Have I bit off more than my truck can chew? [Archive]

DmaxMaverick

04-23-2004, 17:42

That's a lot of weight, as well as profile, for a stock truck.

If you aren't interested in the intercooler upgrade, consider a water mist system. Much less expensive, and, IMO, better than an intercooler. The drawback would be the high volume of water needed. I've heard of folks plumbing their RV fresh water storage to the truck for the mist. Easy setup. Pressurized water on tap. I've considered doing it myself. It would be simple enough with a boost operated regulator. Guess that's another subject.

Cooling should not be a problem. I'd suggest getting your hands on a JK fan clutch. If not, be sure yours is working well. Clean the outer surfaces of the radiator. A lot of debris can get built up between the A/C condensor and radiator, restricting the airflow and insulating the heat in.

Just don't get in too big of a hurry, and drive by the gages. If you don't already have one, consider a tranny temp gage. Keep your EGT's down, and the rest will stay in check. There's no shame in letting the late models pass you on the grades.

ktmracer

04-23-2004, 18:31

i`m right there w/ you man. we regularly tow a 5th wheel toy hauler that weighs in @ around 13,500lbs ready to go to the track.i am seriously considering the intercooler and larger exhaust.the truck has airide and a lot of other neat gadgets but no performance mods :(
we aren`t first to the top of the hill but we always seem to make it. just drive like you`ve got a little sense and watch the egts and engine temp and you should be fine.
i`ve had a chance to drive all the new trucks,ford,chevy,dodge, and they are killer strong but i just haven`t been able to make myself sign on the dotted line.(yet,anyway!!)

tanker

04-24-2004, 03:37

Steve, ever heard of the "little engine that could"? Well you will get there ;) a little slower than most. Keep an eye on your EGT's and as mentioned above, get an intercooler. Summer heat, big hills and a heavy load, don't mix too well.
Safety is also a concern.
There is a fellow near us that tows a tri-axle Travel Supreme 18,000# trailer with a 6.0 gasser. :rolleyes: So he is over 24,000lbs gross weight.
Good luck with your new home. smile.gif

rjschoolcraft

04-24-2004, 05:25

The intercooler is the only way to go if you are serious about towing. The water mist is a gimmicky band-aid that works for people who don't tow long distances much. There, that ought to get me in trouble. I've towed close to 10,000 miles already this year. The intercooler completely changed my Suburban.

99gmccrew

04-24-2004, 17:04

Guys, when I bought this truck 6 mos ago I told myself I would keep it for ten years. It now has 89k on it. I see that dmaxmaverick has 500k on his 6.2. That's incredible. Ronnie joe I remember when I first joined you suggested I look into an intercooler, but first get the gauges, intake and bigger exhaust. I took your advice RJ and I've done most of your suggestions and I'm extremely happy with the performance difference. I'm glad I've gotten the great advice from everyone. I think to make this truck, (that I really love),last ten years, I'm going to have to really consider putting on that intercooler. Who has them, how much do they cost, and can I do this myself. How long would it take to install? I've done all the minor mods myself. I've become pretty mechanical out of neccessity and not trusting mechanics with my vehicle. Thanks for all your help everyone.

rjschoolcraft

04-24-2004, 18:44

I use the Spearco unit that Kennedy sells. It is a straight forward installation, but requires some patience and a little intuition. The installation instructions from Spearco are not very good. In fact, they had mis-marked one of the tubes showing the flow in the wrong direction. After I figured that out, it went much more smoothly.

Turbotechnologies sells a smaller unit that is used on Tough Guy's project truck.

The Kennedy unit was $1300 while the TT unit is about $900 (IIRC). That sounds like a lot, but I have to say that I count it the best thing that I've done to my Suburban.

Spindrift

04-24-2004, 19:25

RonnieJoe,

What data do you have which would support your suggestion that mist injection is a gimmick?

No one can argue the obvious benefits that an intercooler can provide. However, I understand there is data that demonstrates specific advantages when using chemical mist injection: They include:
1. Efficiency - leaner air fuel ratio can be utilized for normal operation.
2. An increase in air charge densities which provides horsepower increase.
3. Relatively low cost of initial investment.
4. The moisture injested by the engine also participates in the combustion process as a super-heated steam, increasing the duration of the pressurization of the cylinder.

