pin weight

[Murray the Cop]

I have a 2003 2500 4x4 D/A extended cab and long bed. I am looking into a fith wheel trailer with a pin weight of 2000 pounds.Can this truck handle the pin weight?Thanks.

[Sneaks]

Good lord yes! Your payload is about 3500 lbs and your hitch won't add more than about 250 lbs. to that pinweight. Unless, of course, you and your passengers are major MAJOR heavyweights and you carry spare gold bullion ingots under the rear seat.

[Murray the Cop]

Thanks. I red the post on GVWR and "won't goof again" wrote something about a pin weight of 1500lbs and how he would be over the limit. I can't seem to get all the G abbreviations either.

[Colorado Kid]

3500# payload is a bit of a stretch.
GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) is 9200#

To have a payload of 3500# your empty weight would have to be 5700#, and I promise it's havier than that.

Having said that 2000# pin weight is easily within the capability of any GM 2500HD that doesn't have a gaint lift or a utility box full of tools or something similarly heavy aboard.

In my 2WD Short Bed 6 speed (all lighter choices than your truck) I can put 1000# of family and gear and 2000# of pin weight and still be a fuzz under the GVWR.

[Murray the Cop]

I just had the truck weighed at a scrap metal yard. Slip reads 6700 with the boy in it. Seems funny that it would be exactly even at 6700. The scale might only read to the 100lb mark. I should have asked but anyway I am gonna be awfull close to the GVWR if not over with me the wife and what ever I store in the front of the camper under the bedroom. In fact it leaves me about 175 lbs for gear.Not much room at all.I know the weights printed in a brochure are probably off a little but that means it could actually be heavier.

[arveetek]

If you're looking at a fifth-wheel with a pin weight of 2000 lbs, then the entire trailer must be weighing in close to 20,000 lbs. I guesstimated this number by realizing that most trailers are built with a pin/tongue weight of 10 to 12% of the total vehicle weight. If I'm right about that, then that's way too large of a trailer to be towing with a 3/4 ton.

Not only do you need to factor in the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of the truck, but you must also keep in mind the Gross Axle Weight Rating, or how much the rear axle is rated to handle. You need to find the rating of your rear axle, and deduct the weight of your truck on the rear axle from that rating, and whatever is leftover is how much pin weight you can handle. Plus, you need to figure out how much weight your tires can handle using the same method.

Sounds like a 3500 dually would be much better suited for that load.

Casey

[tanker]

I think we are confusing GVWR "gross vehicle weight rating" and GCWR "gross combined weight rating" GVWR is the max that the truck can weigh loaded, with driver, fuel, payload, etc. GCWR is truck and trailer combined. For example a 2003 Holiday Rambler 32RLT 5th wheel travel trailer has a pin weight of 2070lbs, and a GVWR "gross vehicle weight rating" of 14,400 lbs. Your 2500HD 4x4 D/A has I assume a 9200 GVWR, and a payload of 3380lbs. It can tow a 5th wheel trailer weighing 15,500lbs. So take the 2070lbs off your 3380 payload which leaves you 310lbs of payload on the truck. and leaves you 1100 lbs for combined weight, which you would load into the trailer. Your GM dealer has information on towing, giving GVWR, GCWR, etc. You are best not to overload your axles or your combined weight. You do want to be safe for all concerned. Hope I did not confuse the issue. ;)

[Wont Goof Again]

GCWR - Gross Combined Weight Rating. This is the total weight that can be pulled by the truck and includes that weight of the truck, trailer, people, fuel, options, etc. For 2500HD: 22,000 lbs.

GVWR - Gross Vehicle Weight Rating - there'll be one for the truck and one for the trailer. This is the total weight that can be carried by the truck or trailer. For 2500HD: 9,200 lbs.

Pin weight of trailer - should be 15 - 25 % of wet trailer weight for fifth wheel trailers. The entire pin weight of the trailer is carried by the truck.

Weight of the truck... most people who have posted their truck's weight have stated that a 2500HD D/A 4x4 Crew Cab shortbox weighs around 7000 lbs depending on options and the size of the driver :rolleyes: . Remember the diesel engine is heavier than a gasser - and the Allison is heavier than the manual. Glossy brochure curbe weights are with a 6.0 gasser and a 5 spd manual!

Weight of 5th wheel trailer... let's pick a nice round number: GVWR 10,000 lbs. This means that the total weight of the trailer, options, fishing gear, toys, etc can be up to 10,000 lbs. If 20 % of the trailer's weight is the pin weight, then there will be 2,000 lbs of the trailer's 10,000 lbs carried by the truck.

So.... doing some quick math:
GVWR of truck - truck weight - pin weight = amount of additional weight the truck can carry
9,200 - 7,000 - 2,000 = 200 lbs <- for additional passengers and anything else carried by the truck e.g., extra fuel tank, tools, the weight of the 5th wheel hitch, etc. Note that the GCWR is still OK - 10,000 + 7,000 = 17,000 lbs which is less than 22,000 lbs.

For my situation, I have a D/A Crew Cab Long Box which weighs in around 7,200. If I buy a 5th wheel with a pin weight of 2,000 lbs, bring the family along ~300 lbs, then the truck's total weight is 9,500 lbs - which is greater than the GVWR of 9,200 lbs.

