Why I bought a Cummins instead of a Duramax

[6 2 Carl]

I recently bought a new 2004.5 dodge 3500 SWB 4X4 truck. I know this might ruffle a few feathers here, but I am going to discuss a few of the reasons why I bought a Dodge over a GM.

1. I could not find a 6-speed. When I was looking for trucks, there were only 4 trucks in Canada!

2. Can

[56Nomad]

Hi Carl,

You wrote in part: "My Dodge isn

[Roadmaster39]

Hi Carl,

I've been lurking here and over at the TDR for over a year weighing the pros and cons of both brands. A few weeks ago I went to a Dodge dealer to test drive a truck, but fully intending to buy one. I did the test drive and just to be certain went a test drove a Chevy. I bought the Chevy.

The things that swayed me were the larger rear seat of the Chevy (I have two children in car seats), the 5 speed auto, and the (subjective of course) nicer interior of the Chevy.

I think any of the big three brand trucks are terrific, it's just a matter of what suits your needs the best.

On another note, I don't spend that much time browsing the TDR anymore (and I won't be renewing) because of the extreme vitriol of some of the members there. "If it ain't a Dodge it's a piece of ****" attitude. I don't find this attitude to be prevalent here or at the Ford sight. I think there are things we can learn at all the sights, but the constant barrage of insults gets old.

Good luck with your truck.

Best regards,

Erik

[OC_DMAX]

6.2 Carl and Roadmaster39,

Just goes to show you that each manufacture has their strengths and weakness's. I really love my truck the way I have it set-up right now. However, in a few years when it comes time to replace it, I would not hesitate for one minute to get a Dodge if it met my requirements/desires better.

6.2Carl - given the record GM has with the clutch/flywheel assembly on the 6 speed DMAX, I think your better off with the Dodge. That reason alone would have been at the top of my list to avoid the DMAX / 6 Speed at all cost.


Later,
Alan

[motovet]

In regards to the Dodge having more power....the stock Ford and Chevy were both faster up the hill than the stock Dodge at the Pull-off this year. Don't know what the dyno numbers are, but the real world results showed the new Dodge to be the slowest, at least on that day. Not bashing or anything as I like all the new trucks for one reason or another, but power does not seem to be a strong point for the big D. The Duramax of course was the fastest stock and modded.

[4diesels]

Well, I have both. I had an '01 D-max before the '03, so really I have had two of each, and a 7.3PSD :D

The Chev is the best car of the buch. It has the nicest interior and most comfortable seats. Most of the rest of the truck I could do without, and this will be my last Chev. The D-max gets terrible milage next to the Dodge. Almost certainly I can expect injectors to fail, the allison burned its fluid black and I agree that the front end styling starting in '03 is butt ugly. The other point missed was that the LLY is rated at 590 lb/ft but not in first or fifth, what kind of sick joke is that?

My next personal truck will be a Dodge. It is the best driving truck in stock form. I had to replace the pathetic tires and shocks before I could even think about enjoying my Chev. The Dodge comes ready.

As for the hill climb, sure the Ford and Chev are faster, but you have to rev the wee out of them to get there. In normal driving, the Dodge easily out torques the others. Much less drama, much less noise, much less wasted fuel. Besides the Cummins is the ONLY one of the three not experiencing terminal failures on a consistant basis.

[motovet]

The Dodge got the wee reved out of it but....still slower than the rest. Good luck with the Dodge and enjoy normal driving. Just be prepared to be passed on a normal basis. :D

[4diesels]

Right.....Fast and broken constantly....great combination.

[matt-max]

hmmmm...not sure where you get the idea that duramaxes are constantly or consistently breaking down.....what makes you say that???

i have over 100k combined mileage with no problems on two trucks, early 01 and 03 (with a great looking gmc front end, thank you very much).


enjoy your dodge. it is a great looking truck too, and i am sure it performs great too.

matt

[4diesels]

Seems to me that there are tons of Duramaxes with injector problems. My '01 was traded off with 97k miles, it had several issues over the years. My '03 has had a bad brake servo (leaking), came from the factory with a leaking lower rad hose and with 25k on it had burned its tranny fluid black as coal with very little light towing. I just do not have a lot of faith in them. It is like a 6.5 redo except with power this time.

Glad to hear you found a GMC that worked. When I was buying we couldn' t find a single CC LB in five states. I settled for the Chev.