Depending on boost levels, the results of these benefits produce:
a. Intake charge cooling - A water only system will lower IAT by at least 170*, Water/methanol will lower IAT temps at least 200*. Methanol acts as a fuel as well as cooling the intake charge in this application.
b. EGT reduction of 100* - 250* is common
c. 18-70 HP increases. Some folks say even more.
d. Increased air charge densities of 3-5 psi

I'm certainly no expert on the topic, but these results are routinely reported by the few, reputable folks who are continually testing, improving and marketing mist injection systems AND Cummins and PS guys who for some reason (maybe because they're running at higher boost levels?) have been more eager than us to adopt this technology. Simply go to their forums and see for yourself.

Clearly, there are certain disadvantages associated with mist injection; the most noteable is the need to lug water on your back (a real PITA). But air-to-air intercoolers aren't perfect either. They are much less efficient at reducing air charge temperatures than mist injection systems.

I say run both systems, if you've got the caaaash. I think the bottom line is that they're two different systems with their own advantages and disadvantages. We're all big boys here and therefore have the ability to analyze both systems to determine what might work best in our particular situation. To suggest that all of those who have gone before and continue to see results from mist injection have relied on a "gimmicky band-aid" is being a bit harsh IMHO.

FYI...I understand that Jim is preparing a feature article on mist injection which is supposed to be out in the next month or so. Can't wait.

BTW RJ, it isn't my intent to start something. Personally, I need to do one or the other so I'm just as anxious as you, I think, to see more test results.

99gmccrew

04-24-2004, 20:51

Spindrift, you put up one heck of a counterpoint. Both systems sound like they have their advantages and disadvantages. I myself am swaying towards the intercooler simply because of the whole water tank problem and possibility of running out of water.

Your Burb sounds similar to my truck with mods done. Have you towed anything heavy with it?
If so, how'd it do. I haven't towed my new trailer yet, not delivered. Thanks

Turbine Doc

04-24-2004, 23:47

99Crew,
Lowering charge air for power is very beneficial it allows you to jack up boost & add fuel for more power, I run Kennedy's Spearco kit, I have hauled 12,600# loaded GN trailer with my highly modded 6.5 18,700# combined wt Here are some photos to go with the kit if you decide to install one Spearcos install instructions SUK

http://myweb.cableone.net/tbogemirep/

WMI may be as beneficial as IC; Bill Heath swears by his kit, I've not had him steer me wrong yet. For me having to fool with a tank and refilling H2O is too much a PITA, get the biggest IC you can fit-it's always on, and always cooling as soon as you get 10mph air across the IAT temps start dropping, as for efficiency my drop runs 150-200F, rarely if ever have I seen IAT above 120F, haven't summer towed a heavy load; all my towing thus far has been < 85F OAT.

rjschoolcraft

04-25-2004, 03:55

Spindrift,

First of all, there is truth in the things that you quote. I've always said that the physics of water mist injection are real. The superheated steam comment is dead on... as long as the water is metered properly for the particular power demand and engine load condition. However, none of the systems I've seen have that type of variable metering system that is controlled by demand parameters.

Second, I have personally been involved in applying this technology to a 7000 HP base gas turbine engine that was boosted by a three stage low pressure compressor to about 9000 HP. The WMI (or more precisely, water-alcohol injection) brought the full take-off power up to about 11000 HP. Significant, huh.

As I have pointed out over and over, though, those systems in aircraft use are only used for a boost during take-off...thereby gaining my "band-aid" comment. In this particular case that I speak of, it was added because the engine was not capable of meeting the take-off requirement without major redesign and the project didn't have time for that. Plus it was a demonstrator engine, meant to demonstrate the feasibility of another emerging technology. Plans for a production version did not include WMI.

Having speant many hours behind the wheel of my Suburban while towing heavy trailers, I've come to the conclusion that WMI is not appropriate for continuous use. All of the discussion I've seen is about a boost triggered system that does not come on utill around 10 psi of boost is achieved. In some parts of the country, towing the load that I tow, it would be on all the time (I've seen 11 psi sustained boost in Colorado and other western states) and the water supply would be crucial. I doubt that enough could be carried to really make it beneficial. People talk about 30 or 40 gallon tanks...that's 250 to 330 lb. of dead weight added to the rig when the tank is full. Further more, when running sustained boost levels of 8 or 9 psi, the system would not be on and the cooling effects would not be available. I've seen my egt's rise pretty high (pre-intercooler installation), as well as coolant temperatures, in just such instances.

