towing legality question [Archive] - TheDieselPage.com Forums

Mike in NJ

08-09-2004, 05:36

I have a 2500HD with the Duramax/Allison. I am planning to buy a flatbed gooseneck trailer (probably 30 to 35 feet with dual axles) and use it to tow 2 sports cars (Porsches) to/from the track.

Someone said to me that there was no way I could "legally" do that, especially without dual rear wheels on the truck, but probably I would be illegal even with dual rear wheels. They said it didn't matter if the truck was rated by Chevy to carry the load. They said that if I was pulled over, a trooper could have the vehicle weighed and that it could be either impounded or I could receive a steep fine.

Where might I look to determine if this person is right or wrong? Are there any good resources for determining the rules in various states?

Thanks!

Turbine Doc

08-09-2004, 08:52

DOT of the states you are travling through probably the best source of info. Don't forget to get enough Ins to cover your liability in the event someting happens.

letsgo

08-09-2004, 16:21

As long as the axles OF THE TRAILERare rated for the load and the total weight (truck, trailer, 2 cars, and tools, fuel) do not exceed the manufacturers maximum weights you will be OK.
However if you are in BC. Canada and OVER weight, expect to be stopped and towed out of the province at your own expence.

good luck

CareyWeber

08-10-2004, 03:12

You can do it.

One thing to look at is most state do not really care what the truck is rated at, but they do care on the tax you paid.

The tax to haul 8K lbs is less than 12K lbs. Look to see what weight rating is on your trucks registation. In Montana and in Missouri you can haul what you paid for and if they catch you over that you'll pay a fine.

Some states may also have weight limits based on hte type drivers licence you have too.

None of this it to say that if you are over what your rig can safely tow you won't found libel in an accident.

Carey

Craig M

08-13-2004, 13:39

The flatbed can be a disadvantage in some states. In Caliifornia (and some other states I assume) it is specifically stated that pickups do not have to enter the truck scales (at most state borders and other misc locations). A dually truck with a pickup bed is still a pickup as far as I and most others are concerned. Put a 40' 5th wheel trailer behind the dually and load it up and just drive past the scales.

The scales usually only check axle weights. On the big trucks maximum is 20,000# per axle and 34,000# for a set of duall axles. The small dually pickups and flatbeds are way below that. You are still suposed to comply with your maximum axle weight or tire capacity. If your trailer axles and tires are ok for the trailer load you should be good to go. Lots of the Hot shots out there hauling 3 or 4 vehicles and loaded 40 foot trailers going through many states so would not think there is anything illegal.

Keith Richards

08-15-2004, 10:58

The thing I'd also be scared about is a tire blowing out in the rear.Just pay close attention to how much weight your tires are designed for.You can get extra heavy duty tires that should be allright.I'm looking into some for myself.I'ts better if you have a weight distributing hitch too,definately with that load.good luck.

sv56

01-04-2005, 21:25

Two racing porsches are going to be less than 6000 lb. With tools, fuel, EZ ups, etc, figure no more than 8000lb. That's not going to make any 30' flatbed break a sweat.

NJ has had a lot of strange automotive laws, like State Troopers doing tech inspections on race cars, etc. I'd bet whoever issued the caution had experience with loads over 30' that aren't an RV, or something like that. The local DMV ought to have all the info required.

dcalex

01-05-2005, 20:03

I agree with the others in-so-far as the vehicle is concerned. Sounds like you'll be within legal limits. However, you'll want to check your licensing requirements. For instance in Calif. any trailer over 10,000 lbs., or any combination over 26001 lbs. requires a commercial drivers license.I would assume most states have something close.....it's worth a look. As mentioned earlier a search for the DOT in your state should bring up the info you'll need.
Good Luck

J-M

01-06-2005, 17:44

You need to check with the local dmv office. The truck needs to be taged for the combined weight of the truck and trailer combo. If GVWR of the truck is 10k and the trailers GVWR is 12k your tags need to rated at 22k. Also check the classification of your drivers license. In most stated if the trailer you are towing is over 10001 # gvwr you need a class A license. Alot of states are getting preety tight on this law. Also if you are hauling the cars to a show to win money or even a blue ribbon you may need a comercial drivers license, even though you are just driving a pickup truck.

