Which Locker?

[Chris611]

I would like to add a locker to my '97 K2500 before winter hits. I'm looking for advice on what locker will work best. Also how hard is the installation of the lockers in the 14 bolt FF'ers.

Thanks
Chris

[StephenA]

I'd like to know too..
Anyone?

[GMCfourX4]

I have a PowerTrax No-Slip in my truck. I had a Powertrax Lock-Right, but for the 14-bolt FF application, I can tell you that's not the way to go. Specifically for the 14-bolt FF, there are no side plates, the Lock-Right just uses the factory side-gears. I wore out one of these untis in about 1 year. They allowed me to upgrade for short money to the No-Slip under warranty, and so far I have been very happy with the No-Slip. One thing I will say is this - I do a lot of street driving around town, and having a locker (as opposed to a limited slip) is somewhat aggravating. In slow-speed turns, you HAVE to scrub one wheel, and it can be a bit tricky. In the snow, I love it, and it works very well in the rain. One other downside is that I go through tires almost yearly (maybe 35,000 miles?) If I were to do it again, I may decide to go with a good limited slip, but I'm not sure. Overall, I'm very happy with my locker. I haven't driven with any other types, but I know someone who blew up a Detroit in a 14-bolt FF in a Suburban with a built 454. The install isn't too bad if you know what you're doing, but DO NOT forget to count the rotations on the side-bearing adjusters when you loosen them. Once the carrier is out (mine was a factory open-diff), the install is fairly simple. If you do any towing, I would definitely reccommend a limited-slip over the locker, as the weight of the trailer doesn't allow for the tires to move as easily under slow-speed maneuvering, and can cause awful sounding slipping of the locker (which probably isn't good for things out back). Hope this helps!

-Chris

[Uncle Wally]

A locker should ratchet at slow speed manuvering. It sounds terrible, but that's the way it's supposed to work.

What I want to do is get an ARB locker for the front diff to go with a detroit or auburn out back. That way you can contol when it's in.

Although - it's quite spendy for a solid axle truck. And I have no idea if they make them for the GM IFS front diff.

Waldo

[britannic]

Originally posted by Uncle Wally:
A locker should ratchet at slow speed manuvering. It sounds terrible, but that's the way it's supposed to work.
Waldo People think my rear diff is busted when I turn at slow speeds and the 14 bolt FF detroit ratchets, but those that know the CUCV M1028 just smile knowingly :D ...

[GMCfourX4]

The locker does in fact rachet when turning, but only when there is no power applied to the axle. If you need to apply any throttle while in a tight turn (taking a turn from a stop, for instance) the power engages the locker, and you end up scuffing a tire. I've gotten a few looks from cops who aren't sure if I just lit 'em up in front of them :D

-Chris

[britannic]

Originally posted by GMCfourX4:
The locker does in fact rachet when turning, but only when there is no power applied to the axle. If you need to apply any throttle while in a tight turn (taking a turn from a stop, for instance) the power engages the locker, and you end up scuffing a tire. I've gotten a few looks from cops who aren't sure if I just lit 'em up in front of them :D

-Chris After removing 20,000 miles of tread life from my rear tires in just 6,000 miles of driving, I learned to apply only just enough power in corners to cut down on that problem. 'Course, when there's snow on the road or I'm out dirt trailing, I have a lot more fun :D !!

[cruzer]

The Powertrax/Lockrite are inexpenesive lockers.
They replace the spider gears in your diff carrier. You can get a lot of feedback thru the driveline coasting around turns.They work OK. A Detroit is about the best locker on the market and for the 14bolt FF is the cheapest of all Detroit's on the market. A Detroit replaces the
the whole diff carrier,and has a smoother operation than the Powertrax. It's more labor intensive to install. Both of these lockers are
are positive lockers, which means they are engaged all the time and will release 1 wheel for going around turns unless you are appling power around that turn. They will also allow your vehicle to fishtail if not carefull on wet or loose road surfaces because both wheels are engaged. It's not bad, but you need to be aware of this condition. The Eaton Govloc,which is what GM uses in their 14bolts, is considered a good highway locker. It engages when 1 tire spins more
than another. Approx 200 rpm difference. It's not a limited slip though. The locking device is only effective up to about 25mph. Going down the highway it basically runs like an open diff. If you are stuck and spin this locker over 25mph there's a good chance it will disengage & engage repeatedly, make alot of noise during this time and possibly explode. As for a limited slip, it engages when you make it, or when it wants to.
It is not very consistent in its operation.