[ueckebes]

39 i would have to agree with you about negative remarks on dodge web sites. the if it aint dodge its junk attitude,many have,makes me want to vomit.between my father and i there have been 3 dodges,3 fords and 8 gm trucks owned by us in the last 25 years,all diesel powered. the dodges have with out a doubt been the the worst of the lot,truck wise and in one case cummins engine wise,wait a minute we did own a 5.7 that turned junky. i look to web sites among other things to help make decisions on new truck purchases like other people do also,seeing reports that are out of focus by these bashers,really makes me want to rethink about giving a dodge another try,on my next new vehicle purchase.this is not to say bashing is not happening on other sites to ,its just seems to be a lot more noticeable on dodge sites.

[motovet]

So 4....watcha doin with all those trucks anyway?

[4diesels]

The Silverado is our personal truck, sometimes pulls a horse trailer, or the open car trailer to the drags, you know, its our truck smile.gif The biggest reason I still have it is the sheer comfort as compared to the Dodge. I will readily admit that there is no comparison. The seats are WAAAAY better and I take some loooong drives in that truck. The stereo makes the others look bad and the ride is appreciably better.

The other three are work trucks and I do use them personally on weekends sometimes. The Ford is the plow truck, it has held up amazingly well, up to 230k miles now, all work, only an auto tranny replaced at 200k. Those two Dodges I REALLY like. Both are autos and unlike the allison, the like being in top gear pulling at low rpm. Before the change to Bilstiens on the Chev, the Dodges were much more stable on rough roads at speed. They also return far better fuel milage than the 7.3 or D-maxes I have owned. The new ones are very soild with hydroformed frames all the way back. I haven't had a single issue with either one in hard use. The dually has over 60k and the quad about 40k now. If they would give us a full four door and spruce up the interior I would jump in a second. I have gone as far as to consider aftermarket seats for a new Dodge but my tall kids and the short 4-door are still holding me back.

As for the TDR site, I actually found it to be the best of the 3/4. Sure those guys are loyal to their brand, but I have seen stupid brand loyalty here and at the Ford site as well. Until the '03s came out, the truck the cummins was bolted to was a joke. Now they have that 90% fixed and I feel have some ground to stand on. IMO GM is still trying to get their diesel truck right, the D-max is no cummins, and the allison is overrated. Ford would get my dollars but I still don't trust that 6.0L diesel. Those things just plain sound bad in addition to the other problems. The '05 Ford SD gets coil springs in front with the solid axle (as it should be) and a 300hp 5.4L gas engine. That very well may be my next truck. I bet it gets better milage than my D-maxes. :eek:

[MIKE WIENER]

Just remeber one thing. You can have ten guys drive the same truck and you well get ten deferint oppinions of that truck. all trucks are a compromise.

That same truck would survice those ten guys diferintly. one may make it around the world ten times. one may not maket around the corner. evry one drives diferintl. grandma to fredy lead foot. :rolleyes:

[rickdlance]

Give me a cummins motor, an allison 6 speed transmission ( with a suncoast upgrade ), and a 2001 or 2002 3500 chevy body all together and then we will have a truck!

Buy the way rumor has it the cummins will be in the Ford within 2 model years. Dodge will use the mercedes benz motor and an allison trans, and gm will stay the same with minor upgrades. Just something a little birdie told me.

[Turbo Al]

I really do hate it when "people" tell me my D-max is constantly breaking down and in the shop all the time, my injectors are toast, head gaskets leak and the list goes on and on. This truck has been more trouble free than the 1993 6.5 TD and it had a lot fewer problems than the 1991 Jimmy and it had a lot less problems than the 1989 Ford.
There seems to be a theme here.
I am glad "some people" are so grossly misinformed because then they will never know the joy of riding in a D-Max. :D

Good luck with the Dodge -- it is a great motor, I drive the 400 HP model with an Allison behind it.

[Paintdude]

Now if John Deere made a truck.. :D

The new Mexican Dodge would be my second choice..Very worthy of ownership..But is just aint a GM..

[4diesels]

Hey Al, Yours might be just dandy but, have you considered the plight of the hundreds of posters on the engine forum who have had injector problems? Or have you considered the fact that GM is admitting there is a problem with the duramax and issued longer extended warranties to cover their butt? I'm glad yours is working great but there is some creedance to the "people" telling you there are problems with this engine, and the transmission for that matter.

[gbeyer]

I agree with carl, i needed a stick. Neither GM or Ford could help.The cab is shorter, but much wider. Gives plenty of shoulder room for the three car seats in back. So far the only real complaint is the cheapness of the paint job.

