New member - looking before I leap.

[JMitchell]

Hey guys, great forum - more info than I can digest! I have a 99 C2500 5.7 Vortec/4L80E crew cab and it's been nothing but reliable. It just turned 92,000 miles and has yet to throw a code.

BUT, my family has grown since I bought it and I've been looking for a C2500 Suburban. The only one I've found within 100 miles is a 98 C2500 with the 6.5. It has brake problems they're fixing, and I can't hear the turbo whine when I drive it. (I didn't think much of it until I read d.h.'s post on "Low Power", I'm already money ahead on the membership. smile.gif ) Supposedly they've put a new pump on it. It has 103,000 miles, is a straight and very clean LT. Looks well cared for.

I've spent a few days reading up on it and decided to pop for a membership here to make a better informed decision.

So far I've read a lot about the PMD issues and relocation and oil cooler lines.

I came into this cold, not knowing a thing about them. I'm trying to find out how the 6.5 stacks up against the 5.7 in terms of reliability and longevity. I like the truck, I'm trying to sell myself on the diesel. From what I've read this evening, the biggest concern is the lack of turbo whine. The plastic cover is still on top of the engine, so I'm pretty sure the PMD hasn't been moved. Any help evaluating the truck will be greatly appreciated.

Oh yeah, I pull a 19' center console boat 200 miles (one way) to the coast, that's as hard as I ever tow.

Thanks!
John

[ 11-17-2004, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: JMitchell ]

[Arlie]

No cut and dried answers will be found. Here's my 2 cents.

Most of these engines will make their owners happy going 2-300 K. More fail early than should due to the 6.2/6.5 having some fundamental flaws, the main ones being heads that crack and blocks that crack. You know about the pump problems from 94 up. The pumps are more of a nuisance. Engine failures are much more serious. Mine failed due to the oil cooler line problem. You could prevent that one.

Consider carefully what an engine failure means and ask if you're prepared to live with paying 10G if it happens. If you keep it until it needs a rebuild, I doubt your fuel savings will offset the rebuild cost (that's just a guess).

The main advantage to the diesel is towing performance. If your 5.7 has served you well, I'd lean toward staying with gas. Of course lots of folks just like their diesels, some for the very reasons that others dislike them. If I knew what I know now I'd steer clear of these flawed engines.

Arlie

[99gmccrew]

Welcome to The Diesel Page! You'll find that you made a smart decision joining, especially if you go with the 6.5l. I bought my truck not knowing much about the 6.5l legacy. They have some inherent flaws that can be remedied to make them pretty darn good performers. The first thing you need ,if doing any towing at all, is a set of gauges. Pyrometer, boost, and trans temp is what I was advised to install by the members. There are many other mods you can do afterwards that you will be able to monitor improvements by watching your gauges and the performance differences you will experience. Opening up the intake and exhaust will give the truck some added pep and is a good place to start after the gauges are in place. I really love my 99' GMC and I owe a lot to the diesel page for the improvements I have made. I've got a great truck and I didn't have to spend 40k on it. Good luck with what you decide to do.

[Dvldog 8793]

Howdy
I have my truck and van and about three other gassers. My 1989 welding rig has 255,000miles on it, never been touched and runs strong! that's a 350gas. My 1999 3500 crew cab has a 6.5 with 4000miles on it cause the block broke, before that I put a new turbo on and a new injection pump. the whole truck has 142,000 on it, I wouldn't trade it for the world and will never buy another gasser. No accounting for logic, right?!? :D I do some towing and have done some modifications to the diesel. What I have is a truck that pulls like a Stock 454 and gets twice the mileage. AND sounds WAY cooler. tongue.gif
Reliabilty? In my town there are 8-9 other 6.5s, to my knowledge mine is the only one that has had any real problems. If you read the board you will hear some nightmares, that's because people don't normally join to say "hey, no problems. just thought I'd give you some money!" The block thing is a problem but at least GM will stand behind it somewhat. Your injector pump is still under warrenty. For the amount of pulling you do, you probably don't need to do anything to the truck except maybe open up the exhaust and the intake. This would also help your economy. Maintaining a diesel can be more expensive than a gasser, the oil and filters cost more and need to be changed more often. Injectors might need to be changed soon. Find out what kind of gear ratio the sub has and then you can get a better idea of what kida mileage you'll get. Also a rig that turns 1700rpm at highway speeds is going to allot longer than one that runs 2200 at the same speed. RPM is the key to diesel economy. Hope this helps you make a GOOD choice for yourself!
L8r
Conley Janssen
USMC 87-93