The purchase of a traction aiding device is really going to depend on what you are going to use the vehicle for. I have a Govlok in my C2500
which works fine for my tow vehicle. If I were doing less towing and wanted an all around locker in my 4wd, no question it's Detroit. I would never consider a limited slip. I prefer positive lockers. Knowing they're engaged gives me predictability on how the vehicle will respond
in a certain situation.

My FJ40 has a Detroit in the rear and an ARB in the frt. I wouldn't have any other way. I used to have a Lockrite in the rear but it didn't like the new tire size and broke. They are also very noisy compared to the Detroit. Just my experiences.

[ 10-09-2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: cruzer ]

[GMCfourX4]

Cruzer;
The Detroit for the 14-bolt FF does not replace the carrier. It installs in a carrier from a factory open-diff. This may be the only Detroit application like this, but I looked into getting a Detroit when I was looking around for mine.
As for the cornering/slipping, I found that if I didn't keep slight throttle pressure going around corners, sometimes it would not re-engage as smoothly as I would like, especially if I wanted to power out of the corner. In any kind of slippery driving condition (rain, snow, etc.) I personally think a full locker is the only way to go. It may cause fishtailing in most turns when its slippery, but I know exactly what its going to do at any given time. When I had an open diff in the truck, sometimes throttle would cause the rear end to slip, other times it would just spin 1 wheel, and I think its safer to always know what its going to do with a given amount of throttle...

-Chris

[StephenA]

Anyone know what rear end is in my 92 K2500 8 lug? Is there a good limited slip or locker that won't chew up tires or fuel made for my rig?
Written on Axle:

2
CID 6
163
26011828

I think it's an INTEGRAL CARRIER?
If so, how does this compare to full or semi floating & what are the advantages of both?

[cruzer]

GMCfourx4, I didn't realize the detroit for a 14 bolt was like that. All the ones I've seen
replace the carrier. Mine has a relatively smooth operation. Not much noise at all, maybe a clunk
once in awhile when out on the trail w/the FJ..

I'm with you, predictability and I would add, strength are the keys. The lockrite just didn't work well for my application. The detroit drives and works better. I just thought those who were asking, should know what the characteristics are.

StephenA. If you take the center cap off(hubcap)
the rear tire. Behind it you will see a big protrusion sticking out from the center of the wheel (it's part of the axle) w/8bolts. It sticks
out approx 3". That would indicate it is a full floating axle. Another way to tell is, look at the pinion on the diff. Just behind it on the housing you will see 6 or 8 bolt going around it.
They are not in a perfect circle & I can't remember exactly how many bolts there are. If you see the bolts that would also indicate it is a
14bolt ff'r. FF has tapered wheel bearings on the end of the axle housing to hold wt. and the axles slide thru the center of the bearings. The axle does not hold wt it just turns the wheel. Semi floating, the axle has flat roller bearings in the housing of pressed onto the axle. The axle holds the wt. & turns the wheel. FF is stonger.

Try pirate4x4.com. You should be able to find pictures.

[StephenA]

Hi cruzer. Wonderful descriptions & website references. I verified that I have a 14bolt ff'r, which is nice to know. Stronger & easier to service than a pressed bearing semi floating. The 10.5" ring corporate diff is the same as the ones used in 1 tons. Basically its a Dana 70 with about 10 thousands inch difference in the ring, right?
So a Detroit 14 is probably what I'll want, if it's not too bad on tires. 'bout how much & where to git?
Thanks again

[ 10-08-2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: StephenA ]

[Dieselboy]

Detroit all the way! It's the most economical locker for the 14FF, and as long as there's torque going to your axle, it's locked. :D

[StephenA]

Found this:
http://nationaldrivetrain.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page23.html

DETROIT LOCKER GM 10.5 - 30 SPL ALL RATIOS 14 BOLT FULL FLOAT NON C-CLIP
$399.95
225S10
DETROIT LOCKER GM 10.5 - 30 SPL ALL RATIOS 14 BOLT FULL FLOAT NON C-CLIP NOTE: MUST USE OPEN CARRIER W/THIS UNIT

Is this about right?

[cruzer]

Some place I think I seen them for $330 or $350.
Try Randy's Ring $ Pinion.