[Turbo Al]

4-Diesels, With over 12,000 members I am sure there are more than a few (hundreds :confused: ) with injector problems BUT the longest post over on the 6600 forum is the people without injector problems --60 posts -- I realize that the injector problems span several posts but I sincerly doubt it is up in the hundreds. I also noticed that more than a few are running some kind of "POWER BOX" and having injector problems as well, so I would think that should tell you a couple of things -- Injectors are a possible weak point and the power boxes only add to the problem.

[ 08-03-2004, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Turbo Al ]

[Turbo Al]

4Diesels,
At my request Jim (More Power) has set up a POLL on the 6600 forum and I hope it helps clear the smoke on the Injection issue. It may take some time to get a large response but I am really sure it will be an accurate one. So everyone take 30 seconds and fill out the poll -- thanks.
Al

[4diesels]

With tens of thousands of these engines on the road now, how many failures do you think it takes for GM to give away extended warranties on the injectors? Do you honestly believe that it is less than "hundreds" of failures? When I do a search on "injectors" on the 6600 forum, I get 300 matches, over half appear to be negative without being overly scientific about it. The fact is, and you admit, the injectors are a weak point on this engine, much the same way injector pumps were problematic for the 6.5. I don't know how you could read this forum and not find yourself well advised to unload your duramax just shy of the engine warranty. It simply does not live up to GM's predictions for overhaul milage. Seems to me that most Cummins far exceed the 300k never needing injectors. The worst failure over there is the lift pump, which is not a multi thousand dollar repair.

[Turbo Al]

4diesels, I don't know how you can read that I said injectors are a weak spot on the 6600 motor when what I really said was "injectors are a POSSIBLE weak point" a world away from me saying that injectors are a weak point on the 6600.
In the beginning GM claimed a 200,000 mile life for the 6.6 so if you can't live with that buy a Dodge or Ford.

My 6.5 still has the original injection pump -- never been worked on and still starts just fine with 180,000 miles on it.

This is the Drive train forum so if you would like to continue to talk about injectors please post on the 6600 forum --

Thankyou

Al

[4diesels]

Oh...I see, can't take the heat, better move the kitchen?

You guys here like to slam the others and blow these trucks up into something they are not, then claim the other site is too negative. At least somebody lives in reality. This is crazy, can't admit these trucks aren't perfect? I am on the wrong site. Sure would like the $20 back, I'd quit posting post haste. This is nothing more than a GM fantasy land.

The facts are being COMPLETELY ignored. GM has admitted there is a problem, you haven't addressed that yet. Why bury your head in the sand? They don't give away extended warranties on injectors just for fun do they? All kinds of facts being ignored, you crack me up Al.

[Turbo Al]

4diesel
There are a few guidelines on the Forums one is to stick to the related forum topic. You are not doing this, instead you persist in bringing up the injection issue in the Drivetrain Forum. As I type the Poll is running (in the correct Forum) and it already has some interesting results, which are (so far) contrary to what you are posting.
Yes you are right
..... :D I DO LOVE MY TROUBLE FREE GM :D

[ore.diesel]

I LOVE MY TRUCK!!!

[4diesels]

Yep, just a GM fantasy land here. Have you guys even owned another brand in the last ten years? This whole thing is pretty dang funny really. I have all three brands working under the same conditions and the GM is the poorest excuse for a work truck I have yet to see. That is why I traded the '01 D/A, nobody wanted to drive it anymore. The '03 is my wifes, a perfect womans rig.

If you guys ever get your heads out of the sand you might find out you have been being duped for years. Take a trip over the Dodge dealer, he sells more truck for less money.

[ochster]

I,m stepping up to a one ton. I stopped and looked at and drove a dodge 3500. Finances play a major role in this decision so I have been hoping the less expensive Dodge would feel decent. I figured if it was not offensive I would buy it and save the thousands I really cannot afford to spend. Long story short the Dodge is a far cry from the quality of the Chevy. Thier is no need to list everything it is evident from the minute you open the door to looking at the average resale figures. As bad as I need a larger truck I cannot accept owning the Dodge. I just expect a certain level of pride in ownership when spending the kind of dollars these vehicle require. I paid more for a home with some security, asthetics, pride of ownership and resale. I just convinced myself I will buy a GM again for the same reasons. Not trying to start anything just my opinion.

