View Full Version : Intercooler update (with pictures)
In case anybody has not been following this. I am building an intercooler that is cast aluminum and bolts to the top of the intake. Inside the castings will be an evaporator from an air conditioner. I have not decided whether I will pump water through this and use a small radiator to cool the water or if I will hook this to my airconditioner compressor and use the freon to cool it.
I have a couple pictures of it setting on the truck. I have not drilled it for the bolt holes yet but the two halves are machined where they bolt together. I still have to cast the pipe that will connect the intercooler to the turbo. You can see a place on the front that did not clean up when I machined it but this is where a slot will be milled to allow the air into the intercooler.
http://my.raex.com/~jpfarmer/.photos/intercoolermountedontruck/intercooler001.jpg
http://my.raex.com/~jpfarmer/.photos/intercoolermountedontruck/intercooler002.jpg
If this all works out, I will be offering these three castings for sale.
MTTwister
04-06-2004, 07:03
Jim - wll the price include installation? :D
Looks really good, clean, compact.
You were considering the potential condensation problems I recall. If you put the exchanger at a slight angle, would the water tend to drip to the low point, and then to a drain outlet of some sort?
I would guess that any condensate inside the cast box would (except after shutdown of engine) get sucked into the intake, which would be OK. Probably minimal condensate & it was water in the intake air anyway that would have gone into the combustion mix.
MTtwister,
The problem with any kind of drain is that it would leak boost.
UCDavis,
I agree that the condensation would be no more water than what the engine would have consumed anyway. The only difference is now the water will be in liquid form rather than a vapor. Like you stated, the real problem will probably be when it is shut down. If too much water were to lay in the bottom of the intake, at startup it may all get sucked into one cyl. and cause problems.
When I test this(which is hopefully this weekend) I am just planning to run water through the intercooler and see if the intercooler can successfully transfer the heat from the air to the water. I am just planning on putting a water tank in the bed for testing. I am going to put two temperature gauges in the intake system, one before the evaporator and one after. If it does tranfer the heat well, the next project is getting the heat out of the water but I feel that adding a small radiator or trans. cooler to the truck will be much easier than installing an air to air intercooler. You won't have to route all those big boost pipes, just a small coolant line.
Also, These three castings will be less than half the cost of an air to air intercooler. The evaporator is $99.00 at Autozone but it is out of an 88 ford f-150 so it's cost would very reasonable from a salvage yard.
Where are you going to put the two sensors that were on the upper intake? (boost and temperature)
They should be after the intercooler for the computer to get correct readings.
If you just use water, you shouldn't have any condensation.
Hi Jim P
An interesting idea.
I would expect the use of an AC cooled system would be the way to go for these reasons. The total heat you could disapate with a water cooled system by ambient air is going to be much less than what you can achieve with AC. Also a water cooled system runs the risk of damaging an engine if the intercooler ever sprung a leak.
Someone mentioned condinsate as a possible problem with an AC system. The temperatures you will be operating at I dought very much if you will ever reach the dew point and produce condinsate. Even if you do the velocity of the air flow and the heat of the intake manifold will most likely vaporize any droplets long before they reach te cylinders. As for condinsate that may be produced after shutdown the engine heat will vaporize that very fast.
Now for some consideration of the AC system. You will need a metering device that can adjust freon flows in a much greater ranges than the capillary type used in an auto type system. Sporland valve makes a series of valve that adjusts flow as a function of the suction line temperature and if sized right and if the compressor is large enough would be the way to go. You also might want to consider using other than freon 12 because of the head pressure this heavy a load will subject the condensor to.
pannhead
04-06-2004, 17:02
jim, that water will get hot quick..a small trans cooler aint gonna cut it...hate to be so blunt,but i know from personal experience...the heat absorbed from the intercooler MUST be dissipated or you'll just be circulating hot/warm water...IMHO,there is no way a trans cooler will be able to keep up...this is the weakest link with a liquid intercooler system,so alot of attention should be given there....ok, that's my .02 cents for the record......by the way, i've been VERY impressed with what i've seen,i wish i had those skills...look forward to your testing results especially if you go a/c
Whatnot,
I was planning to drill and tap the lower casting below the evaporator for the intake temp. sensor. I was planning to mount the boost sensor in the pipe going from the turbo to the intercooler. I realize that the boost pressure here will be a pound or so higher than after the intercooler but I really don't think that will make much difference.
