What d'ya think of this? Homemade intercooler

[BuffaloGuy]

I got an idea and thought I'd see what you all think.

I'm thinking of getting a used intercooler from a d**dge or a F**d and mounting it under the drivers side seat. It would be horizontal.

I will mount two of those radiator fans like you find in little cars on top of this. They will be set-up to push air down keyed off a sensor on the intercooler just like they were on a coolant radiator.

Then I will fashion appropriate shields to keep road grime and gravel from the assembly.

Of course, the turbo output would be plumbed down the drivers side of the motor where there is tons of room to get a pipe there and back.

In my mind, this would be better than than the current location. Under the front bumper scares me as I run off road in the brush and weeds. Also, the propsed location would afford room for a much bigger unit. About 2x as big. It seems the kit ones may be a little small.

Another benefit would be the fans that would give cooling even when not moving. If the fans can cool an entire motor (small as it may be) they should easily produce enough cooling capacity to cool just the intake air on a bigger motor.

I estimate this whole project would cost about $400 in parts. Labor should not be much more than installing a kit. Maybe an extra 4-5 hours.

Anybody thought of this before? Anybody done it? See any holes in the idea?
Ken

[pannhead]

i have a full size radiator w/duel flex-o-lite fans there for my liquid intercooler...everything good there .....but for an intercooler? i think you would get "turbo-lag" real bad,just to much volume to fill...

[jeffreydmet]

I too would like to install an intercooler without spending a ton of money. I keep thinking one could modify a regular radiator and use it.
I don't think the lag would increase much under the seat because you are only going to add volume for the equivalent of a few motor revolutions.

[HowieE]

There is a major diferance between the under bumper locatiion and under the truck itself. Ambient temperature. With the way I have my trans cooled I have determined it's operating temperature is determined by the air coming off the engine and under the truck. With the convertor locked and on the open road that temperature is 150 egrees F. Your intercooler would be working under this additional load if located under the truck and thus it's efficincy will be effected.

[BuffaloGuy]

I can't imagine it is 150F under the drivers seat and right infront of the fuel tank. I would think the floor board would get pretty warm and folks would be seeing pretty warm fuel temps to boot. A valid point though. I'm sure the air is warmer than in front. But I suspect the air is cool enough to do the job. Chevy uses the fuel as a coolant for the injector pump from the same general area.

Panhead...
I have also toyed with the idea of a liquid intercooler. I just saw one rated for 400 hp and thought it might be a better way to go. Of course, the first thing to mind is "That's all my radiator needs is more heat to deal with". As a solution I had envisioned having the exiting coolant from the intercooler go to a small car radiator with fans located under the drivers seat then routed back to the radiator. This should remove the heat from the IC before it reaches the radiator and perhaps even help with the cooling of the main radiator.

Would you share with us how your set-up works? Since I am not familiar with the liquid cooled variety I am wondering how well they work compared to air cooled. Specifically since the liquid coolant is about 200F and the air coolant is usually never more than 100F. Do they cool as well?

Can you educate me?
Ken

ps. After rereading your post Panhead it sounds like you may have done just what I envsioned. Am I right?

[BuffaloGuy]

I did some more searching and found a good link. Go here: http://www.jimsperformance.com/intercool.html This page has the stats about how effecient liquid to air intercoolers are.

Panhead: Do you have a seperate cooling system for yours or do you run from the radiator under your truck to the intercooler then to the main radiator?

More great links:
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0084&P=1

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0090

[ 09-29-2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: The Buffalo Guy ]

[pannhead]

the system is completely seperate from the engine..its a spearco 2-230 (big,very close fit)mounted on top of engine where "turbo power" used to be,turbo outlet turned to about 7 o'clock,charge pipe(2.5" mandrel bend) from turbo to intercooler is water sleeved with 4" so water circultes around it also,air horn is turned 180 degrees(had to relocate fuel filter),mounted in front there are two 16x8x2 heat exchangers (one where the trans & oil coolers used to be) and one mounted where splash guard was),then the water goes back to an aluminum howe radiator 16x27x2 mounted at an angle with scoop and duel flex-o-lite fans..water is circulated by two remote mount electric meziere water pumps..water hoses are 1.5" except in engine area where it is 3/4",next to the intercooler is an aluminum resevior with rad cap...have 200 amp alt and duel yellow-top batt to power all this stuff...water capacity is about 9.5 gallons....egt stays about ambient no matter what speed i'm going....well, that's the meat & potatoes,i'll spare everybody all the gory details ;)

[john8662]

Hey pannhead, could you possibly post a pic of the intercooler setup on your rig, just from the description I am interested to see what it all looks like under the hood!!