[OC_DMAX]

4diesels - I would suggest not getting to comfortable about the injector issue and your Dodge. The injection system is made by the same company (Bosch). All you have to do is read several of the Dodge forums and you will see people are having injector issues. In the case of the Dodge, it appears to be a low RPM knock. A different type of problem than the DMAX, not of the same magnitude (DMAX has two year jump)but a problem none the less. Another Bosch black eye. I personally doubt you will see too many 300K mile Cummins HPCR engines without failed Bosch injectors. The good ole days of the Cummins that runs forever without major repairs are gone (my opinion). Once these newer engines are out of warranty, Dodge owners will be faced with the same high cost issues that the DMAX owners face. (The Cummins compares with the LLY design. The LB7 design is definetly more expensive to service than either of the previous ones mentioned. Trying to be positive, at least the Cummins only has 6 injectors to replace!)

Enjoy your new truck. My next truck may also be a Dodge. Not for the engine though, I just like the looks better than what Chevrolet currently offers.

[4diesels]

ochster, Contrary to what it may look like, I do not want a war either. It just bugs the heck out of me when people refuse to identify a vehicles shortcomings. I have a dozen vehicles between my business and the seven personal ones. That includes three Mercedes and two Porsches. I am honst enough with myself, to admit to anyone, that every last one of them is flawed in some way. That doesn't seem to be the case with some folks here.

Now back to the topic. I wonder what you didn't like about the Dodge? I think that saying the quality was bad is just too broad a stroke. Quality means different things to different people I guess. I can say that I have owned two D/A trucks, and that they have required more repairs than my '99 Ford, or either of my Dodge trucks. For that matter the only failure on my 240k mile Ford was a waterpump at 35k miles. I honestly have not had a single repair stop for either of my Dodge trucks, one has over 40k, the other over 60k. My '03 Chev has been in for the service 4wd light, a bad brake booster, and burnt tranny fluid (yet unresolved). I guess I tend to focus more on downtime and the mechanicals when I speak of quality. By that standard the "others" have honestly served me much better than my last four GM trucks.

Now, when you open the door of a cheap plastic clad Dodge, I can understand the impression of lower quality. I am the first to admit that my LT trim Chev has MUCH better seats, though the quality of the leather itself stinks, much better sound system, and is generally a nicer place to be. But, the fact that I had to fit decent mirrors to the '01 because the factory tow mirrors stink (as do the ones on my '03) decent shocks as the factory ones are flaccid beyond comprehension, and the stock tires are a joke. By comparison both Ford and Dodge offer nice large trailer mirrors that work far better than GM's. The come with firm shocks that allow you to haul loads at speed in safety. They come with good sized tires that carry more than GM's choice and look like the belong on a truck not a trike.

For all that I am willing to give on the illusion of quality the General provides. I am also not happy with the flimsy bed the GM trucks have. Ever notice how easily the tops of the rails are dented? Ford and Dodge do better here as well. I wholeheartedly agree that for the money we are spending, they should ALL do better, my Chev stickered for $48k, that is hard to swallow for a truck built to marginal standards using poor quality materials. Problem is, I need trucks, so something has to give, and here I am ;)

So if it was the look and feel of the interior of the Dodge, I certainly sympathise, but the actual quality isn't the culprit, it is the lackluster design. I would find it difficult to believe that the actual mechanicals dissappointed. The Cummins is different than the d-max. One drives like a car with the power up the rev band (at least that is where the Allison forces it to work) and the other torques out like a big rig. The Cummins powerband takes some getting used to but I find it addictive and prefer it to the 6.0 Ford and the d-max.

Just curious as to what it was you didn't like smile.gif

OC, As stated above, I am aware that they all have flaws. I happen to disagree because supposedly the injector design was improved for '03 (that is what I have heard, correct me if I am wrong) , that would be the first year Dodge used the new injectors. Do you think Bosch would not supply the same improved injectors to Cummins? I also have 100k combined miles on those new trucks without a single complaint. In fact, drivers satisfaction is MUCH higher than when they had a loaded LS D/A to drive :confused: You COULD be right. The "noise" the Dodge guys are hearing, in my opinion, is not a terminal failure like the d-max. I bet that it is the same old noise the Cummins always made, you just couldn't hear yourself think over the racket before tongue.gif The look of the Dodge is better than the Chev, I am OK with GMC, just couldn't find one I liked at the time, and the drive is addictive, not fast like a d-max, but more powerful feeling, tons of low end. The new platform is very solid, I just wish they could provide a decent interior.