[DonG]

Wont Goof Again,

Your data is correct. The pin weight for fifth wheels should be about 20% of the total trailer weight. The number Casey quoted of about 12%, is more acccurate for travel trailers.

The pin weight on my trailer was the reason I changed my mind from a 2500HD to a 3500 dually. The stability of the duals that I gained insured I never regretted my decision.

Don

[Murray the Cop]

Truck 6700 with full tank and son. Add 350 for me and the wife we're at 7050. Add the 2000 pin weight and that leaves me at 9050. Allthough these are unloaded weights,they can be kept very close by loading the front and rear evenly.My main concern is safety of the family. The other weights are close but under the ratings.The dry weight is 9240 and the GVWR of the camper is 12000 and I'm sure in all the years of camping I have not collected 2690lbs of gear clothes food etc included. Opinions on wether or not to buy this camper? Three to four trips a year and only one out of state.

[GBurton]

There is one more thing that you can do and that is to change tire size. I think the 2003's also came with 245 size tires. You can safely increase the size to 265's and pick up additional tire weight rating. While that will not increase the GVWR of the truck as it came from GM, it will provide a larger margin of safety as far as the tires are concerned. If you will look at the axle ratings as posted on your door, you will find that the rear axle is rated at exactly twice the max rating of the 245 tires that came on the truck from GM. FYI, the new SRW 1 ton trucks come with 265 tires for the higher tire weight rating.

George

[Craig M]

Be careful on tire sizes. Tire size has little correlation to tire capacity. Load range gives tire capacity. You can get a 35 psi Load range C 265 tire. Load range C is not for towing, is for passenger tires. Load range E and F are the minimum one wants for towing. These are usually 95 psi rated tires. If one is within a specific load range, then going wider will usually get an increase in tire capacity. A number of years ago went looking for a high capacity tire for a Suburban. Liked the look of the 265 tires, but could not get a load range E or F with 265. Ended up with a 245. There may be better 265 tires available now, but check the Load rating.

[DmaxMaverick]

Murray

First of all, it appears that the trailer you are looking at will very likely be under the gross requirements in all respects.

Another thing to address is hitch placement. You have a long truck, EC/LB. This gives you some discretion with your hitch placement. My truck is a short bed, which limits me to a pin location of 1" forward of the rear axle. This doesn't allow much pin weight to the front axle. The combination of the longer wheel base, and a long bed gives you much more flexibility as to your weight displacement. If you are having your trailer dealer install the hitch, they should take this into consideration. A good shop will "balance" it out for you, allowing for a generous amount of cargo.

The bottom line is, if you are deliberate with the loading of the trailer, and the hitch placement, you will have no problems keeping the weights in check. Loading the trailer properly is a key, also. It is easy to transfer several hundred pounds off the pin, and onto the trailer axle. Moving 100#'s from the front of the trailer to the rear will yield about 150-200#'s less pin weight, depending on the from/to locations. The drawback is that weight is transferred to the trailer axle, so you have to watch that.

As to the "posted" weights of the trailer, they are generally very conservative. The dry weight of a trailer is the weight before any the upgrades are added on the "options" list, and anything you add (clothing, bedding, cookware, utensils, furniture, BBQ, fishing tackle, food, etc). This weight usually excludes fluids (fresh and waste), custom cabinets, furniture, TV, microwave, generator, and in some case, even the spare tire or power landing gear. The only way to know how much it really weighs, is to weigh it. Unless they weigh it (not likely), your dealer won't have a clue what it weighs.

In regards to the tire size/ratings. Internal volume and ply rating determines the actual weight rating. The greater the ply rating or "air" volume, the greater the weight rating of the tire. A "D" rated 285/75/16 at 65 PSI has a greater rating than an "E" rated 245/75/16 at 80 PSI. The 265/75/16E tire has a rating 400#'s more than the OEM tires. These numbers don't change what is printed on the door sticker, but offers peace of mind if you do fudge over a little. Don't worry about the rear axle, it's rated by the manufacturer (AAM) at 10,400#'s, single or dual.

For reference, my 5'er is just under 12K and I tow it with my '01 2500HD. It's on the second set of problem-free 285/75/16D's Bridgestone Dueler tires. The pin weight varies between 1600 to 2000. It's pretty predictable, depending on how I load the trailer. I was "scale crazy" early on because it is so heavy. Don't worry about it anymore. Never had any problems with weight issues or mechanical shortfalls. I wouldn't tow it with anything less, though. I've towed similar trailers with "older" 1 ton trucks (of various makes). None of them did as well overall, regardless of "weight rating".

Good luck with your choice.

[Murray the Cop]

Thanks to all so far. DmaxMaverick,they tell me the true weight after all options are installed is printed in the camper somewhere. This one is in the kitchen cabinet. It reads 9200,which is less than the printed brochure weight.Which made me think that the pin weight might also be off. I realize now that these numbers don't mean much and weighing it myself will be the final answer.I am interested in the pin placement to relieve the weight. The hitch is already installed in the truck from a previous camper,that was considerably lighter.Any further suggestions on this would be appreciated.My only concern is GVWR and I am already looking into the air bag suspension.The way I see it I am at the limit with all equiptment,family and fuel before loading the camper.GVWR rating,not axel or anything else.Thanks