With the intercooler, the cooling is there all the time, without me thinking about it. My egt's are significantly lower all across the board (average of about 350 F, some cases much more). For those who've installed WMI, I'm glad you're happy with it. I cannot believe that it is practical for anyone who tows significant miles per year for sustained periods of time. As I said in a much earlier post, I towed 996 miles in one day back in November. Started at Las Vegas, NV in the morning and stopped in western Kansas for the night. The only time boost levels dropped below 10 psi for the whole day was on decels on mountains. I sure would have hated to stop repeatedly to fill a water tank to keep my engine performing as desired.

How many over the road trucks use WMI? Think about it.

Turbine Doc

04-25-2004, 08:56

One more concern of mine with WMI has been water quality long term, whatever deposits, metals, minerals are in the water will be fed to your engine. Even with a filter on the water there is only so much "stuff" a filter can protect against.
It may be paranoia on my part, just one more of those things though which points me more toward IC over WMI.

The turbines I work on are a bit larger than the ones Ronnie Joe is talking about 5000 to 60,000 Hp depending on model but work identical; we use a type of WMI on stationary GT plants a water curtain that the engine pulls air through to lower OAT for more Hp on hot days continous duty.

One of our concerns is water quality, most sites have huge demineralizer and filtration "beds" to keep water as clean as possible. Even when waterwashing a turbines dirty compressor, demin water is the prefferred for wash and rinse.

For a tow vehicle requiring sustained cooling for me IC again better of the 2 IMO, WMI works does cost less than IC I am just happier with KISS systems, (keep it simple stupid), tanks-weight-clean water-valves-switches-pumps doesn't fit my idea of KISS for long term, just me feel free to disagree.

Ronnie 3 stage LPC??? what engine Pratt ???

[ 04-25-2004, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: tbogemirep ]

ibelyea

04-25-2004, 09:38

When I had my 98 extended cab, I pulled a 12,000 thruout the US. Spent a lot of time in WA.OR, ID and Montana using this rig.
I added Kennedy's Sperco IC (Large one and easy to install), Kennedy exhaust, Jet chip and a retuned pump to -2.04 offset. While it doesn't come close to my DMax it was very strong and durable. Just watch temps.

rjschoolcraft

04-25-2004, 09:55

TBO...

That particular engine was an Allison Model 578-DX. This was a demonstrator engine that was based on the Allison 570/571 engine which derived from the military T701 for the Heavy Lift Helicopter. The airframe never made it due to combining gearbox failures.

The 578-DX was used as a prop-fan demonstrator. If I could figure out how to post pictures, I'd post one. The basic T701/570 engine was boosted with a specially designed 3 stage compressor for the project. The engine flew on a McDonnell Douglas MD-80 out at Edwards AFB.

I spent the bulk of my time at Allison working on the Model 250 helicopter enigne. The 250-C40B produced 715 HP from a 275 lb. package. That's a power to weight ratio of 2.6:1. I designed the power train gears for the engine gearbox (along with many other components of that engine). The engine is used in the Bell Model 430 helicopter. Ron Baur flew a 430 (second production ship with the third and fourth production C40's) around the world establishing the current speed record for helicopter circumnavigation of the globe.

[ 04-25-2004, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

Turbine Doc

04-25-2004, 11:48

My apologies to the topic digression Jets are my 1st passion.

RJ
how many stages of LPT to drive the LPC, my only Allison experience is T-56 direct drive inputing to a gear set to turn a 2.5 MW gen set for ships power.

3 stages of LPC new to me, the LM6000 derivative of GE 80C-2 60Kshp has a 4 stage LPC ("booster" in aircraft engine terminology) driven by the LPT supercharging more or less the 14 stg HPC which is direct drive from the 2 stg HPT, during ramp up to load; the LPC air is bled off to about 30% power then blocker doors are closed to super charge the HPC/engine.

have you ever worked the T-700 GE that has a neat compressor axial into centrifugal.