Thanks

John

[pannhead]

last week my computer did a DP and i lost just about everything :mad: ..then my camara met with my toddler again!!!! :( ...i'll get my crap together and will have new pics in a couple weeks

[BuffaloGuy]

Well the more I rsearch this the more it looks like the right path for me is to go with an air to air system. I talked to a guy at spearco and he said that putting a fan on an intercooler should work ok. Better than their kit at lower speeds and maybe not quite as good at higher speeds. Of course, he was trying to sell me a kit!

Looks like a cummins I/C will fit under the truck in front of the fuel tank. Ford is too big. Match that up with 2 big electric fans. Then some gaurds and plumb it in.

I think the hard part will be building a mounting bracket and the shields. I want a setup that will fold down so I can hose it off occasionally.

I'll take some pics when I can get to this.

[john8662]

thanks for the responce pannhead, understand the comp problems I deal with em day to day in the job I am in.. I'll watch the forum for updated pics, thanks!

[rustypig]

Having built a homebrew IC system on my Sub, I'd have to say that pannheads system is very cool (pun not intended) and deserves some serious kudos. I would venture to guess it's got some serious time involved and a group more than the $400 greenbacks TBG was hoping to stick to (then again, when do we ever come in on budget with these 6.5's). I'm with HowieE on this one though...I think you'd be picking up a lot of unwanted heat in that location. The truely best place is somewhere up front where cool FORCED air is available. It's unfortunate that our GM front ends are so small in frontal grill area.

[StephenA]

I was toying with an electronic approach. Once, we had a industrial computer rack we designed to analyse CD & DVDs that was failing due to extremely high temps, so we cooled it way down with electronic heat pump chips. Took no space & very few amps... Has anybody built one of these as an intercooler...

[StephenA]

If anyone knows approximately how many BTUs & what temps we're dealing with here, I could ascertain if an electronic heat pump setup would be feasable, & if so, we could build one. It would be a nice product, attaching directly to the intake with only 12v needed to run...

[BuffaloGuy]

StephanA, can you explain what this device is? Sounds interesting. The simpler the better!

OK guys, I will not be so hard headed. Since several of you think it may be too hot in my proposed location I will do a test.

I have one of those remote digital thermometer deals. I'll mount the sensor in the proposed loctaion on my next big haul which is Tuesday pm. I have to pull 15,500 lbs about 200 miles. This should be a good test. I'll give a report next week
The Buffalo Guy

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

StephenA: I'd start here (http://www.melcor.com) . My experience with Peltier thermoelectric coolers is admittedly limited & old, but they are/were very inefficient: lots of amps for a little cooling. Mostly they have been used where a small amount of cooling that isn't very efficient is needed, such as those coolers that plug into your cig lighter socket.

Good luck - please keep us posted. I'd love to be wrong about this.

Blessings!

Brian Johnson, #5044

'82 6.2 1500 4X4 1/2T pickup, 4spd man w/ OD, bone stock, 335K+, "In Rust We Trust"
'89 6.2 4X4 1/2T pickup, bone stock, 146K+
'95 6.5TD 2500 4X4 heavy 3/4T pickup, Gear Vendors Aux. OD, 184K +
'95 6.5TD 1500 4X4 3/4T Suburban, Kennedy exhaust, 200K +

[StephenA]

Thanks Brian- I'm familiar with those pumps. The heat we're trying to remove may be way out of league for this application. Just need some idea of volume & temps. What temps do current intercoolers achieve in the compressed intake? Anybody know?

[Peter J. Bierman]

To give you an idea of how hot the airtemps get,
on my engine when idling the pipe from the turbo to the intercoolers is hand warm being like 30 deg.celcius and from the intercooler to manifols feels like a cold beer.
After a hard run the hot pipe can't be touched, the cool pipe is warm but not hot.
I will meassure temps some day and let you know.

