one peice installed/crossmember gone ! [Archive]

KenZ

02-20-2002, 20:47

Bob,

Doesn't sound good, if indeed it was cut out. Maybe you can do a search. There was quite a bit of discussion on this a while back--even some pictures and copies of the step by step instructions they were to follow. I think one person even got a new truck because this happened. They do have to grind off some of the metal brackets, but not cut out the whole cross member. I can't see that the bulletin would have changed. Got a camera that you can post a picture?

Good luck. I would look into it right away.

Ken

csimo

02-20-2002, 21:07

If they cut out the entire cross member you're driving an unsafe vehicle. The frame is hydroformed and cannot be welded back properly.

The only solution is a new vehicle, or a very major frame change. The frame change will likely exceed the value of the truck.

Do not accept anything less than a new frame or a new truck. Your life may depend on it.

BigBob

02-20-2002, 21:15

When I say cut out, I mean it appears that they used a cut off wheel and cut about 15 inchs out of the centre of the member. Enough of the member was left on the left side, to support the fuel cooler
I wish I had a camera, when I did a search I found where Stevem had his cut out, and they replaced his truck, his pictures from that post looks just like mine does now.
Trust me, I am going to look into it right away. Thanks for your reply, would like to hear more about possible remidies.( I hate bandages)

------------------
Bob
2001 2500HD 4x4 CC/SB LT Duramax/Allison Summit White

mcfly

02-20-2002, 21:22

Brought a few topics up for you to have a look at.

Something to think about: Half of all Doctors finished in the lower half of their class. At least you did not go to the doctor to have a hernia fixed, they might have cut your balls off

------------------
2002 4X4 Chevy 3500 LS Ext Cab Dmax/Allison
Only getting 15 MPG, hoping it will get better.

[This message has been edited by mcfly (edited 02-20-2002).]

hoot

02-20-2002, 21:23

I don't mean to scare you but you have a big problem if in fact they cut an entire section of the tubular crossmember out. Another fellow had his whole truck replaced for that reason.

Precendent has been set.

I believe the all important posts about the issue are gone.

------------------
Mike DP Member #2429
2001 2500HD GMC Duramax/Allison Summit White CC/SB Loaded
Amsoil Air Filter, Straight Piped PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/exhaust/jvn03.jpg)
PS2K Propane, 22 Gal. LP Tank PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/propane/bigtank1.jpg)
Allison Deep Pan, Transynd Syn ATF PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/allison/)
SPA DG-111 Boost/EGT PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/egt/), Nordskog Fuel Level, High Idle Switch PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/gauges/pillar_w_idle.jpg)
VentShades, Husky Mudflaps, 255/85-R16 Dunlop Radial Rover RV's PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/gmc2.jpg)
Mag-Hytek Rear Dif Cover PIC (http://www.wjsperformance.com/mag-hytec/differential_covers.htm)
Kennedy Headlight Booster Kit ALL TRUCK PICTURES CLICK HERE (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc)
1994 K1500 Blazer 350 Loaded, Flowmaster duals

[This message has been edited by hoot (edited 02-20-2002).]

runninlate

02-20-2002, 22:18

Bob,
Not having a 2500 myself I`m curious where the carrier bearing was located for the two piece. Try to lay eyes on a 2500 from the factory with a single driveline and see if that particular crossmember exsists, either fore or aft of where yours was/is. If that crossmember was put there solely to hang a carrier bearing and a fuel cooler, which I doubt, you`ll be ok. That`s a mighty big if.
Whether a whole section or a full cut the width of a Sawzall blade, the integrity of the entire chassis has been jeopardized.

------------------
02 GMC D/A 3500 LT CC 4X4
98 Peterbilt 379 ...550 Cat
97 Ford F350 4X4 CC PSD
87 Chevy 1/2 ton 4X4 /w a Tom Edwards small block that will smoke any of the above 3

stevem

02-20-2002, 22:23

I CAN'T BELEIVE THESE FRAMES ARE STILL BEING BUTCHERED BY JACKA$$ MECHANICS!!!!

#1 Insist they replace your truck with a new one at no extra cost to you. Be calm and very stubborn. If the dealer does agree to replace the truck they will try to get some money from you because they will claim you had use of the truck. BULL$HIT,they put you in this situation, they have to make it right.

#2 Tell the dealer you need a comparable loaner truck RIGHT NOW because you do not feel safe driving a truck with an integral part of the frame missing. A loaner vehicle will cost the dealer many $$$$$. This will get the ball rolling. Dealer does not want to pay for a loaner for who knows how long while the problem is pending.

#3 Don't even bother with GM customer service, they were no help at all.

Give me your e-mail so I can send you the letter that I sent to the dealer.