[catmandoo]

you either love em or hate em,i personnally love diesels,heck i even mow my grass with diesels.just this summer i bought a 94 2500 sub and currently have about 10,000 since i got it and so far she's been pretty good to me,i have put inj's,fuel pump and a t-chain in it for preventative maintenance,but other then that,i'm real happy been running right at 20 mpg.definatly get the gauges,well worth it ,my next project with it is the exhaust upgrade and then maybe a chip.

[markrinker]

Can the dealer sell you an extended drivetrain warranty that would cover catastrophic engine failures?

Not to put the fear into you, but '98 blocks have something called 'oil spray' passages to better cool the pistons. Good news is the extra oil flow, but the bad news is that the blocks were prone to cracking in those locations, and the blocks were subsequently changed.

I purchased a 1998 'oil spray' motor (cheap) to repower my 1994 that broke a crankshaft due to block webs cracking. It was an expensive ordeal, and I have no recourse if this one cracks tomorrow. Drivetrain warranties are becoming the only way to go, IMHO.

I think it is fair to say that you will likely experience diesel related maintenance on this purchase. If you have the funds, building a strong pulling 6.5 is alot of fun. If you don't wrench, or don't like spending money under the hood, go gas. If you like gobs of torque and the sound of a diesel, GO FOR IT!!!

[rjschoolcraft]

I love my Diesel Suburban. With that said, I have had some problems, but have over come them and now, with modifications, have a very strong towing machine.

I bought my 1995 K2500 in 2000 with 58,000 miles on the odometer. On the first trip out west towing my trailer, the engine blew...burned #8 piston. It was replaced under warranty in Bismarck, ND at 65,000 miles. Later, at about 75,000 miles the injection pump was replaced under warranty. Since then, I've had various overheating problems that are common with the earlier 6.5's. I work mine hard, so I've invested in performance improvements and cooling system upgrades that have, I think, solved all of those issues. It runs better now than it did when it was brand new. The truck now has 220,000 miles showing on the odometer!

As was stated earlier, you'll either love it or hate it.

[RB]

The good news is you're looking at a '98 which already has the high cap cooling (dual thermostats)from the factory, larger engine oil cooler with larger lines and oil cooled pistons. Also, a stock 6.5 won't have alot of turbo whine. At least mine didn't until I opened up the intake and exhaust. You have to really listen for it.
Try and get the vin # and see if you can talk a GM dealer into pulling a warranty history for you. That should give you some idea about what kind of truck it's been. Track down the prior owner and get some info from him about the truck.
I've owned 3 6.5s with no regrets. With the help of this page you'll learn how to deal with their quirks.
I'll put my lightly modded 6.5 up against a 5.7 any day and I'll outpull it, get way better mileage and get waaay more engine life. I'm currently at 177k and going strong.
Good Luck.

[Dihrdbowti]

I went into the purchase of my 6.5 blind. I just knew it would be better mpg. The previous owner didn't maintain it very well so I had to make my monthly payments to the repair gods for the first 7 months of ownership. Part of that though was upgrading to the dual thermostats and HO water pump and updating the oil cooler lines. Since the reapir gods have been satisfied for the past several months I have been able to add gauges (pyrometer boost tranny temp) and added Kennedy's 3.5 inch exhaust. Since the exhaust turbo spools faster and can really hear the turbo whine. Also since exhast in town fuel economy has dropped a bit as my foot tends to be a bit heavier :D . On a trip to Southern Cal towing about 6500lbs I was averaging 16mpg which is about the best my 97 4 dr 4wd tahoe did unloaded on that same trip. I get 20-21 unloaded hwy and about 16-18 city (when I'm not to heavy on the go pedal). This is my first diesel and will not be my last. Good luck with your decision.