cos

01-19-2005, 17:32

As a former police officer, and currently the owner of a trucking business, maybe I can lend a hand. There is a balance that needs to be achieved. The plate on your truck only needs to be classified according to the gvwr of the truck, not the truck and trailer. The plate on the trailer needs to be classified according to the trailers gvwr. Technically, when loaded, your truck and trailer and all cargo can not weigh more than your trucks GCVWR (gross combined vehicle weight rating)and all axles on the truck and trailer need to be within manufacturers specified gross weight ratings. So on your truck, I think the gcvwr is about 23k. Go to a truck scale, spend $8 and weigh the combo, if you are not over 23k (or whatever your gcvwr is) then look at individual axles. The door sticker will give you your individual allowed axle weights. Your weigh ticket will tell you what each individual axle is coming in at. If you are not over, then get on your way!! Some states will require all trucks to stop at wiegh stations, others only trucks over certain declared weights need to stop, and others won't require you to stop at all. I can tell you though, if you are under 26K combined weight, most weigh stations are not concerned with you. I'm not saying all, I'm saying most. Personal experience tells me that if I'm going through Missouri or Nevada, I know im getting stopped, whether I'm legal or not. Usually they'll just check to see that you are properly insured, and valid. If you tell them that you are running commercially for a business - have your log books ready. They are gonna watch you like a hawk. Guys that run hotshot are giving one ton trucks a bad name. Stations know that these guys are an easy target for being overweight, overloaded, and not rested.

Any more questions, feel free to ask. You should be fine though....

J-M

01-19-2005, 18:13

It seems that different states have different laws,and it depends on who you talk to.I wish I could get two DMV officers to agree on how the law reads. Here in North Carolina when you buy trailer tags they are not weighted.You must have the truck tagged for the combined weight of truck and trailer.What does the Fedral law state on this? It is just too dag gone confusing.

dcalex

01-19-2005, 21:08

Cos:
Maybe you can shed some light on a spin-off of this. Different states have different requirements in trailers. For instance when they need brakes....in Cal. it's 84" wide or better and/or 7,000 lbs Gross trailer weight (I think thats right)......these trailers also are required to carry the emergency diamond markers, and be equiped with break-away, etc. Other states have different requirements....some of them are really far away from this, and others are even more stringent. My question is this.....doesn't all the states honor the requirements of the licensing state irrespective of the requirements in their own state.,i.e, a California compliant and licensed trailer would be compliant anywhere?

J-M

01-22-2005, 08:53

Yeah, what he said! In Georgia most trailers do not even have tags. So what then?

carco

01-22-2005, 17:25

Ohio requires brakes and breakaway units on all trailers over 2000# actual scale weight, not GVW rateing. Federal limit I believe is 3000#. I believe Ohio would probabley require the Federal standard as minimum to pass through the state. also if the truck GVWR + trailer GVWR is over 26000# and trailer is over 10000 GWR then CDL drivers license is required. Ohio is chking 4500,5500,450 and 550's pulling trailers for proper drivers licenseing. bob.......

rickdlance

01-23-2005, 08:12

Originally posted by cos:
As a former police officer, and currently the owner of a trucking business, maybe I can lend a hand. There is a balance that needs to be achieved. The plate on your truck only needs to be classified according to the gvwr of the truck, not the truck and trailer. The plate on the trailer needs to be classified according to the trailers gvwr. Technically, when loaded, your truck and trailer and all cargo can not weigh more than your trucks GCVWR (gross combined vehicle weight rating)and all axles on the truck and trailer need to be within manufacturers specified gross weight ratings. So on your truck, I think the gcvwr is about 23k. Go to a truck scale, spend $8 and weigh the combo, if you are not over 23k (or whatever your gcvwr is) then look at individual axles. The door sticker will give you your individual allowed axle weights. Your weigh ticket will tell you what each individual axle is coming in at. If you are not over, then get on your way!! Some states will require all trucks to stop at wiegh stations, others only trucks over certain declared weights need to stop, and others won't require you to stop at all. I can tell you though, if you are under 26K combined weight, most weigh stations are not concerned with you. I'm not saying all, I'm saying most. Personal experience tells me that if I'm going through Missouri or Nevada, I know im getting stopped, whether I'm legal or not. Usually they'll just check to see that you are properly insured, and valid. If you tell them that you are running commercially for a business - have your log books ready. They are gonna watch you like a hawk. Guys that run hotshot are giving one ton trucks a bad name. Stations know that these guys are an easy target for being overweight, overloaded, and not rested.