JoeyD

04-25-2004, 16:09

Originally posted by ibelyea:
When I had my 98 extended cab, I pulled a 12,000 thruout the US. Spent a lot of time in WA.OR, ID and Montana using this rig.
I added Kennedy's Sperco IC (Large one and easy to install), Kennedy exhaust, Jet chip and a retuned pump to -2.04 offset. While it doesn't come close to my DMax it was very strong and durable. Just watch temps. What did the Jet chip do?

rjschoolcraft

04-25-2004, 18:34

The 578 had two stages of LPT driving the LPC...a two shaft engine, IIRC...that was about 15 years ago. I think there were two stages of high pressure turbine to drive the 14 stage high pressure compressor. The boost compressor was added specifically for the demonstrator program and had variable geometry vanes. We used the variable geometry to modulate flow through the boost compressor (and thereby, the amount of boost), not just to prevent surge during start. We later applied that technology to the lift fan system for the Joint Strike Fighter. You can read more about the Propfan engine here (http://vesuvius***c.nasa.gov/er/seh/profan.html) and here. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/q0067.shtml) The last photo (of the MD-80 at take-off) is of the system that I worked on.

I haven't worked on the T700, but the smaller version of the 250 (the Series II) has six stages of axial feeding one centrifugal compressor (C20B, C20F, C20J, etc.) or four stages of axial feeding one centrifugal (C20R). The compressor is driven by two stages of high pressure turbine (HPT) which is gas coupled to a two stage power turbine that connects through the engine gearbox, to the main rotor tansmission and to the main rotor in helicopters. The Gas Producer spool (HP spool) rotates at 51,000 rpm, while the Power Turbine spool rotates at 33,000 rpm (100%).

The T800 (for the now cancelled Comanche) has a two stage centrifugal compressor...that's a funny looking beast.

You mentioned the T56... That engine has been a workhorse since 1955 (coincident with the small block Chevy V8). The industrial engines that I'm consulting on now for Rolls (Allison) are derivatives of the T56. They share more than 80% common components.

Edit: The system doesn't like that first link that I posted. Here it is without the "URL" button... http://vesuvius***c.nasa.gov/er/seh/profan.html

Edit: Still doesn't like it. The three stars should be "dot jay ess". Hope this works.

[ 04-26-2004, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

a5150nut

04-25-2004, 20:17

The 250-C40B produced 715 HP from a 275 lb. package. That's a power to weight ratio of 2.6:1. :eek:

How could we hide this under the hood of a 94 K2500? :D

Turbine Doc

04-26-2004, 04:49

You could hide it but couldn't feed it, much as I love GTs they are thirsty.

rjschoolcraft

04-26-2004, 05:15

a5150...

You can find more out about this "little engine that could" at this site (http://www.rolls-royce.com/northamerica/business/default.htm). Click on "Model 250".

I tried to post the link directly, but it had a "dot jay ess" at the end and the system didn't like it again.

Spindrift

04-26-2004, 09:32

I'm not sure at what point we stray too far off topic here, but in an effort to at least achieve a little re-direction, and more lively discussion ;) , here goes.

rj...why don't you see water injection used in the commercial trucking industry?

I think first, and foremost, we don't see it on OTR trucks because commercial/big diesel rigs are designed with adequately sized intercoolers. Commercial trucks aren't designed and marketed for the general masses. Therefore, you don't often see manufacturers taking design shortcuts which would jeopardize the reputation of their product. Auto manufacturers on the other hand...

I have to ask you this question. Why is there a pressure drop in the 6.5 after the installation of an air-to-air intercooler?

I think it might have to do with the size of the IC that is being used on our engines. We can only install what will fit. That doesn't mean it's the correct size. If you restrict intake air flow, you decrease boost pressure and that equals a decrease in net benefit. I've read information (nothing scientific) that suggests an air-to-air intercooler is 50-65% efficient. I wish I could find comparable info for water injection.

I'm still of the opinion that these two systems have their distinct advantages and disadvantages and it's all about sizing up your specific application and going from there.