[JohnC]

For the average Joe, I'm a big fan of the factory locker by Eaton. The reason is that all the ones listed above are normally locked and unlock (sometimes) when necessary. The Eaton, on the other hand is normally open and locks when necessary. This gives a lot better directional stability in adverse driving conditions. Also, the Eaton will not lock if your speed is above 20 mph so you are less likely to find yourself suddenly facing the wrong way on a curve in the ice.

I agree that it is not the best option for serious off roading but feel that it is the best option for getting around town and country.

[GMCfourX4]

Cruzer;
I would agree that the LockRite wasn't the greatest. Mine grenaded, though, and they allowed me to upgrade to their newer and stronger No-Slip for short money. The No-Slip is much better mannered, and performs much better. I can't compare it to a Detroit (never actually driven with one) but the No-Slip did get good reviews (in either 4-Wheeler or 4-Wheel and Off-Road). If I were to do it again, I would probably go with Detroit, but I'm happy with the No-Slip.

-Chris

[StephenA]

Anybody else have any experience with the Eaton, or any other lockers that are normally unlocked?

[cruzer]

That's what I have in my tow vehicle. Eaton Govlok. It's what GM uses from factory. It's OK, you just have to remember it unlocks around 20-25mph. If your stuck and need more wheel spin than that it will make a lot of noise, engaging and disengaging and trying to explode itself and they will eventually. I tow alot so I figure w/the added wt of trailer and camper, the rear tires are firmly on the ground. If a tire slips the other will find something hard to get traction.

[ 10-09-2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: cruzer ]

[G. Gearloose]

The circa 1977 eaton on the 14b FF on my blazer doesn't lock. I hear there is some sort of sacrificial component that shears if the axle is abused at high rpm then suddenly grabs traction. Does anyone know of it or how easy it is to remedy?

[C.K. Piquup]

Here`s something I don`t understand.Why do so many people install an ARB in the front,and a locker in the rear?I`ve done the opposite w/great results.Here`s why:1)ARB locks on demand,so in the rear you can run open on the street and locked in the ruff(best,right?) 2)the front axle stays free-wheel on the street(2wd/open) and is engaged(4wd)when extra traction is needed.3)If your rear is locked,you need 4wd less.4)When you do need 4wd,it`s better w/rear locked and better yet w/front end locked.So when I need 4wd,I got it all.When I need 2wd I got it all,and I can have a little more if I want.I run a Tru-Trac for better steering control.In my Bogger I run dual Detroit-Lockers(`71GMC w/2 1/2T axles&44"Boggers).

[Jim P]

My 2500hd has a "locking differential-rear axle".
That is what it says on the original window sticker. How do I know what type of locker it is?
The rear end has 8 bolt wheels but that is all I know.

I also am not sure if it works right. If your in the mud it will just sit and spin one wheel if the engine is just idling but if you rev it up a little, then the both wheels kick in. Is that the way it is supposed to work?

[Scooby]

Yes Jim, that is the way it will work. The factory limited slip is an Eaton (I think) and it engages when your side gears speed up when 1 wheel spins and the other doesnt. I am into mudding, and I have found none better than Detroit Locker. It is cheaper for for the 14 bolt full floater cause it uses the original carrier and only replaces the side gear chunk. I paid $500+ for the Detroit for my 14 bolt semi floater, and $500 for the Detroit for my Dana 60 in the front end. I had an Auburn limited slip up front for a while, but I broke the side gears out of it. ( I run 44 x 18.5 tires though). I think the Auburn limited slip might be a good choice for the 14 bolt FF if you arent running bigger than about 35" tires. Get the better
Auburn though, I think it is the 'performance line' or something like that. Auburn sent me another LS, but I didnt put it in. ( I also didnt tell them my tire size !!) I sold it on Ebay for 200.00 . I then put in the Detroit up front.
As others have noted, the detroit will work real well if you kind of 'coast' through turns. You really dont know it is in my truck, except for the extra ' backlash ' which is heard when going from coast to drive, and vice versa.
IMHO, I think a LOCKER may be a little harsh for a daily driver. I would go for a limited slip, like the Auburn Gear unit.

[cruzer]

C.K. My experiences w/lockers and ARB's are w/trail vehicles. I have a FJ40 w/Detroit in rear and ARB in frt. I have seen several people w/similar vehicles that use the ARB in the rear. They seem to have alot of problems w/them. Something either mechanically goes wrong or the develop an air leak. It seems like when they are constantly engaged and disengaged they lose their reliablity, IMO. I've never had a problem w/one in the frt, but its use is limited to the obstacle in frt of me.