Peter

[pannhead]

the electric intercooler approach (peltier) is a cool concept but as stated above, way too many amps would be required...maybe someone has a really big hydrogen fuel-cell laying around..... :D ..not too off base though...i thought i saw some-one on e-bay selling an "electric intercooler" for about $900 IIRC...just dont think the technology is there yet

[StephenA]

Yep- that amount of heat would be several orders of magnitude out of the heat pump league... oh well. smile.gif

[jeffreydmet]

My training is mechanical engineering and I've been wanting to add an intercooler too. I did some calculations based on 12 psi boost, 80 deg ambient air, 2400 engine rpm, and cooling the air to 100 deg F after compression. I assumed a 90% compressor efficiency(don't know what reality is).

Anyway if I did my math right I come up with about 52000 BTU per hr to get rid of. That's about like 2 big window air conditioners. This seems kind of high but I can't find a hole in my calculations.

[whatnot]

I haven't looked lately but I seem to recall the scan tool showing around 250 - 300

[StephenA]

That's quite a few BTU's. Maybe we can get the specs off of an OEM or after market unit & get some idea of range.

[jeffreydmet]

Whatnot's temperatures sound reasonable since some engines use the engine cooling water for the intercooler. The air temp would have to be above the engine temp to do any good.

What the 250 deg air tells me is that the turbo compressor is more like 60% efficient which seems more reasonable than 90%. Also the BTU's would be more like 85,000 BTU's per hour.

[BuffaloGuy]

Well I just got back from the haul with the temp gauge installed under the cab just in front of the fuel tank. (under the drivers seat, outside the cab, inside the frame rail)

HowieE - You were right. My thermometer max's out at 118F and while pulling a load it would exceed this pretty easily. Sure surprised me. Kudo's. Dang I hate to eat crow.

Conclusion:
Air temps are much too hot to install an intercooler in this location. Back to the drawing board!

Gotta be a cheaper way to get an intercooler!

[GMCfourX4]

I should know by this weekend if I can squeeze a Cummins intercooler in front of the radiator by installing the Flex-A-Lite dual electric fans and re-working the radiator brackets to move it back towards the engine a couple inches (I should have a lot more room in there with the clutch fan and mega-shroud out fo the way.) I measured the distance between the inlet/outlet tubes on the Cummins intercooler at JUST a little wider than my 41"? radiator. It should be interesting.... WIsh me luck :D

-Chris

[BuffaloGuy]

I'd do better than wish you luck if I could. I'd come help! Let us know how it goes.

A thought I had about your project: Would it fit if the plastic grill was out of the way? If so, perhaps it could be cut out and replaced with a custom something that would allow room for the IC? These grills are lousy anyway.

Thinking about the effect to the cooling capacity of the already undersized radiator: Do you think that by putting the IC in front it will cause cooling problems?

I have often wondered this. The other side of the debate is that it shouldn't since the heat that is being removed by the IC is heat that would be in the motor anyway. So no new heat is generated. Got any thoughts on this?

[GMCfourX4]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not trying to start any trouble, but I don't think our radiators are undersized or under-capacity. I think a large number of the cooling problems people experience are due to radiators that are clogged, or getting insufficient airflow. This is just my opinion. I haven't towed anything over probably 7-8K lbs with my truck, but I've never had ANY issues with cooling. I towed a car/trailer in the summer through the mountains of PA with a Lund Screen Front on, and with the AC running, and I don't even think my fan engaged while I was going at any speed over 25mph. At any rate, I am going to make sure the area in the grill is completely clear of leaves, bugs, dirt, etc...anything that could block airflow, and look inside my radiator to make sure everything is completely clean in there. If all is well, I'm just gonna do my best to get everything together and working, and mebbe I'll prove myself wrong :D I'll certainly letcha know how it works, and I'll try to get some pictures taken (assuming I make it work ;) ) I got the electric fans yesterday, and I've had the Cummins intercooler for a while. My plan is to get the intercooler mounted and the cooling system flushed/filled this weekend, and hopefully later in the week get all of the tubing and stuff I need to get the intercooler connected.

-Chris

[BuffaloGuy]

No offense taken. If we don't talk frankly then we don't learn.

As per your experience of not overheating, I can understand your opinion. My truck will not over heat pulling 5-8K either. However, my flatbed trailer weights 5K EMPTY. Loaded, the curb weight of it can be 27K. The motor can do the job but the cooling is the limiting factor. Yes, it's overloaded but it's a work truck.