I've not heard of anyone using a 30-40 gallon tank in their truck, but then, nothing amazes me anymore. Most of what I've seen is in the 8-12 gallon range, and one 18 gallon. The smaller water tanks are supposed to be providing folks a range of two, diesel tank re-fuelings at 10+ psi.

Give me a minute to put on my body armor.

OK...I'm ready. Fire away. :D

ropinfool

04-26-2004, 11:00

Boy you guys talking turbines are making me homesick!!!! I've been out of the turbine world for a year, now working on 12 cyl Waukesha nat. gas fired generator sets. Hate the recip. world. I'd be out of my league trying to discuss the above with you but at least I did recognize and understand the acronyms. I've worked the LM2500, TM2500, LM5000, LM6000 w/sprint, nox and smec, Lycoming TF-40B and Sunstrand T-62-T. What does it take to come home?????? :( :( :( JOhn

Turbine Doc

04-26-2004, 15:27

Spin I got with MP for ronniejoes contact info for a little self indulgent turbine talk, so as to not monopolize the Diesel forum. Anyway IC vs WMI no right answer for the 6.5 I'm thinking, both are after the end result lower IAT is key regardless how you achieve that goal.

A properly sized IC should have been part of GM's plan from day one, but as they had a need to "go to market now" & compete against the other guys offerings they more or less popped a turbo on a 6.2, bored it and we wind up with 6.5 TD yes I know it was more than that.

I don't think the 2 psi loss across the big Spearco, (I don't know about samller ICs, never seen or had one) is that much of a deal; the GM-8 more than makes up for it, I can still peg the needle, 15+ my Banks kit gauge only goes to 15.

My PCM clips boost or fuel don't know which does what when(chicken or egg), back to about 7-8 at cruise speeds, climbing up hard hill or long grades boost pegs again until extra power isn't needed then backs off to 7-8 or 10 if towing heavy with JK control or Turbo Master.(BTW TM without JK sets boost code on my rig at about 12 psi)

GMCTD also found that too much boost is somewhat counterproductive as to get boost that high, WG must be fully shut adding backpressure, my own observations with a tap on my blocked EGR port confirms that pressure in the exhaust goes as high as 30psi.

So how much energy are you losing to try to overcome that kind of exhaust head at high boost levels. It would be good to get that data up for discusion.

RF(John) my number & email are still good if you wanna talk turbines www.geae.com/engines/marine/index.html (http://www.geae.com/engines/marine/index.html) for latest GE Marine GT news or to rekindle your Navy memories

99gmccrew

04-26-2004, 19:59

Hey Ktmracer,
Thanks for the positive feedback.
I see you've got a 2000. Did you have any trouble overheating when pulling your toybox? I put on the larger exhaust and better intake. I hope this helps me, I'll be posting again once I pull this monster trailer and let you all know how it did.
Glad I have the gauges to watch!

ktmracer

04-27-2004, 02:23

if you keep your foot hard in it in long pulls it will heat up. in fact it will heat up anyway a little. just remember to back off the throttle until the truck no longer feels like it is TRYING to accelerate and doesn`t feel like it`s slowing down anymore. kind of a happy medium and it keeps you from overfueling,(read heating up) the engine.i myself am at this very moment trying to figure out whether to do the exhaust and intercooler or buy a new truck.i need my truck regularly and can`t afford to be without it long.keep us posted on what you do.

ropinfool

04-27-2004, 09:04

Tim, I seem to have lost your numbers. You can email me at robertsonthego at msn dot com. John

ibelyea

04-28-2004, 13:37

The jet chip was a product that John Kennedy offered to provide more power. It required that I have the entire ECM sent back to have it programmed. For a while I didn't think it did much, until I lost a valve and the local dealer installed new ones and set the engine up as it was supposed to run. After valve fix, I got 13 PSI, and 1200 EGT. Truck ran much better and pulled the trailer. The chip was only part of the improvement. The exhaust and intercooler made the biggest difference.

