Allison in 2nd Hi, Pulling, Blocks, Traction Bars

[Kyle03D]

I've been to enough pulls now I know I need more wheel speed. I have plenty of power in 1st. I watched Berns and Clint in Terre Haute both try to run 2 high and it shifted to 3rd and killed the pull. HOW CAN WE GET THE ALLISON TO STAY IN SECOND? There has to be somthing we can do electronicly. The way limp mode can lock it in 3rd. We have to be able to lock it in 2nd.

BowTieDmax, It sounds like you have been trying to figure this out. What have you come up with?

OK, Rear suspension, Need somthing, I don't think I want to try blocks without traction bars. I've looking at others setups at the pulls I've been to. I Have good ideas for the blocks. But I want to put on traction bars with them. Anyone done this yet?

CPMac, The 03 auto that was with you did awsome at terre haute. It put 20 feet on me. Was it setup with only blocks and traction bars for the rear? Or the heavy extra springs? I couldn't tell if he was just in first or second gear either?

I think we can get those dodge owners worrying more about Chevys showing them up.

Thanks, Kyle

[heartbeatcanada]

Kyle

I've got timbrens in place of my oem bump stops. Don't know if you've seen them, but they are a heavy rubber spacer that bolts in where your bump stops go and come in contact with top of your axle. I 've got mine set up that they are touching the axle when empty so they help out as soon as there is any weight on the truck. They are hollow and when a load is put on the truck they compress down. They are suppose to be rated for i think 5000lbs. I've had over 3000lbs in the box of my truck and it should have been dragging the bumper, but it only squated 2-3 inches lower than empty. Empty the truck rides a little rough. They work awesome for pulling. I've watched my videos after and the truck barely squats(it looks like a dually pulling, as they hardly squat). I have no problem with bouncing are hopping, as i was worried that they being rubber that would make things worse, but not the case.

I was thinking of the next pull, i was gonna try 2nd on the high side, or 3rd on the low. I;m leaning towards the low side. I was thinking the exact same thing that i need more wheel speed instead of riding the limiter down the track. I have the quad 215 so the extra rpm range should come into play as well.

Front locker is going in tomorrow, so that solves the traction problem. Tranny goes in next Monday, so then i will be able to see how it shifts on the low side. Right now the tranny doesn't like the shifts with the 215 quad and a little something from edge stacked, either in 2wd or trying to figure out what gear to use in the pulls.

What are you running for power adders??? I've been running the hot juice and the predator stacked, and have got 1-1st,2-3rds, and 1-4th. Can't wait to pull with my new set up, as i was just on the dodges rear before, i'm hoping this puts me over the top. I know they were allready scared, as all they talked about was how impressed they were with only programming done, whereas they have turbo, chip, injectors and are just barely beating me. Next pull for me is Sept.13th. Later Jeremy smile.gif

[WhiteDuramax]

Has anyone successfully ran blocks in the rear without the truck bouncing and hopping? If so, were you using traction bars, is anyone running traction bars on their max for pulling? CPMac you sure seem to be doing pretty good! Tomac, hows the single strap working?? Pulling season is getting close to being over, guess we will all have to work on our trucks all winter so we can woop on the Dodge boys!!

[CPMac632]

Kyle the 03 had traction bars and heavy overloads. I don't think anyone will ever succesfully pull 2nd hi. I think since the converter can't be locked in 1st the wheelspeed isn't there like it should be in first high. 3rd low is a slower gear but should always attain the same or more wheelspeed. Michael Tomac records his instruments on a lot of his runs and I don't think he has ever seen wheelspeed in 1st high over what is achievable in 3rd low and when you throw some extra rpm's to it in 3rd low the wheelspeed should be up there with a lot of the strong Dodge's. When you go to second high there is to much of a jump in speed to be able to use that gear. If you locked the converter it would kill it just like Clint's truck at Muncie and Scheid.

[Coghlin]

Heartbeatcanada,

Where are you pulling next? I noticed you are in Ontario.

[Kyle03D]

Ok I was just figureing the gear ratios based on the allison and the transfer case (2.72).

3rd Low about 3.835 (i think) I used a roundabout way of figureing that out.
1st High 3.10
2nd high 1.81

So what you are saying is that in 1st gear the torque converter doesn't lock so i'm not putting all the rpms into the tranny? So, in 3rd gear the torque converter does lock? which puts all the rpms through the tranny and even though the over all ratio after the transfer case is higher, we can still get more wheel speed?

I'm new at this so I don't know exactly how torque converters work, I'm guessing based on what you said.

Then the question is, how do we start in 3rd lo without having to shift to get there. Limp mode locks it in 3rd. Is there a way to put it in limp mode without actually making it slip enough to do it itself?

