co. in KY that Had Nine locations. 7 non-union, 2 union, we all made the same money, had the same benefits, but I brought home more money (thanks to their dues) and put up w/ less BS while making customers happier. At times when swamped I was sent out to help in the unionized locations and couldn't get sh!t done for fear of have a greivence filed because I took someone eles's job. It was stupid. If I spilled oil I had to wait on a janitor to clean it up, if I needed parts I had to wait on a parts guy, if working on location and needed to weld something I had to wait 2 hours for a weld truck to show up and the lists of stupid sh!t that was brought in by a union goes on and on. Stuff like that drives up cost because it takes 5 paid employees to do what I could have and have done done myself. They finally struck themselves out of a job over $.25. Unions do have there places in the world, I'm just not sure where!
ronniejoe
02-20-2006, 12:07
Originally posted by madmatt:
I worked for a Co. in KY that Had Nine locations. 7 non-union, 2 union, we all made the same money, had the same benefits, but I brought home more money (thanks to their dues) and put up w/ less BS while making customers happier. At times when swamped I was sent out to help in the unionized locations and couldn't get sh!t done for fear of have a greivence filed because I took someone eles's job. It was stupid. If I spilled oil I had to wait on a janitor to clean it up, if I needed parts I had to wait on a parts guy, if working on location and needed to weld something I had to wait 2 hours for a weld truck to show up and the lists of stupid sh!t that was brought in by a union goes on and on. Stuff like that drives up cost because it takes 5 paid employees to do what I could have and have done done myself. They finally struck themselves out of a job over $.25. Unions do have there places in the world, I'm just not sure where! I've seen this over and over in UAW infiltrated plants. I grew up on a farm where you just did what needed to be done. I'll never forget the first time I walked into a GM plant to interview for a co-op job to attend GMI. I felt like I had walked into an alternate reality without experiencing the warp. I said that day that I could not understand how any company could stay afloat doing what they did. They certainly cannot anymore.
I have literally seen projects come to a screeching halt and wait days for an electrician to show up to flip a switch, for a mill-wright to show up to move a chair, for a pipe fitter to show up to turn on a valve and the list goes on. It is the stupidest thing that I have ever seen in my life.
It got that way because we didn't have any competition (I'm talking global, here) for a long time after World War II and could get by with that nonesense. Times have changed and now there's competition that doesn't agree to live in the alternate (read "false") reality. We either change or take down the shingle. It's as simple as that.
That is very true about union and only being able to do your very specific job.
If my plant was Union we would be out of business. I say that as we have only 3 production maintenance guys per shift. They all have to be able to weld, work on Hydraulics, pnumatics, PLC's, Robots, Lasers, motors and controls, kiln burners along with run a mill, a lathe and so on.
If this was union I would have to have at least 10 guys per shift. We run four shifts so that is 28 extra people, lots of people at 24 dollars an hour. Here if your in maintenace and something needs fixed it is your job no mater the trade.
Jimamatic
02-21-2006, 12:38
I too think it's silly the way unions have gone as far as they have in some areas. It can and does raise the cost of production through the roof. Unions are there to provide workers with fair and balanced working conditions, pay and benies. They are not there to allow a worker to sluff off, read the paper, sleep, or do anything contrary to producing what he or she is being paid to do. It's ludicrous behavior and is causing unions to lose their strenth for which they were intended.
On the other side of the coin, I think that it is totally unfair for a an executive to be appionted by the bod of a company, be issued huge stock grants, salary, perks, and a huge retirement package for about 5-7 years of work.
What makes these people think they are intitled to that. It's a double edged sword between management and labor.
Jim
Wanted to buy GM,
can't get std shift with a 6.0 or dmax.
can't get 3.73 ratio with 6.0 gas guzzler.
can't get long box in a heavy half
can only get what GM says I need, ????
50 years of GM , Maybe a Dodge in my future.
Or a Jap truck when they make a diesel....
Wanted to buy GM,
can't get std shift with a 6.0 or dmax.
can't get 3.73 ratio with 6.0 gas guzzler.
can't get long box in a heavy half
can only get what GM says I need, ????