Any more questions, feel free to ask. You should be fine though.... I take offense to the last part of this statement. I and my family run 3 pickups, and have every thing needed to do it legally and safely. The cost to do this legally is more than an 18 wheeler. We also have to meet or exceed all of their regulations. There are people in all occupations not doing things right. Don't single out us!

dcalex

01-23-2005, 19:20

Ohio requires brakes and breakaway units on all trailers over 2000# actual scale weight, not GVW rateing. Federal limit I believe is 3000#. I believe Ohio would probabley require the Federal standard as minimum to pass through the state. This is a good example of what I mean with all the different states and their requirements...didn't even think about Fed requirements. A 2000# unladen trailer is a pretty good sized trailer....a rule of thumb for the average car hauler is 1700#'s. That would usually be with two 3500# axles (7,000# gross)...a 3,000# trailer should be in the 12,000# gross category.

Craig M

01-24-2005, 07:12

Hey Rick

I was surprised to see you list Nevada as a state to watch out for. I lived in Nevada for a short time and drive through it frequently. The scales there are rarely open in Nevada. I have personally had to problems with Nevada. The same cannot be said of New Mexico, Colorado or Arizona.

rickdlance

01-24-2005, 13:40

Craig M, that was a quote from cos . I have not had any trouble there either.

carco

01-24-2005, 15:21

I posted that fed 3000# would probabely be used for out of state trailers, but I am prob wrong. We have a customer that pulls trailers behind box trucks that are legal length in most states but in Ind and Maryland and parts of Ga. the company receives citations for overlenght combination. So based upon this, I believe Ohio would use the 2000# limit for brakes and brakeaway kits on out of state trailers. bob........

dcalex

01-24-2005, 17:04

Yeah Carco, that may be true, but it,s still a good example of all the differences. I found a website once that had all the requirements for the different states and it struck me how far apart they were when you got into brakes and break-a-ways. I went to Iowa last August to bring a tractor back to Cal. No trouble anywhere at all, but I had all the equipment anyway. I wonder what would have happened if I didn't have say....the break-a-way. I had to stop at scales in Colorado, New Mexico, and Kansas and I wonder what would have happened if I didn't have them?...I said I had to stop......thats not quite right.....Colorado....no question about it "All tow vehicles" or some such wording that was very clear.....New Mexico was ambiguous in their wording so I stopped....they looked, but didn't weigh......Kansas was ambiguous too, so I stopped and they did weigh me, but I noticed other pickups going by the scales. My general rule of thumb is that if I'm not sure, I stop and let them weigh me if they want to. If they don't, they just wave me through...no big deal. Better safe than sorry. I still think though that if your licensed and compliant for the licensing state, your good for all of them.....just wish I could find an authoritive source to verify that though.

Craig M

01-25-2005, 08:59

dcalex

I know the same as your state rules does not work. Going through New Mexico a few year ago, had a truck and trailer with California Historical Plates. In California you are not considered a commercial vehicle if you have the Historical Plates. New Mexico would not accept my non commercial Historical Plates and required me to get a one trip permit as a commercial vehicle to drive through the state. I argued for a while, but eventually paid up to get out of the scales and on my way.

dcalex

01-26-2005, 13:33

Now thats really weird.....talk about taking it to the limit. Okay....lets try this....and I'm not trying to start an argument, but am really trying to figure it all out. Your example is a good one that argues for the "state that you are in applies". But what about emissions for an example of the alternative. California has tough emission laws many other states don't have. No Ca. emissions....no Ca. license...period. Yet other states vehicles can drive in Ca. with their own licensing. See what I mean.....gets awful gray out there. I guess I'll do some research on this and see if I can come up with something definitive. Most ;ilely it'll muddy things up more. :eek:

Craig M

01-26-2005, 16:08

Emissions and different State rules are not a problem. Once register in one state you can drive all over the the good old USA. Even California does not restrict non California licensed vehicles from driving through. As this tread shows, weight and trailer rules vary from state to state. Diesel fuel rules also vary from state to state. Weather commercial, or non commercial can cause various problems with diesel powered trucks. Have had to get diesel use permits in Washington and Colorodo to just drive through.

dcalex

01-27-2005, 15:55

Have had to get diesel use permits in Washington and Colorodo to just drive through.
Now thats the first time I ever heard of that. Can you elaborate.....how do they know, who issues them, cost, where would you be that they would ask about them, etc?