[JMitchell]

Thank you very much for the response. rb, you stated that they don't make much turbo whine stock, and I am a little hard of hearing. I do need to verify that the turbo is working. How subtle is the turbo whistle? My wife has perfect hearing and hasn't ridden in it yet, should she be able to hear it? It's in a hilly area so it won't be a problem to load the engine up a lug a hill. But the engine is noisy in the cab, not muted at all, even with all the noise dampening material on the firewall and in the engine compartment.

I had read that '98's were crack-prone, and I'd read about them having oil-sprayed pistons. Thanks for making the connection for me. Should I avoid this truck altogether for this reason? I guess I'm asking, is it that common? Knowing what you know now, would you avoid a 98?

If I'm going to run the risk of a cracked block (I know I'm crazy now, all doubt removed), I need to know how much you're talking about. How much does a rebuild typically run, how much does a turbo cost, etc. It will be driven daily and if it's down, I'm hitching with my wife, so I need an idea of worst case scenario, money-wise.

I've already said I've never owned one, but there is the "cool" factor, so I'd be willing to spend a little time and money on it, but that's all relative, isn't it? ;) Seriously, my wife and wallet wouldn't stand for too much. Some, but not much.

Thanks again for your time and input.

John

[Dvldog 8793]

Howdy
The turbo whine is going to be hard to hear in side your truck. Take it for test ride and when it's good and warmed up put-the-hammer-down. check your mirros, if no turbe you shouldn't be able to mush except for smoke. You can also pull the air inlet hose off and take a look at the impellor. might a little oily, shuold not be dirty, should spin freely and have NO side play. Also blades should be free of and chips/cracks ect..
My new AM General long block cost me $6200 from my cousin that works at the parts desk. GM covered 1/3 of the motor and my truck was 40,000 miles out of warrenty. A remaned engine normaly runs about $3-4000 depending on what you get.
People who live in fear never really live! :D
Have fun!

[RB]

Originally posted by JMitchell:
Thank you very much for the response. rb, you stated that they don't make much turbo whine stock, and I am a little hard of hearing. I do need to verify that the turbo is working. How subtle is the turbo whistle? My wife has perfect hearing and hasn't ridden in it yet, should she be able to hear it? It's in a hilly area so it won't be a problem to load the engine up a lug a hill. But the engine is noisy in the cab, not muted at all, even with all the noise dampening material on the firewall and in the engine compartment.

I had read that '98's were crack-prone, and I'd read about them having oil-sprayed pistons. Thanks for making the connection for me. Should I avoid this truck altogether for this reason? I guess I'm asking, is it that common? Knowing what you know now, would you avoid a 98?

If I'm going to run the risk of a cracked block (I know I'm crazy now, all doubt removed), I need to know how much you're talking about. How much does a rebuild typically run, how much does a turbo cost, etc. It will be driven daily and if it's down, I'm hitching with my wife, so I need an idea of worst case scenario, money-wise.

I've already said I've never owned one, but there is the "cool" factor, so I'd be willing to spend a little time and money on it, but that's all relative, isn't it? ;) Seriously, my wife and wallet wouldn't stand for too much. Some, but not much.

Thanks again for your time and input.