50 years of GM , Maybe a Dodge in my future.
Or a Jap truck when they make a diesel....
You can get a 6 speed manaul with the Duramax. Not sure about the others.
Best GM car I ever owned was a 88 Buick Park Avenue,drove it 250,000 with ony a ignition module and a water pump replaced,
It would go over 30 mpg with the air on.
And then what happened?,in all the subsequent years the mileage went down, not up or even stay the same.
In over 45 years of driving I have owned all of the big three, with Toyota and Honda thrown in, I have turned wrenches on all of them and I can say sadly that in many respects the Toyota and Honda are better than their US counterparts.
For instance practicaly all of the bolts on the T&H are cadium plated and are quite resistant to rust, and for someone that lives deep in the rust belt that means something to me,twisting a bolt off in one of them is rare.
Presently drive a Toyota camry, along with my two GM diesels, it constantly delivers over 30-35 mpg, haven't seen a GM car of comperable size that will match it because they can't learn how to build a decent 4 cyl engine.
GM has been so stuck in the mud in recent years it sucks, they just haven't got a clue that OHC engines are the way to go for performance, economy, and reliability.
Even my D/Max with all the good things they have done is still a pushrod engine, and you can bet that decision wasn't made by Isuzu.
Toyota dosen't even build a pushrod engine with the exception of the Nascar Truck engine, and then only cause Nascar won't allow a OHC because they too are still in the dark ages.
I will gladly go back to GM when and if they can build a car comparable to my Toyota, but just don't ask me to buy a Furd I can only stoop so low.
Merle
Last week I came within inches of trading my dmax in on a Tundra. Having just gotten it out of the shop for a flywheel replacement (at 90K miles), the SES light came on 2 days later. This will be the 6th unscheduled visit to the dealer in 12 months...3 for major repairs (flywheel, injectors and transfer case leaks).
Toyota and friends are slowly dialing in to what the american pickup truck buyer really wants. And when they do, what person who respects their hard-earned money would stick with shoddy craftsmanship, dismal reliability and horrible customer service. We won't have to worry about the unions then.
SC Duck Hunter
03-01-2006, 11:53
I've been a loyal GM Owner. I've had one Ford (96 F150 4x4) and it is was a total piece of crap, first and last Ford I'll ever buy. The DMAX I just bought is my first diesel though. I looked at the Tundras before I bought this truck mainly just to see what they had to offer. If I was looking to buy another gas truck to replace the gas Z71 I just got out of, I'd have bought a Tundra before I bought another Z71. I stuck with GM though b/c I wanted a diesel. Toyota has got GM beat on reliability and price hands down in the gas truck market. I could have gotten a 4 x 4 crew cab Tundra loaded to the hilt for about $ 1,200.00 less than what I could have bought another extended cab Z71 like what I had for. And look at the resale value on a Tundra vs. a 1500 Silverado, it's alot more. It's only a matter of time before Toyota puts a diesel in their full size trucks. They are taking over the US full size truck (gas) market and it's only a matter of time before they try to tap the diesel market too. As far as foreign products go, aren't our Duramax's made by Isuzu? I have seen the 07' Tundra's though, it is about the ugliest damn truck I've ever seen, but I bet they'll sell the heck out of them.
mhagie -
I agree with you. I am in a very similar situation. In the last 12 years, I have had 3 GM trucks but also have had 3 Toyota Camrys. For the money and cost of operation, I would find it very difficult to beat the Toyota Camry (I drive 95 miles round trip each day to work). For the $17K out the door that I paid for the last Camry (2003), I find it amazing that it has 4 valves per cylinder, Overhead Camshaft with Variable Valve Timing (in the 4 cylinder). The freeway mileage is around 30 mpg and it transports 4 adults comfortably. If it was GM, they would only offer this same engine in a top dollar car. Thats the basic problem with GM, they need to offer value in the mid size cars with feature (including engines) that match Honda and Toyota. Maybe someday they will see the light! Until then, I wait in anticipation for the new HD Toyota with a diesel engine.