99gmccrew

05-05-2004, 21:28

Well,I drove the new 12,500 lb trailer home today.
The truck drove great around town, a little hairy making right turns. You really have to anticipate and take everything as wide as you can. Once I got on the freeway noticed the truck felt like it was really working hard. The boost never got much below 5 psi. The egt's, on level ground went from between 400-500 with no load on level ground, to around 800-900. When I got to a pretty good grade my egts got real high to 1100-1200 when I downshifted into third gear. It wasn't even hot today. I can imagine what is going to happen in the desert this summer. This was just a short 16 mile jount. I've got the intercooler ordered! I hope it helps. Thanks

rjschoolcraft

05-06-2004, 18:48

The intercooler will be HUGE! You'll like it. ;) I would also suggest a boost controller from Kennedy now that you'll be able to use it! It's always something! :D

99gmccrew

05-09-2004, 22:07

Thanks for all the help and encouragement.
I feel my truck performance has gotten much better due to the contributions of the members of this great website.
Steve

99gmccrew

06-06-2004, 22:12

I got my intercooler installed in about 8 hours. It wasn't that bad, just took a little patience and ingenuity. I bought the biggest Intercooler that I could fit between the framerails. I also bought some mandrel bent tubing to plumb the IC in to the truck, along with some silicone connectors and t-bolt clamps. I took the truck for a test run (not loaded) and I was amazed at how low the egt's were. While driving around town and up a few hills my egt's were at about 300F. That's about half what they were before. I cant wait to see what happens while towing. I bought all the parts on ebay and the whole system cost me about $550.00. The intercooler is a bar and plate style and the core measures 18 x 12 x 3 with 3" ports. The overall length is 25". I love it.

Turbine Doc

06-07-2004, 00:08

99
Some BTDT advise drive it around some then go back & recheck T bolt clamps, check periodically nothing worse than to be accelerating in traffic and one of the IC hoses blow off and boost goes to 0, nothing sicker than a 6.5 without boost, purely gutless without it.

JoeyD

06-07-2004, 13:24

99gmccrew, Where did you get the intercooler? Any pictures?

99gmccrew

06-07-2004, 21:07

Joey D, I got everything on ebay. The intercooler, 2.5" tubing, silicone connectors and t-bolt clamps. The installation went fairly smooth. It is pretty time consuming, but it is basically just a plumbing job on your truck. Here is the intercooler I picked out. It fit perfectly where i wanted it. I plan on posting some pics soon. I hope this link Works!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2480529882&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6

99gmccrew

06-07-2004, 21:32

Can anyone give me some advice on what type of boost controller to get. I thought about getting a manual one I found, but I heard that I may throw some codes.

Turbine Doc

06-09-2004, 21:14

99gmc,
Until you get your reflash, and you know you are going to pony up for one eventually, or why did you go IC if not for more power. :D :D :D

To keep from throwing codes the JK boost control is the way I went. I have a TM now that I'm running the Heath reflash PCM which is programmed to ignore codes, I'll probably eventually pull vac pump as well.

I'm still playing with both to see which gives me best performance. You can build your own but the Kennedy control is plug and play installs in about 3 minutes or less.

CareyWeber

06-10-2004, 07:34

Originally posted by 99gmccrew:
Joey D, I got everything on ebay. The intercooler, 2.5" tubing, silicone connectors and t-bolt clamps. The installation went fairly smooth. It is pretty time consuming, but it is basically just a plumbing job on your truck. Here is the intercooler I picked out. It fit perfectly where i wanted it. I plan on posting some pics soon. I hope this link Works!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2480529882&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6 Where is it mounted at?

Spindrift

06-10-2004, 10:10

OK...what am I missing? The big Spearco, roughly the same dimensions, is selling for more than 2X what 99gmc paid for his. Is the difference in quality that significant?

Billman

06-12-2004, 16:30

I think the quality in the Spearco unit is High-Very High.

Remember you are paying for R&D also.

99gmccrew

06-15-2004, 18:28

Tbogmirep, you were right about the boost controller. I got one from Kennedy and noticed immediate improvement. So I turned the screw another 2 full turns and now it really screams. More power ugh! ugh! I want to thank you for posting your intercooler install pics. They helped me tremendously while figuring out how to install mine.

Spindrift, I dont think the quality of this intercooler is as high as the spearco intercoolers, but it is a very nice intercooler, especially for the price. I wanted the spearco but didn't want to spend $1200.00.

I have taken some pictures and I hope to get them posted by this weekend. For all of you thinking about getting an intercooler, just do it! You wont be sorry.