Is the transfer case fine with the rpms of 3rd gear and the power?

heartbeat, I have a tst comp only, I need to send it back for the update. calling tommorrow. It cuts out bad when pulling (under load)at only 5,6 settings.

CPMac, So what are the advantages of the heavy overloads over blocking? Do the traction bars not control all the hop when blocked? I have never hopped but it makes me mad how smooth the dodges pull the whole way and I saw how you started a little hopping at schieds. BTW, Congrats, you did awesome.

I have a lot to learn about pulling, why some hop and others don't.

Thanks, Kyle

[ 09-01-2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Kyle03D ]

[heartbeatcanada]

Coghlin

My next pull is in Fergus(about halfway between Owen Sound and Hamilton on Sept.13th, Grand Valley which is closer to you Sept 21st and Milton Sept27th. Might try and make it to Lindsay again if they will let the diesels run???
If you show up i'll be the one with the cowl induction hood, can't miss me. :D

Do you pull with your truck???? Never seen a 6.5 pull yet, would like like to though.Later Jeremy tongue.gif

[heartbeatcanada]

Kyle

If you started off in 3rd low(limp) i would be suprised if you even moved the sled. I had to plow snow like that one night(damn NSBU switch) and trust me it was all the truck could do to get moving with the blade pushing snow, which is nowhere near the weight of the sled. Even if you did get the sled rolling your wheel speed would be so slow. The key is to get your tires spinning, which once your tires hook, you've got great wheel speed which gives you high mphs and big momentum.

I've watched guys crawl out of the gate and wait for 20 feet to start pouring the coals to her and they just don't get the speed or momentum that all us other guys do that boost up and are gettting wheel speed, which usually is giving us 40-50 more feet than them with comparable performance and such. The only way to start out in a higher gear right off the start would be with a ZF and riding it a little at the begining.

With the allison and how tempermental she is its all a chess game, one set up might work one night and not so great the next. I've been told a guy pulled a dmax last year with the 90hp juice and stuck it in 4lo and overdrive and beat everybody in that class(some high power dodges and 1 ford) Now if we did that you know the outcome, prolly shift in and out of gear about 10 times and just make it past the 75ft mark. One never knows until he tries.Later Jeremy :cool:

[Kyle03D]

3rd low is more gear than 1st high. Am I missing somthing?

[CPMac632]

I don't think you need to lock it in 3rd gear to take off just step on it and let it shift to third. That in some cases will reduce wheelspin and actually get you moving faster. To find the ratio of the gear you are in just multiply all the ratio's together to get a final ratio.

2nd low 18.36
3rd low 14.30
1st high 11.56
4th low 10.14
2nd high 6.75
You can figure tire speed off of these ratio's and figure where you need to be for the track conditions and power you have. The automatic can slip even with the converter locked but it should be very minimal. With the converter unlocked if there is enough traction the tires can stop and the engine can still be screamin. The suspension can be very tricky. Everything has to work together to keep it from bouncing. I tried something different at Scheid and that caused me to bounce in every class but the last one.

[Kyle03D]

So in 3rd it Does lock, and in 1st it doesnt? And that makes up for 3rd low being a lower gear?

[CPMac632]

Yep that is right as a rule. There however could be an extremely bad track or light sled where 1st high could still achieve more mph than 3rd low but you could also use 4th low and be faster than first high. I sometimes ride the clutch 150 ft trying to keep the tires hooked up so low range would do that for an automatic to an extent but I would get on it very fast. No need to boost it up in low range but by 5 ft you should have it on the floor. You also have to put it in tow haul to lock the converter. I think you would want to lock overdrive out because it would probably snuff the engine if it shifts to that gear.

[BowTieDmax]

Well I've tried just about everything to use 2 high and just havent any luck. Ive tried a tech 2 but it would still shift back and forth to 1st. The best luck I had was just putting the truck in 2 high and letting it do its own thing but the down shift is "long". I will loose almost all boost before it takes off again. I was going to try 2 high again a couple of of nights ago at a pull. But this time I was going to just use the qaud 215 program. I started thinking that maybe stacking the juice with that might be causing the delayed downshift. But at the pull the other night the track was really wet so I just used high 1st. Yes I do have traction bars now that I use with the blocks. So with the bars I can finally use the blocks without a bounce. I had a really bad bounce problem that I finally fiqured out was the hitch LENGHT. I can asure you guys that if you want to use blocks then you need the hitch point as close to your bumper as possible. Because atleast with a ext cab shortbox. The blocks will be your pivit point (I quess are trucks have a light front end). Or if you hang weights it will help this situation. I had a hitch burnt out of a 2" steel plate that kinda looks like a "L" that slids into the reciever then its 3" thick that goes up 10". Then I drilled holes every 2" for hitch height. As for the 3 low being faster then 1st high. I must be missing something because if I go on the road and try both gear combo's then 1 high is still much faster. I can say that unless we find out how to get much more wheel speed (atleast 45-50 mph)then I'm about truck pulled out. Because I'm about tired of placing behind the dodges.And the only thing they have on us is wheel speed. Oh yea I made my bars. I will try to get some pictures.
Good day !!
Paul smile.gif tongue.gif