John I think that if the turbo's not working it would be obvious when you drive it as the tuck would be fairly sluggish. From a stop, give the truck about 3/4 throttle. You should feel the truck begin to pull harder a little before 2000 rpm, that's the tubo "spooling" up.
If the turbo's not working it could be something as simple as a vac line or wastegate.
As far as an engine, I've seen rebuilts anywhere from $2500 - $7000. How much it costs you will depend the quality of the motor and your wrenching abilities. What usally happens is when someone replaces a motor it's a good excuse to "upgrade" to a performance motor. :D That can get real expensive. :eek:
Also, that truck has a 11yr and 120K warranty on the injection pump, so you have a little security there. I agree with the suggestion about buying an extended warranty but try to buy a good one that is sponsored by one of the mfgrs like GMPP. These are geared more to customer satisfaction than profit. "Your challenge" is to find a competent shop that has a tech that has some understanding of these engines. At least with the help of this page and it's members you won't be at the mercy of some service writers line of BS.
Where are you located? Maybe you're close enough to someone that can help you look over the truck.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

A short test drive will tell you if the turbo's working. Put the boot to it: Any black smoke, & you've got reduced or no boost. When my Wastegate Actuator broke (causing no boost), you couldn't see anything behind me when I got on it.

Main 6.5L Problems & Solutions

FSD/PMD

Solution(s): No ultimate resolution on this one yet. There are MANY things that have been tried by DP folks. From my reading here, it looks like remote-mounting behind the drivers-side headlight (after purchasing an extension harness [JK & others]) or Heath

[rjschoolcraft]

The turbo was inaudible on mine until I installed a K&N filter.

[markrinker]

Do you think we have confused/scared/excited him enough yet, guys?

Kind of like walking into a bar to ask patrons the pros and cons of taking the first sip of alcohol...

"...We might be the wrong people to ask, kid."

LOL!!!

[Spindrift]

JM,

As I understand it, you really have said anything that suggests you really NEED a diesel. If you want one for the "cool factor", simply be aware of the fact that your proposed purchase will require more TLC than what is customary for your current truck. And the TLC will come with a price tag, especially if you're local shop will be doing the work.

Oh yeah, and COOL it will be. :D

[catmandoo]

moondoggie,you forgot the oil pressure switch,which can be more of an anoyyance then anything,pretty simple fix there too.

[RB]

Originally posted by catmandoo:
moondoggie,you forgot the oil pressure switch,which can be more of an anoyyance then anything,pretty simple fix there too. :confused: :confused:



Originally posted by moondoggie:


Wastegate Actuator, Wastegate Actuator Solenoid, Lift Pump, Oil Pressure Switch, etc.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/images/vc003975.jpg

:D :D

[ 11-18-2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: rb ]

[catmandoo]

oh my bad.

[Arlie]

Just a small clarification. The prices you're seeing for a replacement engine are just the cost of the engine. I mentioned 10G. This is roughly what a new engine installed will run. Of course you can lower that if you choose a rebuilt and/or doing the R&R yourself which sacrifices warranty.

It's really too bad there's nothing like a Suburban out there with a Cummins. I think they'd sell like hotcakes. I better quit with these comments before I make someone mad. smile.gif

Arlie

[JMitchell]

[quote]
Cracking Blocks

Solutions(s): Same as heads, with the added complication of the 1st generation of oil spray blocks having too large of oil spray holes, causing potential cracks. I think more knowledgeable folks here, or a search, might be able to tell you what block S/N

[rjschoolcraft]

10K for an replacement engine is ridiculously high.

[RB]

Originally posted by ronniejoe:
10K for an replacement engine is ridiculously high. I agree!
I just picked one vendor (http://www.kennedydiesel.com/) who has the AM General longblock for $4450 plus freight. This also includes a 12mo/unlimited mile warranty. Even if I paid a shop to r&r the engine I would pay less than a $1000 for labor and misc parts.

[JMitchell]

I like the truck a lot and would like to trade, but not if it includes counting on replacing the engine, no matter the cost.

I'm hoping that someone knows how to break it down by S/N so I can check the truck and know it's a good trade or avoid it.

The diesel bug has bit, but not so much so that I'd buy a truck with a bad engine.

Thank's for all your help so far. If someone can help me out with the serial number issue, I'd really appreciate it. Did I mention I want the truck? :D smile.gif

[RB]

Everything you want to know about cracked blocks is HERE. (http://www.amghummer.com/Diesel/No8Cyl/CrackedBlock.htm)

[JMitchell]

Thanks, rb. I spent the morning searching old posts and found a lot of posts on this subject. Oil sprayed pistons, large hole/small hole spray, 506 blocks, the upgrade in 99, etc. Your link told the rest of the story. Sad to find out the 97-up are all crack prone to some degree, at least until AMG took over production.