By-the-way, I spent most of yesterday afternoon researching all this and got no where....as a matter of fact it just gets muddier and muddier. Found some things you wouldn't believe....New Hampshire doesn't even regulate when/if you need brakes, brake lights, turn signals, clearance lights. I'm assuming they fall back on some other laws/regs....maybe Federal....interesting.

cos

01-30-2005, 16:16

Lets face it, at the end of the day, it all depends on who you run into, and what they want to check you for. As I stated, I am a former police officer, and never once did I check for a break-away on a trailer, or proper reflectors, but some officers just may. DCALEX - you are right, states should honor your home states rules, but sometimes thats just not so. Federal law will always supercede, so when in doubt use that. RICKDLANCE - read my post again... i am not singling out one ton drivers, I have two on the road myself, I said stations are looking at us. I've personally been interrogated at weigh stations, and I quote "We here in Missouri crack down on you guys because youre always overweight, underlicensed, and under rested" That was from a real happy stop I had on a recent trip. The fact is, a lot of hot shot rigs are running illegal, and DOT authorities are beginning to recognize that. Believe me, I know what it costs to run legal, but if someone wants to nit pick, they can always find something wrong. Do you know how many inches you need to have between your trailers stop lamps and reflective tape? Are you up to speed on the connection point of your trailers safety chains? There are a million rules that need to be followed, and no matter how hard you try, some DOT know it all is gonna prove you wrong on something. So again, i'm not picking on hot shot rigs as I run a couple, im saying others are.

Craig M

01-31-2005, 08:00

Diesel use permits are typically only for commercial vehicles. Diesel RV's or pickups that can bypass the scales should not have to worry about diesel use permits. My Historical licensed truck looks like a commercial truck. I Go through the scales to be safe. Washington required me to get a "diesel use permit" to drive my diesel rig in their state. I had to get a permit in Colorado. Forget if it was for diesel fuel or a one trip permit. Commercial trucking companies have the required permits to by diesel an operate in the various states. An individual commercial driver (Hot shot or whatever) needs various permits in various states.

GMC-YA

02-16-2005, 17:39

I'm planning a trip out west(NV. CO.ect) but here in N.Y. all pick up are tagged with commercial plates, do you think I'll have any problems with fuel permits? Fines for something stupid like that would really suck!!

Craig M

02-17-2005, 07:39

If you have just a pickup you are 100% ok. Will not have to stop at any scales. If you have a small trailer still ok. If you have a very heavy trailer, then some states might want you to stop at the scales. Weather you do or not is up to you, you might state ignorance of other state's rules. "Commercial" plates on a pickup that is not used commercially should not give you any problems. Drive and have fun.

Steve N AZ

02-26-2005, 19:58

Wow I had no idea towing a gooseneck would be so much fun! I just purchased a 3500 dually to tow a 3 car hauler 50' tripple axle. The trailer is loaded with 16' cargo trailers each wieghing in at 4250# So 12,750 plus the wieght of the trailer in the 6000 to 7000# range..lets see this thing could weigh 19,750#, now figure the weight of the truck. Ooops Think I'm a little over... Trip is starting in CA ending in AZ

You think I'll be looked at? I do

Craig M

02-28-2005, 07:25

Hey Steve

That should be a good test of your dually. You should have 18,000# or so on your trailer wheels. If axles are 6000# rated and tires 3000# capacity (assuming 6 tire trailer), then scales will have no issue with that. The visual impact of three containers behind a dually may be a bit much for some CHP's officers at the scales. Gross combined weight might concern them. California does say "to pickups throught the scales" at the entry to most scales, so you might try that. Unfortunately a new law says any vehicle over a certain weight (which I believe you will surpass) should go into the scales. Being from Arizona you can state ignorance of that regulation and say you read the sign prior to the scales that specifically said "no pickups".