[mtomac]

I have ground speed radar on my truck with a readout in the cab. With the webcam over my left shoulder hooked to a laptop I can record and compare actual ground speed from the radar vs wheelspeed on the speedometer after a pull. I can see what gear works the best for a particular track and what gear give me the best groundspeed not just the most wheelspeed.

From what I've seen so far. In any weight class from 6800-8000 on looser tracks with any size sled I will use 1st high. On tighter tracks in light classes I will either use 1st high or 3rd low depending on the sled size. But on a tighter track in a heavier class I will drop to 3rd low especially with a big heavy sled.

Using 3rd low in some situations is better because you're putting all the power to the ground with the converter locked in 3rd low. There is some power loss thru the converter in 1st high. Especially if you have the stock converter.

I've ran 3rd low once on a tight track with a heavy sled in a 8000# class. My truck with the ATS tranny shifted quick as hell in 3rd low. It went 1,2,TC lock,3 so fast and didn't downshift or unlock the converter because when I spun out it stalled the motor. Next time I'll try shutting off T/H to unlock the conveter when I'm spinning out.

I still want to try 4th low with the converter locked and see how that works on a couple different tracks and sleds but the right opportunity hasn't presented itself yet. It's hard trying new things that you don't know will work in front of a bunch of people.

with a 33" tire with a static loaded height of 31.67 used to calculate wheel speed @3200 with a 3.73 rear gear and 2.72 low ratio in the transfer case.

3rd low 21.1
1st high 26.1
4th low 29.7
2nd high 44.7

We really have 3 useable gears with the power we're currently making. 2nd gear high range is a bit much and that's why it wants to downshift to a 1st

In limp mode the truck will only have 3rd gear but the tranny will NOT go in T/H mode and the converter will NOT lock without T/H. I think power or rpm might be reduced in limp mode anyway.

[Kyle03D]

wow I've learned a lot. I'm not sure what I'll try next, but I now i'm much more educated about the options. I'm thinking I might try 4 lo, i'm not sure, i'll post results whenever I pull next, maybe it'll be friday. Thanks everyone.

BowTieDmax, Pictures would be awesome, I'll probably be making mine also.

Thanks

Kyle

[CPMac632]

Bowtie in third low you are around 5 mph slower unloaded but with the weight of the sled I doubt you would get the speedometer over 20 mph because the converter gives up so much. Next time your pulling see what your top mph is and see if it goes over what you could run in 3rd low.

[BowTieDmax]

Kyle03D,
I am not sure were you live in ohio but there is a few of us going to Jamestown P.A. for a pull friday night.
I might try 4 low (how about 4low drive)has any one done that. But I am searching for 40-50 mph wheel speed. And untill that is done we are not going to beat the big boys. We all have plenty of power. But the reason for more power in truck pulls is to achieve faster wheel speed and keep them spinning when the weight comes up. A couple of the fastest dodges I pull against use 2nd gear manual tranny in high range. And it shows as they move down the track.
Maybe I will try filming my dash with a camcorder next pull. I also have a GPS i will try to get in the shot.
I am really hoping some of the guys with the trannys try some differant stuff. Like 4low drive or 4 hi 2nd or 3rd. God knows I wasted a bunch of pulls trying stuff. And I am fully ready to buy a tranny, but I'd like to here of one that might do whats needed for the pulls. Oh well gotta go !!
:confused: IN NEED OF SPEED !! :(

[Kyle03D]

I'm with ya there man. I think I have the power for 40 mph, but I don't know, i need to get my box to quit cutting out. I'll most likely be getting a tranny in the next year also, but if there is one that will be better for pulling, that is what I'm after.

I live about 45 min west of columbus, so I won't be able to make it. I might not be able to make it to a pull only 1/2 hour away friday night. (work) Hopefully I can meet up with you sometime though, we got to get somthing working.


So, CPMac, what gear did the 03 auto run at schieds?

Thanks
Kyle

[ 09-04-2003, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: Kyle03D ]

[mtomac]

if you run 4th gear(Drive) low range make sure you lock out OverDrive

[CPMac632]

Kyle the 03 ran 3rd low. If you guys pull 4th low that will be as fast a gear as any diesel pickup pulling today with the exception that some are running that same gear with 3.55 rears. I doubt anyone will ever pull 2nd hi or OD low with an allison succesfully.