So I called the local dealer and asked a lady in the service department if she'd run the VIN and check the service history of the truck. She was glad to, and I was hoping to see an engine replacement in 2000 or later. No such luck. It has been through three pumps, though. And many other things. She made a comment on how much time it had spent in the shop.

I also found many posts and threads about poor brakes and remedies, so I wasn't suprised when the dealer called me and told me the brakes had been pronounced "good" by the mechanic. He said that's just the way Hydra-boost brakes work. Maybe so, but they felt like junk to me and I wouldn't feel safe towing with them like that.

So it comes down to chancing that the block won't crack on me. I realize most don't, and if they weren't so expensive to replace, I'd be willing. As it is, I'm going to have let them keep it.

Thanks for all your help!

John

[jspringator]

What if your 4th VIN # is "G"?

[JMitchell]

Originally posted by James Springate:
What if your 4th VIN # is "G"? Uh, I don't know. You've got my curiousity up, the 4th VIN # is indeed a "G". That stand for GOOD!?

[Dihrdbowti]

According to my 96 service manual the 4th digit is the GVWR/Brake System
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Code GVWR Range Brake sys
B 3001-4000 Hyd
C 4001-5000 Hyd
D 5001-6000 Hyd
E 6001-7000 Hyd &lt;--- Me
F 7001-8000 Hyd
G 8001-9000 Hyd
H 9001-10,000 Hyd
J 10,001-14,000 Hyd
K 14,001-16,000 Hyd</pre>[/QUOTE]

[ 11-19-2004, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Dihrdbowti ]

[Dihrdbowti]

You know I have been sitting here thinking about it and I think that no matter what vehicle you go with you will have issues. Whether it's gas or diesel, 4wd or 2wd, automatic or manual, GM Ford Dodge etc. You are going to hear more of the bad on a page like this as this is a friends helping friends page. Sure every now and then you get "Hey trucks running great no problems." but then again I think that we on this page are a minority when it comes to the 6.5L TD GM powered vehicle community. Most people that have gravitated to this page are ones that have had problems or are learning about their diesels. I for one consider myself a newbie when it comes to diesels as my first purchase was Jan 04. It was a used 96 Yukon and yes I have had my share of problems but I have to say that all but one of my problems were because the previous owner didn't take care of the vehicle. The one that was specific was the Injection Pump. At around 79,000 miles earlier this year the second IP pump was replaced under warranty on my Yukon. The first was replaced at 25,000 miles within 1.5 of purchase date so it was still the outdated rev.
Anyway getting back to my point if you go looking for the problems you will find them on just about any vehicles.
Just my .02+.02+.02 cents worth. Good luck with whatever decision you make.

[Arlie]

Quote:
"10K for an replacement engine is ridiculously high. "


I agree it's ridiculously high but not hard to do.

New GM longblock $6599
GM shop labor $2000
Shipping $300
Subtotal $8899 :(
Turbo, Pump, Misc ??? :eek:

Not saying I'd do it that way but you can bet it happens!
Someone's got to offset all the diesel addicts a little. ;) I'm entitled as I'm one of those who got burned.
Like I said, I'm sure most of these engines make their owners happy but even a cheap fix can easily run more than what the rig's worth.
Arlie

PS: This is from the above site referring to the cracking blocks:

" As of June 2004 a very good price at a dealer is $13K with $10.5K for an engine, $2.2K labor, and $0.3K for other parts, coolant, etc."