HowieE,
I really am not set on the method to cool this but if I use the Ac, I was planning to use r134 because that is what the truck system has in it now. I do not know much about Ac systems so any help is appreciated.
Pannhead,
I realize a single trans. cooler will probably not keep up. I was just trying to show that the liquid cooler has more options for cooling than the air to air because the smaller coolant lines are much easier to route than the big boost pipes. I think even you said that yours has more than one means of cooling the water. A guy could even mount some kind of cooler back under the bed and use electric fans to help cool. Running boost pipes all the way back there would be difficult but the coolant lines would be a breeze.
It sounds like everybody really wants me hook it to the Ac so I guess I will have to try it.
Jim
If you used a control system that kicked the AC compressor on when intake temps climbed above ?? and shut down when cool I don't think you would have to worry about condsentation at shutdown. I would think intake temps would only be high enough to require the cooling at hard pulling, by the time you were parked and ready to shutdown hopfully it would be dry.
MTTwister
04-08-2004, 16:56
ok, how 'bout this - not too complicated -
Use an A/C evaporative cooler to chill the recirculated water. Just a little extra plumbing.. :D
I finally got the pipe to the turbo cast tonight. Like the other castings, the first one has a few problems but I think it is usable to test the intercooler. So with any luck, it will be cooling some intake air this weekend. Here are the pictures.
http://my.raex.com/~jpfarmer/.photos/intercoolerpipe/intercooler001.jpg
The lug on the left is for the bracket that attaches to the turbo. The longer one next to it is for the boost sensor to mount on.
http://my.raex.com/~jpfarmer/.photos/intercoolerpipe/intercooler002.jpg
You can see a hole to the right of the slot for the air. This was not supposed to be there but I think there will be enough surface to seal the boost for testing this intercooler.
TurboDiverArt
04-09-2004, 13:14
You're a pretty talented guy in my book Jim! Looks great.
Please let us know how it works out!
Art.
I got everything machined, drilled and tapped. I mounted everything up but I found out that the boost sensor wires are not long enough to reach the place where I was planning to mount it. I guess I will have to do a little more engineering there.
I did drive the truck and it does run better even without the evaporator hooked to anything but I think this is because I do not have the intake air temperature sensor mounted to anything. The wires are hooked up but it is just laying on top of the manifold.
Now I have to get the evaporator plumbed up.
Here is a picture.
http://my.raex.com/~jpfarmer/.photos/intercoolerpipe/intercooler.jpg
Well I used an old garden hose to run from the evaporator, down under the cab and up between the cab and bed. At this end I have a 12 volt pump and a 5 gal. bucket with two pipes in the side. I filled the bucket with about 4 gal. of water out of the well which is about 50*. After I took it for a short drive(about 4 miles), the water was about the temperature of bath water so the evaporator does seem to transfer the heat to the water pretty well. Earlier I took the same drive without having any water hooked to the evaporator and the intake got very warm. This time with the water, the intake was cool to the touch.
I have to get some temperature gauges hooked up to get accurate readings.
To you guys with burbs that have rear air, Where do they tee off the ac lines to go to the rear evaporator? If it is close to the front evaporator, it would not be difficult to hook this intercooler to the ac system. If I knew how the burbs are set up, I could probably get the tees from GM. Anybody have any pics of their burbs ac system?
I drilled and tapped my castings to put in temp. gauges, one above the evaporator and one below. They are slow to react because they are water temp. gauges but I did get the upper one to go up to 140* F but the lower one never came off the peg and it starts at 100*F, so the intercooler does seem to be cooling the air.
Is it possible to buy gauges that are designed to measure intake air temp.?
a5150nut
04-10-2004, 21:26
Jim,
You might find something at a regular gage company. Not specificly automotive. Maybe even WW Granger.
I have a dual air 'Burb. I will try to get some pictures of the fittings you ask about.
Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't the evaporator need to be oriented vertically to work properly? Seems to me that the liquid needs to be at the bottom of the evaporator and the vapor at the top.
As far as temp measurement, you might consider a cheap digital instrument designed to be used in the house where there is a remote temp sensor. The kind that measures outside temp by a wire fed out a window. They will register temps well over 100*. May be a problem fitting it in the pressurized housing.
badburban
04-11-2004, 14:41
Jim P
Ive got rear air on my burb. Its a gasser but Ill try and get some pics up for you. I just need to see if my buddy is home with his digi camera.
On a side note where in salem do you live. My grandparents live on stratton rd. I may have to check out your truck sometime when Im down there as its close to what I want to build when I find a diesel.
Josh
Josh,
I have a salem address but I actually live between Salem and Damascus. Just a few miles south of State Route 62.
That would be great if you could get me some pics of the ac system.
gymcarm,
You may be right about the evaporator needing to stand up for use with freon. It did in the truck that I removed it from. Like I said in earlier posts, I do not know much about a/c systems.
I do know that pumping water through the evaporator seems to cool very well.
ANXIOUS-SUBMAN
04-11-2004, 18:31
Evaporator coils are generally oriented vertically or slanted to encourage the controlled drainage and collection of the condensate from the coil surface. And yes, the refrigerant enters the coil as a low density liguid and "evaporates" into a gas before leaving the coil. With the heat load that will be on this coil I doubt there will be any problem getting an expansion valve adjusted to provide too much refrigerant, if anything too little. In addition, in any low load condition where the coil may become flooded, automotive ac system usually have accumulators to "accumulate" the excessive liquid refrigerant before it gets back to the compressor where it would do harm. Your right, gymcarm, it's not the optimum orientation for an evaporator and may not work to it's best possible efficiency but I think this could work if set up correctly by someone with refrigeration experience. I've been following this thread for some time. I know your looking for a full time system of cooling the charge air, JimP, but what about metering CO2 through your coil on a demand basis. Such as http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=4 This might be a simpler solution. However, years and years ago I used to do a "pipe freeze" to isolate leaks for repair or to replace bad valves on the lower floors of a hot water heating system. The pipe freeze kit was designed for R12 but when it become illegal to vent refrigerant I tried CO2 once but had problems with it freezing up the exit orifices on the pipe freeze kit. Keep at it Jim, you'll have something pretty cool when you get there.
Jim-
1) Wow. I'm impressed.
2) I like the idea of water cooling, though you will need a much larger reservoir. In fact I'm thinking something the size of a small hot tub. And if you could siphon off just a bit of the boost for the jets... And get a franchise for mobile beer sales... This'd be a real seller in resort towns. Kinda like the parasailing business.
badburban
04-12-2004, 14:59
JimP
Sorry for the delay. Having a hard time getting my buddy over here with his camera (hes busy when Im not and Im busy when hes not) but Ill have em for you tomorrow for sure.
Josh
Jim P...I have those pictures. They are from a 96 K2500 6.5. The low pressure "T" is right at the inlet of the compressor. The high pressure "T" is below the right battery very close to the radiator.
I tried to post the pics here like you did, but can't figure it out. Lemme know how to get you these photos.
GYMCARM,
To post a picture, you first have to have it online somewhere. I get free web space from my internet provider and that is where mine are.
After you have them online you just type this line in your post
then the url of the picture
You type it just like that with the brackets and no spaces in between anything.
If that don't work just e-mail them to me.
jpfarmer@raex.com
MTTwister
04-18-2004, 09:04
"I drilled and tapped my castings to put in temp. gauges, one above the evaporator and one below. They are slow to react because they are water temp. gauges but I did get the upper one to go up to 140* F but the lower one never came off the peg and it starts at 100*F, so the intercooler does seem to be cooling the air.
Is it possible to buy gauges that are designed to measure intake air temp.?"
Jim P - I read somewhere that one guy cut the external bulb off the probes to expose the internal sensor for 'quicker' readings. Not sure his application - but - it's a thought.
Very nice work!