There are many reasons you get more for your money with a Toyota. Below comes from a trade magazine. The Job bank is a safety net for UAW workers who are put out of a Job by GM. In quotes is exactly out of the artical
"Situation
1. GM closes OK City assembly plant, maker of Chevrolet TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy SUVs
2. 2200 hourly workers to enter "jobs bank"--1st time occurs within entire plant
3. UAW members in jobs bank get $31/hour pay plus full benefits
4. GM says jobs bank enrollment now tops 8K w/ onset of plant-closing program
Significant Points
1. OK plant closes after 27 years, 6M vehicles produced
2. Jobs bank costs GM about $130K/worker per year, including wages/benefits
3. OK workers delighted to have "jobs bank" to rely on, created in mid-1980s
4. UAW draws line in sand on proposals to delete "job banks" in next contract "
How would you like to make $31 an hour plus benifits while layed of or forced out of a job due to a plant closing? Heck I bet a lot of people would like to Make $31 an hour at their job. No wonder GM wants the job banks eliminated. UAW sure wants them it a great benifit for their members
The point you make above is just "one of many" that are valid. I suspect for every cost "issue" you can find the UAW involved in, there is an equally surprising cost "abuse" that the senior executive management is involved in. So one issue would be cost competiveness - this includes all levels of the company (hourly or salary). To get the company back on track, substantial sacrifices must be made at each level.
GM will not grow the business until they are producing products that the "vast majority" of the car buying public want and desire. That is the bottom line. Right now, they produce a Truck/SUV line that is sought after. That is a starting point. However, I know of absolutely no one here at work that finds any Chevrolet car desireable (and by the way, where I work, most people have access to the GM Employee discount). Until that attitude is changed, GM will never be the thriving company it was many years ago.
More Power
03-02-2006, 18:01
Dave,
The LBZ is only available with the Allison.... Some speculate emissions compliance and/or a lower input torque limit for the ZF are why.... The new tap-shift 6-speed Allison makes transmission control similar to that of a manual. :cool:
Jim
ronniejoe
03-03-2006, 05:57
The new tap-shift 6-speed Allison makes transmission control similar to that of a manual. :cool:
Jim
It's similar to that on a Cat D8R, too!:D :cool:
I'll do the job for 20 $ an hour
WITH OUT BENEFITS
According to my GMC Sierra book you can get the 6 speed manual with the lower out put LLY.
My point with the artical was 31 and hour to be laid off is rediclous. I believe that factory workers need to make a living. However many highly trained skilled people do not make 31 an hour working. Yet UAW workers on a low skill assembly line make more than that.
The UAW with their unrealistic demands will force them to close the doors. With a wage structure and benifit package like they have GM can not make a profit. If they UAW does not give in to some cost reductions they will have less people working. They will price them selfs out of work.
Yes management of GM also has outragious pay and perks. It is also to top heavy.
Remember forgien companies are building here. They are making a profit here. Forgien copmpanies have less folkes in management. They also do more with less people so they can still pay good.
The maintenance people in my plant must do it all. By that I mean 1 guy has to be able to weld, work on hydraulics, pnumatics, motors and controlers, PLC's, robots and lathes and mills and so on. There fore we have about 1/4 the maintenace people wich cuts overhead big time. Line workers clean their work station and the plant. Again reducing overhead.
We have one of the highest pay scales in a 70 mile radius. We have the best benifit package in the area also.
My point is cars and trucks can be built in the USA while making a profit for the company and paying the workers well.
Are you kidding? Now I can't even get a manual transmission? That was 1 of 2 tipping factors when I bought my '02 dmax. Toyota has addressed the other one with the double cab. If they'd only put another leaf in the rear, it'd have been a no-brainer.
I love driving my truck. It kicks butt up the hills and is nice and comfy inside. I feel much better with the piece of paper I've folded and stuck over the SES light. Take away my clutch, though, and the playing field has tilted Toyota's way.
s
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