For what I use my vehicle for I don't care about any driving charactheristics that a locker in the rear might create. I am looking for the function of a positive locker, and Detriot is the top of the line. 75% of the time I can use 2wd low. If I need 4wd I just pull a shifter. If I'm doing something extreme I can lock the frt. I used to have a lockrite in the frt but I didn't like the stress that was being applied to the tie rods,steering box and pump and the axle joints or Birfields.

If I had a 60 I'd probably install a Detroit.
My 2cts. It works for me.

[C.K. Piquup]

I didn`t think we were talking about trail vehicles.ARBs are great,I don`t know why a rear unit would be any more prone to failure than the front.I like the cable activation method of the OX units.They`re only available for Danas,I believe.The same goes for the Detroit E-lockers,with limited applications available,too.Both of these are the way to go for me,simpler/more reliable.

[cruzer]

I think the problem w/the ARB in the rear is that it is under constant use. I'm just letting you know my experiences. We do alot of trail riding and punish our rigs severely, so we see what works and what doesn't. The OX lockers have had problems too. It seems the cable clamp can strip on the shifting fork. As it was stated to me, if you engaged it and the cable stripped you would have to remove the cover to disengage it & repair. I doubt all of them do it but there is a possibilty of this problem arising. Also the shifting fork is in the new cover that they supply. The cover protrudes out futher than a stk cover and can be hit by rocks and stuff.

A friend of mine just installed an electric locker. It's a limited slip that can then be locked. He seems to like it, but he has only gone on a couple of trail rides w/it. He has not had any problems so far. It looks like a well built unit but time will tell. The shifting forks are in a stk but altered cover, w/a steel rock guard protecting the solenoid.

ARB's are all internally operated. You have to drill holes for airlines and breathers on top of the pumpkin. I have seen problems w/the ARB.
Compressors going bad,bad relays, broken airlines, the 2 seals in the locker fail and broken parts. Most failures were in the rear locker.I have not had any problems w/mine. Its been installed in the frt for approx 5yrs.

[House Builder]

My experiance with the factory govlock is not great. On two different K-2500 Suburbans the orginal diff (gov-lock unit) failed at a little over 100,000 miles. These were factory 14 bolt semi-floater 9 1/2" units. I replaced one with another new govlock and got about 50,000 more miles when it failed again. Mostly street miles with significant trailer pulling. (8-10,000lbs)
The other one I replaced with a Detroit and have run another 150,000+ miles without failure.
(Of course I had to replace the entire diferential assembly to a full floater from a sem-floater when I did that in 1993 as Detroit did not make a locker for the 14 bolt semi-floater at that time.)This truck is also runing a Banks sidwinder turbo on a 6.5 and has pulled about a 10,000lb trailer for about 60,000 of that 150,000miles.
I replaced the second failure of the factory govlock in the other suburban with a Power Trax "soft locker" for the 2 pinion semi-floater 14 bolt 9 1/2" and went through three units under warrantee in less than 10,000 miles. I finaly changed the entire axle assembly to a 10 1/2" full floater with a Power Trax "soft locker" and it has held up for about another 50,000 miles to this point with no problem.
The company that put in the Power trax units and warranteed the failures for me claimed that the govlocks in the semi floaters did not hold up nearly as well as the govlocks in the full floating design.
I also have a C-20 suburban closing in on 200,000 miles with a semi-floater diff with a factory govlock and no problems to date. However this truck is driven almost entirely on the street with small standard tires- 235/85/16. and has towed only a little with light loads.
The trucks that destroyed the gove locks were runing wide 33 or 35 inch tall tires and periodically were of road in sand or just tough dirt roads.
There are some significant differences to driving with the full lockers that are magnified by pulling trailers. ALso the rear tires need to be exactly the same tire and the same amount of tread and hopefully the smae tire air pressure. Otherwise you will find the taller tire doing all the work and "pushing you in corners". Going through winding roads with a lot of corners pulling a heavy trailer off and on the throttle will give yoiu a real work out with the steering whell to keep the vehicle in the center of the lanes. This is becuase depending on whether you and going right of left, or on the throttle or using engine braking around corners, the force of the power will push you one direction or another becuase of the freewheeling effect of the diff on the corners.
In spite of the challanges of the full lockers , and the additional rear tire wear unless you are VERY carefull with the throttle taking off around corners, they have such good traction and dependability (in full floaters)that I would not have a four wheel drive without them.