Hang in there, Steve

www.picturetrail.com/stevem (http://www.picturetrail.com/stevem)

NutNbutGMC

02-20-2002, 22:26

I had mine done via the Service Bulletin. I had initially questioned the procedure, as well, just as yourself. Additionally I called another Service Manager (other than the one doing my work) and the second Service Manager assured me that the procedure of cutting the X-member (leaving stubs) is absolutely the correct procedure. In fact, they had done six upgrade installs at the time I had called. I then told the local Service Manager to proceed with what I had initially questioned. What you had done is the correct procedure, according to the Bulletin.
Just reporting the facts, fair and balanced. You decide. http://forum.62-65-dieselpage.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
------------------
2k2 2500HD Crew-Short-D/A, 2-axle drive.
I drive it, like I stole it.
MPG.....What's that?
KaydenCo (http://www.kaydenco.com)

[This message has been edited by NutNbutGMC (edited 02-20-2002).]

BigBob

02-21-2002, 04:56

Stevem: my email address is
rcobby@sympatico.ca

Last night I went two local dealers to look at 2002 models with the one peice driveshafts and the crossmembers are still there, they appear to be the same as mine, except for no hanger bearing. The original service bulliten I seen said clearly do not cut the crossmember . Thanks again for everybodies help.

DmaxMaverick

02-21-2002, 05:06

The instructions with the bulletin are very detailed. The removal or cutting into the cross member is not part of it. It clearly states to remove the bearing and the carrier assembly, clean the area with a grinder, and paint the crossmember where the grinding had been done. Simple, huh? Maybe not to some. The crossmember the bearing is mounted to is the same crossmember on other trucks. There is no "special" crossmember just for the carrier bearing.

Definately demand a new truck. Yours is now damaged beyond reasonable repair for an 'new' vehicle. Take Stevem's advice and make them do right by you, as it is they that have taken your otherwise new truck from you. Don't let them talk you into a new frame, either. It will never be the same. Good luck!

------------------
2001 GMC 2500HD SLT 4X4 E/C SB loaded -D/A- Indigo Blue - 285/75/16 Bridgestone Dueller M/T's on 16 X 8 Centerline Comet III's - Amsoiled bumper to bumper - Delivered November 2000

1985 K Blazer 6.2L N/A 500K+ original miles on Engine/Tranny (2 transfer cases, 1 pump, and a few rear ends)
Synthetic Oil!!

stretch

02-21-2002, 05:20

NutNbutGMC
Pay attension here, it seems like your in the same boat with BigBob. If I understood your post correctly, you are driving an unsafe and structurally violated vehicle...
Don't believe what your service manager said, Most of those idiots aren't even mechanics, just service writers with a better job title. Sorry if I am offending anybody.

NickLeinonen

02-21-2002, 05:52

is there a link to where this service bulltin is posted on the web. i would like to print out a copy and take to the GM boys at my school [centennial college ashtonbee] and see what their take on it is. if they say that cutting off the x-member is a real bad 'f' up, and it should just be the bearing part, maybe we can get some higher importance people involved in this [and go above the dealers..]and perhaps get an revised service bulltin warning the mechanics to not mangle the frame with the sawzall.

------------------
nick

97 tahoe 2dr 6.5TD 4" straight piped. 33" goodyear summers. 31" cooper weathermaster winters.

battmain

02-21-2002, 06:25

You know...it is interesting. On my truck, they did NOT cut out the carrier bearing support and mangled a new driveshaft, which in turn mangled the transmission. How useless can these certified techs be? (sigh)

Big Bob, don't back down, be calm and polite. You will get a new truck at their expense!

Brian

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2001 Torreador Red 2500HD GMC Sierra Ext Cab Longbed. 6.0L 4x4. Deep Tinted Glass with Defogger. Weathertech Ventvisors. 8" Bazooka waiting to be installed.

BigBob

02-21-2002, 16:26

Just returned from the dealer, left a message last night that I would be in today at 4 and they were waiting for me. The service writer right away said they had reviewed the service bulliten,(mechanic and him) and they did not do the repair excatly as the bulletin showed and they were going to make it right . He indicated that he had disscussed the concern with his body people and they could weld the peice back in.

I stayed quite cool and said that at this point that is not a acceptable repair and my purpose today was only to too see if they were prepared to ammit wrong doing, and yes they did . I went to great lenghts to explain my concerns with the integerty of the frame ,and we needed to consult experts before proceeding and I would be back to the at alater date.

------------------
Bob
2001 2500HD 4x4 CC/SB LT Duramax/Allison Summit White

Kennedy

02-21-2002, 16:59

The one that got axed up thisaway was repurchased and repaired, then resold.

I have the email addy of the owner and will send him a link to this topic!