Hey how bout throwing some Ice in the bucket to chill the water? 1.50 a bag, and 2 bags every time you stop to fill up? Save on the A/C "plumbing" - only a few minor drawbacks ... tongue.gif
jimcreek
04-20-2004, 16:49
on the subject of your air temp gauges your local Thermo King dealer has nice digital gauges that measures air temp. CHECK WITH THEM TO SEE IF TEMP. RANGE WILL GO HIGH ENOUGH FOR WHAT YOU ARE DOING. I have a digital meter that I picked up at my local refrigeration wharehouse. My meter has 3 temp. ports to measure temp. in three diferrent places and a delta temp. function.
had meter for years I think I paid less than $100.00. I beleive tiff makes it.
your system looks great hope to see the results soon.
hope this helps
the air temp. response is very fast.
pannhead
04-20-2004, 18:25
i have an autometer air intake temp gauge,reacts just as fast as egt gauge...i got REALLY lucky on ebay,got it for $50...retails about $300...you can find cheaper ones there too
rhill2901
04-21-2004, 21:58
An automotive, or for that matter, a typical air conditioning system is fairly simple. a compressor pressurizes freon (or any liquid with a low boiling point) against an orifice. This pressurized freon is cooled by flowing air across the tubes, (ie, radiator). The other side of the orifice is at a lower pressure, and since the freon molecules are expanding, they lack the same amount of heat that the pressurized freon possess. This expanding gas is sent through more tubes (or a radiator) with flowing air across them to "cool". The resevour is added to the low pressure side for excess freon collection.
Just an idea, instead of using the air conditioning system on the vehicle, why not use a refrigerator compressor system? Refrigerators use pure amonia which boil at -27, much lower than freon. Why not try using liquid nitrogen if you want even better results? How about a RV kerosene refrigerator system? They use kerosene to boil a water/amonia mixture to create a continuous cycle absorption system.
Just a few ideas...
wireweld
04-28-2004, 18:58
What happened?
Still waiting! Please let us know! Cudaaa
I didn't mean to leave you guys hanging but I recently bought a fifth wheel camper and I have been really busy getting it ready to go camping. I also decided to do a little painting on my truck because it was a fleet truck and had a big wide, ugly tan stripe and two small brown stripes. I thought it would neat to paint the brown stripes black and paint two wider green stripes, two narrow brown stripes and a gold stripe in the middle of the original tan stripe. This color scheme would match the stripes on the 5er. To make a long story short, this turned out to be a much bigger project than I expected.
I am also fixing up an old dodge Dart for an uncle, rebuilding a fork lift engine for my shop and I also had to machine two solid steel flywheels for a couple of pulling tractors. I am doing all this while working 56 hours a week at the shop.
I simply have not had time to add some kind of cooler for the water. I kind of gave up on using the AC system to cool the intercooler. I am still running with the intercooler in place but just driving to work I have not been pumping water through it because it is only 8 miles to work and I really don't need it. I checked my milage just the other day and I am getting 16 driving this 8 miles to work. So the intercooler don't seem to restrict the air enough to effect milage.
I am going to pull my 5er to Cooks Forest state park in june so I am hoping that I can get some kind of water cooler mounted on the truck before this. This trip would be a good test for the intercooler.
markrinker
05-28-2004, 08:50
Very 'cool' project, Jim. I admire your ingenuity!
Rather than abandoning the AC approach - what if you stuck with your air/water method under the hood, but routed the resulting heated water through an aluminum cooler - sandwiched together with an AC evaporator - and blew fan-forced air through it?
PermaCool makes such a unit (Summit PRN-12318) for cooling two different fluids with a 10" fan.
Just a thought, I know nothing about AC line pressures...
I was upgrading to the high output water pump today and I decided to plumb a line from the spare port on the water pump to my liquid intercooler. I was hoping this port would have enough suction to pull water through the ic. The other line on my intercooler was plumbed to bottom of the radiator on the passengers side. I just did this to see if the water pump would circulate the water through the IC but I found out that it does not. I even took one of the lines off at the IC when the engine was running but it has neither pressure nor vaccum. It seems that the only way to get any circulation from the water pump would be to tap into the pressure side which would be hot water and kind of defeating the purpose. I think an electric pump and an independent cooling system for the ic is the only way to go.
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