[ 11-19-2004, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Arlie ]

[JMitchell]

Originally posted by Dihrdbowti:
You know I have been sitting here thinking about it and I think that no matter what vehicle you go with you will have issues. Whether it's gas or diesel, 4wd or 2wd, automatic or manual, GM Ford Dodge etc. You are going to hear more of the bad on a page like this as this is a friends helping friends page. Sure every now and then you get "Hey trucks running great no problems." but then again I think that we on this page are a minority when it comes to the 6.5L TD GM powered vehicle community. Most people that have gravitated to this page are ones that have had problems or are learning about their diesels. I for one consider myself a newbie when it comes to diesels as my first purchase was Jan 04. It was a used 96 Yukon and yes I have had my share of problems but I have to say that all but one of my problems were because the previous owner didn't take care of the vehicle. The one that was specific was the Injection Pump. At around 79,000 miles earlier this year the second IP pump was replaced under warranty on my Yukon. The first was replaced at 25,000 miles within 1.5 of purchase date so it was still the outdated rev.
Anyway getting back to my point if you go looking for the problems you will find them on just about any vehicles.
Just my .02+.02+.02 cents worth. Good luck with whatever decision you make. Yeah, I knew that coming into the forum. I've been on staff at www.chevytalk.com (http://www.chevytalk.com) for a few years now. If you head over there and browse the 88-98 truck forum you'd come away wondering how these trucks even run. I signed up to find out what's common, and what's worst-case scenario. I got my money's worth. A cracked block is a pretty bad worst-case, especially when a Jasper reman is $7500.

I already know the issues with mine. The intake gaskets are going to let go at some point, it's a Vortec thing. On small-blocks, anyway. And the fuel pump is going to quit someday. And it's in the tank and a pain to get to.

But I've had my truck since it had 44,000 miles on it. I know I've changed the oil every 3,000 miles and greased the chassis. And I've dropped the pan on the 4L80E every year and replaced the filter/gasket/fluid. I've babied the truck, it almost never sees over 2,500 rpm just because there's no point in it. The truck is not fast and driving like a throttle jockey will just burn gas twice as fast. I get 12 mpg in town and 16 on the highway unloaded, towing the boat I get 11 to 12. It now has 92,000 miles on it and I've only replaced a belt and the alternator. That's a good history with the truck and I trust it to go where ever I want. Here's a link from our Member's Rides section:
http://www.chevytalk.org/~members/trucks/jwm.html

I don't think that the 6.5's are crap. I'd really like to trade for that Sub, but it's too much to risk. I can order a new 5.7 Vortec from ScogginDickey for $2200, if I could say the same for the 6.5 I'd give it a try. Truth be told, I was already looking at exhaust kits!

If anyone close to Montgomery, AL is looking for a diesel Suburban, the body/interior are like new and they want $9850. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to post here, but email me and I'll give you their number.

http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL534/828983/3031653/73031912.jpg

Yeah, the wheels are goofy, but the dealer was willing to let me swap my factory steelies and new BFG's onto the Sub if we'd traded.

I appreciate all the help. You guys make me wish we charged at the door at Chevytalk.

John

[Barry Nave]

Nice Sub ;)
With TLC I'll bet you could get another 100K with just (down the road) R&R the FSD,inj.pump,Injector.
Add pro. parts based on your needs or wants,
Block problem very far and few.
I added a bypass filter to mine after 60K miles and went from using 1Qt. of oil between changes, @ 4K miles to using none at all between changes.
May need to replace oil lines at some point but this truck sounds like a sweet heart. ;)
May be I have no fear
MY TRUCK
@136K
Inection pump warranty
One FSD,then I got the cooler kit
R&R injector to high flows
GM long block @ 45K, No crack issue,oil usage warranty
Will my Eng. last, you bet.
Sure I've spent more on the mods then the truck may be worth by the book, though this truck will last me.
Normal wear, Tires,Alt,did have to rebuild trany but this truck works very hard in my construction.
Being thats it's a 95 C3500 ext.cab weighing in at 8200# tool boxes and more and having to tow trailers,skidloaders and such I have a hard time making others believe it's a 95.

[catmandoo]

nice sub wish i lived closer.but then i need another one like a hole in the head.but as for me i love my diesels,these gm 6.2 and 6.5 may have their problems but i would rather take my lumps with a gm then drive a f*rd or d*dge,if i ever defect it will be to vw.