Steve N AZ

03-02-2005, 22:48

Well I'll let you know how it goes. Will be making the trip Friday. I know the trailer has 3 7000# axles so I'm okay on the trailer.

I did notice the No Pickups sign at the scales, however not sure what AZ POE will be like. I'll go for it and see what happens.

Thanks

Craig M

03-03-2005, 12:46

Good luck Steve. I do not know what Arizona's rules for truck/pickups is. Many states have gone to pure Gross Weight for determining who should go into the scales. In California a lot of guys with duallys and pickup beds bypass the scales no matter what their weight is as per the "no pickups" signs.

HTS

03-04-2005, 08:37

Towing across statelines always makes you more susceptable to the rules. Whether you are commercial or not, the fact is you are legally limited to the posted rating of the vehicle. I have an '03 dually Duramax with a factory rating of GCVW 22,000 lbs, so I am registered for 22K. My insurance co would have registered me for 26,000 if I had told them to, the registry would have registered me for 26,000, no questions asked, but if I were to get a thorough inspection, and the trooper noticed the door tag saying 22K and I scaled at 24,000, I could have a serious problem, but having said that, I see guys running up and down the highways in other states, pulling 5th wheel wedges with 4 vehicles. There is no way that they are legal. If you chose to go over, you maynot get caught, but if you are ever involved in an accident, it could change your life.

HTS

03-04-2005, 08:51

Diesel Use Permits are not required on vehicles under 26,001 lbs. Send me an email, I'd be happy to fax you the rule. Michael@harristransportservices.com

cos

03-04-2005, 19:03

Yeah, those guys running one ton trucks with wedge traiers and 4 cars on top dont have an ice cubes chance in hell of making weight. They are an easy target. I dont know how they can keep doing that, and stay in business/keep a truck running after the bad beatings???

Steve N AZ

03-05-2005, 10:37

Made the trip just fine, got in last night. I'm not in the business of hauling for a living, like a commercial driver. We have equipment mounted in 16' box trailers that we use for work. When working out of State, we either tow 3 with separate trucks, or 3 on a piggy back hauler with one truck. Trailers and the tow truck all marked with company name. Very visible!

I heard that if your not for hire, you should post signs stating that. It seemed to help; crossing into AZ I-10 from Blythe, I got the sign to pull into the scales...well ok here comes the education, in I go. I pull up to the scales, officer there looked at the trailer, looked at me and asked where I was headed (Phx), nodded and looked at my sign and said "not for hire, huh" I said yup, the reply was "have a safe trip". Whew..but now I'm wondering what the scale said.

I hit the scales in Phx last night after refueling (54 gal tank). 28,400 lbs HELLO!!

So... I need some serious Jenny Craig work here. Weighing the truck minus trailer today, then the hauler minus the cargo to see whats what.

Other than that, the truck towed great. Little slow up the hills (38 MPH up the hill out of Palm Springs and 45 to 50 on the others) And 75 to 80 in AZ flat areas.

Used 5th gear in Tow/Haul mode, O/D lock out on the hills to prevent hunting on the smaller hills.

Juice/Attitude was a huge help: Easy to hit 1350 EGT in level 0 on the steep hills. Easy to drop 50 to 100 degrees by a 1% to 3% reduction in throttle with no noticable speed loss. (I used just about every display setting on the Attitude, just wish I could view them all at once)

Trans temp never exceeded 190 (Was in the 50's/60's outdoors and rain here and there). Eng temp however would creep up to 220 pretty easy (per Attitude reading - also tells me the factory gauge lags way behind in telling you your getting hot "Dangerously lagging") Temp hit 230 once factory gauge was maybe inidicating 210 but rising. Fan clutch would kick in and within 10 seconds would drop to 208.

Ran pretty hard from Palm Springs to Phx (All up hill and then 75 to 80 MPH in AZ) 6.7 MPG I would expect 7 to 9 if I stayed 65 or under. In AZ I ran the Edge on level 1, tried #2 - #2 ran at 1300 EGT, so used 1 the rest of the way.

Truck didn't miss a beat. Love that transmission.

Just need to lose 2000 to 3000 LBS somewhere.

Even stock: don't tow heavy without gauges!!

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