[ochster]

I had some negatives towards the Dodge going into this. My fifth wheel 14K Sundowner horse trailer would have to be raised to accomadate the high Dodge bed panels. I also have a friend who owns a transmission shop and lets just say the Dodge auto has a track record and I want the auto.

Upon first entering the truck it has a very distinct vinyl plastic aroma it brings your attention to the fact that is entirely what it is made of. Being short I found the seats very awkward to get comfy and actually very bench like in design. I travel frequently for 4-5 days on end and simply found this unaceptable. At my size many of the controls on the dash were not naturaly laid out. Even the cup holder seemed like something from a dollar store. The interior is very much laid out/designed like a base work truck. I anticipated the motor was going to win me over but that did not happen either. The shifting was quite clunky and while the power felt decent, It was not better than my duramx. The sheet metal was very flimsy, although they all are getting there.

I travel with several other Fords and Dodges. Both brands commonly average substantial less miles per gallon than the duramax. Funny I was actually considering the Dodge and several of my compadres are considering the Duramax. It is only my opinion but I believe the overall package on the GM is hard to beat. If I needed a work truck to be used and maybe a little abused, I probaly would save the money and get the dodge with a 6spd. But I'm afraid my family has become very comfortable with the GM package as daily driver as well as our RVer.

Truth be told I have baught multiple new GM's and one new Ford. They both seem to be horrible when it comes to customer satisfaction. It is like picking the lesser of the evils. My one Ford purchase cost me thousands and soured me for life, never again.

[OC_DMAX]

4diesels -

I believe the early DMAX injectors are defective. The average 2001-2002 DMAX will most likely not get past 100K miles without the need for an injector replacement. This is well short of the design goal of 200K miles. When we hear of "cracked injector bodies", this is a design problem. Properly designed products do not exhibit thermal and/or stress cracks at half their designed product life. GM has a problem, they know it, and they decided to set the terms and conditions of the settlement with their customers before the lawyers and/or government did. My opinion. Other than the above, I thoughly enjoy my 2002 DMAX. Best vehicle I have ever owned.

With respect to the Dodges, the injector failure mode seems substantially different than the DMAX. More of an infant mortality issue. At least from what I have read. However, like I stated above (and time will tell) but the injectors will eventually fail (might take 200K miles???) Then the repair bill will come and it will be substantially more than what most people are used too. The positive aspect of the Cummins engine is that after the warranty period is over, their are many independent repair shops that can work on the engine. You are no longer constrained to the Dodge dealership.

As everyone can tell by reading these forums (for Ford, Dodge and GM products), the complexity of the modern diesel engine has increased substantially in the last 5 years. EACH manufacture will go through some growing pains. At the present time, Dodge seems to have the fewest problems, GM has more problems and Ford had an absolute disaster in the launch of their new product a year ago. No matter what brand anyone buys, the cost of running a modern, emission compiant diesel is more than it was 5 years ago. The key issue in my mind with all three manufactures is the injector cost. They need to get the replacement cost down under $2K. A cost of $5K to replace all eight injectors after 100K miles is a little hard to swallow. At the $5K cost, it is no longer economically feasible to run these engines.

[4diesels]

ochester, Like I said, I can't argue with the interior comments, the Dodges are sub-par. I am baffled by your comment on fuel milage though. Both of my d-max trucks have been hogs. On my 32k mile '03 the computer says 13 mpg lifetime and 75% of that is highway. My '01 was no better and when towing it drops rapidly into single digits. Driving slow cures that but I also have a long trip several times a year to make, and slow is not in the cards when the speed limit it 75mph. On the contrary my Dodges both get 19mpg even cruising at 80mph. They drop to 12-13 with a load on. Then, as a side note, the Dodge trans has been upgraded substantially taking notes from aftermarket guys like Suncoast. Both of mine are autos and the dually hauls big daily with no issues after 60k+ miles. That is fixed, the crappy front suspension on the 4x4s is fixed, the frame is fully hydroformed for strength, they are really coming around IMO.

That brings me to OC's comment about cost of ownership. The d-max is a $5k hit. The milage stinks so I will never re-coup that except a partial on resale. I could have run a gas 6.0 or 8.1, gotten similar milage and saved $5k. Hopefully Bosch will come to the plate, they are undoubtably under pressure to do so already.

[jbplock]

4diesels & ronniejoe,

Each of your last posts were deleted. Please follow the forum rules and stay on topic… personal attacks are not allowed...

[ 08-20-2004, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: jbplock ]