I agree that radiator maintenance is a BIG factor. I need to rod mine again and put new fluid in. But I've seen trucks and tractors of various makes do just fine with radiators pretty plugged because they were designed with extra cooling capacity. Me thinks the 6.5 was engineered too close.

Looking forward to your report!

[tom.mcinerney]

RustyP, and all,
"It's unfortunate that our GM front ends are so small in frontal grill area."
Agreed. I think this results from engineering to decrease aero drag, enabling good mpg .

[GMCfourX4]

Well.... after a messy weekend, I have made some progress, although not enough :D (I am not enjoying driving around in a '90 Jimmy w/no radio and an un-comfy seat...) I flushed the cooling system with just water (multiple times, until I got a 5-gallon bucket of completely clear water out), then I took off the shroud, fan, radiator, etc. After a good bit of just looking around and checking to see how things would fit, I decided there was no way in hell to put the thing in the way Dodge intended, so I started determining how I could get it to fit up-side down. The inlet/outlet were way too big and stuck out too far for them to be on the bottom, b/c the wheelwells were in the way (along with windshield washer reservoir, etc...) Soooo... I made some measurements, and took a Sawzall to 1.5" of each side of the area the radiator sits in, to make clearance. I also had to use and angle grinder and air-cutoff tool to remove all the factory Dodge mounts from the intercooler. I also ground off the ribs on the end-tanks for a little extra clearance. I now have enough space behind the grill to fit the intercooler. The top of the intercooler is sitting about level with the top of the core support, and the radiator fits between the inlet/outlet, almost at its original height, just 2.5" or so closer to the engine. In order to make clearance for the Flex-A-Lite fans, I took about 3/8" off of the water pump shaft, where the fan used to sit, and snipped the studs short. I have to weld in a couple of perches for the bottom of the intercooler, and make a couple minor modifications to the bottom of the radiator support so I can move the little rubber "seats" out to support the radiator in its new location. The really fun part will be getting the batteries re-mounted out of the way (oh yeah, they were in the way of the inlet/outlet pipes) and creating a new air-filter box (hopefully with improved cold-airflow). I am also going to filter the CDR and replace the upper intake manifold. Its a sizeable project, but I think it should work nicely when its done. I'm actually annoyed that I have to go to ALCS Game 5 b/c I won't get to work on my truck tonight! (well, OK.... maybe not :D but I do want to get it done) I'll try to take some pics of the current horror-show and get them posted somewhere for anyone who's interested. BTW, has anyone ever put a Cummins intercooler into one of these trucks before???

-Chris

[StephenA]

Wow Chris- that's a lot of good work! Can't wait to know how it runs. Say, how does an intercooler compare to a mister?

[GMCfourX4]

Stephen;
I can't wait either! :D I won't get into the reason I haven't had time to work on my truck all week (damn Grady Little....) BUT, I hope to have most/all of it done this weekend. I can't say how it compares to water injection. I've basically gotten the core support ready to put the intercooler in, after a lot of cutting/grinding. I also had to take some of the water pump shaft off with a whizzer (air-cutoff wheel). After grinding the ribs and Dodge mounts off of the intercooler, I have enough clearance to fit intercooler, radiator, and electric fans between the core support and the water pump. Tonight I will hopefully get everything mounted, so I can get my design firmed up for the airbox and battery mounts (all with an eye for how I'm going to route the intercooler plumbing.) Should be a fun weekend! :D

-Chris

[pannhead]

that is a PROJECT :eek: :D

[StephenA]

Good luck on this weekend, Chris, and let us all know how it goes. I'm interested in knowing how this effects your engine coolant temp. Seems to me that heat taken out on the intake might balance out with heat developing in the engine & going to the radiator, so your mounting might not add heat like running the A/C does. Verdict?

[pannhead]

i think this install is awesome :D i hope i have this right,you're replacing the fan and fan clutch w/the flex-o-lite duel fans?...my only concern is the use of electric fans,the 5500 cfm rating of these fans is at zero static meaning this rating is if nothing is in the way...a intercooler,condensor,and radiator is alot of static :eek: ..i hope these fans can suck thru all that...i've always wanted to use these fans but have always backed off because of the expense..has anyone else had any experience with these fans?... sooooooo, your project will be very interesting to me and hope to bring this post back next summer for your verdict on their cooling performance...keep us posted smile.gif