------------------
John Kennedy
www.kennedydiesel.com (http://www.kennedydiesel.com)
John@kennedydiesel.com
2002 Chev. K2500HD Dmax/Allison Crew Cab Long Bed Pewter/Tan LT Driving it!!!
1996 GMC K2500HD 6.5TD Ex.Cab LWB 260+ Rw H.P.
1984 K30 SRW 6.2NA Headers and custom 2 into 1 exhaust FOR SALE
'01 FXDWG Black/Chrome Yellow (2 into 1 Thunderheader <naturally>) (100+ RwHP)
"If I had to explain, you wouldn't understand"

mackin

02-21-2002, 17:00

Big Bob
Good luck with your new truck!!!!
You should be driving a 2002 real soon.
Take no SUBSTITUTIONS !!!!!
Glad I never had to deal with this. I got the 1 piece alum. MONSTER !!!!
MAC

------------------
2001 CHEVROLET
BIG DUALLY D/A LT
BLACK EXT. GRAPHITE LEATHER
INT. AMSOIL BUMPER TO BUMPER
2001 MONTE CARLO SS

pics (http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?username=mackin)

NutNbutGMC

02-21-2002, 17:38

NutNbutGMC
Pay attension here, it seems like your in the same boat with BigBob. If I understood your post correctly, you are driving an unsafe and structurally violated vehicle...
I'm hoping Bob will come clean as to the results of his findings. As well, I'd like to look at the Service Bulletin, one more time. I'll pursue as necessary, however, I hate to give up my stereo. NOT!!

------------------
2k2 2500HD Crew-Short-D/A, 2-axle drive.
I drive it, like I stole it.
MPG.....What's that?
KaydenCo (http://www.kaydenco.com)

hoot

02-21-2002, 20:14

The original service bulletin 01-04-17-001(which I have a copy of) has a diagram that showed the crossmember and two places that look like cuts in the crossmember. I think that original diagram was a big boo-boo by whoever it was that drew it.

It says to remove the center bearing support bracket from the kick-up crossmember using a cutoff wheel. I think that part is good. The problem is there is a diagram under that statement that looks like two cuts through the crossmember with the label (1) pointing to those cuts.

I don't want to post the bulletin for fear someone might take it as the way to do it. There is a supplement (01-04-17-001A July 2001)that I think clears up exactly where to cut. I do not have that one.

------------------
Mike DP Member #2429
2001 2500HD GMC Duramax/Allison Summit White CC/SB Loaded
Amsoil Air Filter, Straight Piped PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/exhaust/jvn03.jpg)
PS2K Propane, 22 Gal. LP Tank PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/propane/bigtank1.jpg)
Allison Deep Pan, Transynd Syn ATF PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/allison/)
SPA DG-111 Boost/EGT PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/egt/), Nordskog Fuel Level, High Idle Switch PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/gauges/pillar_w_idle.jpg)
VentShades, Husky Mudflaps, 255/85-R16 Dunlop Radial Rover RV's PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/gmc2.jpg)
Mag-Hytek Rear Dif Cover PIC (http://www.wjsperformance.com/mag-hytec/differential_covers.htm)
Kennedy Headlight Booster Kit ALL TRUCK PICTURES CLICK HERE (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc)
1994 K1500 Blazer 350 Loaded, Flowmaster duals

[This message has been edited by hoot (edited 02-21-2002).]

NutNbutGMC

02-21-2002, 20:28

Hoot, would ya' shoot it to me in an e? crb862@aol.com

I found reference to this number - 01-04-17-004

------------------
2k2 2500HD Crew-Short-D/A, 2-axle drive.
I drive it, like I stole it.
MPG.....What's that?
KaydenCo (http://www.kaydenco.com)

hoot

02-21-2002, 21:04

NutNbutGMC,

Check your mail.

Mike

stevem

02-21-2002, 21:15

Big Bob.

You have mail.

Steve.

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2001 CHEVY/2500HD/4X4/ XCAB/LONGBED/DURAMAX / ALLISON/MED CHARCOAL/GRAY LEATHER/LT WITH ALL OPTIONS/CENTERLINE RATTLERS/BFG-AT-KO-285-75-16.

SGJ

02-22-2002, 15:26

Big Bob ,
I live down by Ridgetown ,not a long ways from you . First , what dealer are you dealing with . Second , my brother-in-law owns Fordham Motors in Rodney ,and if you would like some contact names for Area Service Reps or anyone else please e-mail me and I will try to help out . I am sure you would like to resolve this ASAP .
Good Luck
My e-mail is sdilliot@ciaccess.com

------------------
2002 Chevy 3500 , CC , Pewter, 4x4 ,D/A ,TechTube Stainless Steel Wheel to Wheel Step Bars , Husky Flaps ,A.R.E. Z Series Cap ,K&N Air Filter ,PIAA Headlights ,working on Spa DG-211 gauge

battmain

02-22-2002, 15:55

It says to remove the center bearing support bracket from the kick-up crossmember using a cutoff wheel. I think that part is good. The problem is there is a diagram under that statement that looks like two cuts through the crossmember with the label (1) pointing to those cuts.

Doesn't the paragraph also say "Do not damage the crossmember?" (Or something to that effect?)

Brian

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2001 Torreador Red 2500HD GMC Sierra Ext Cab Longbed. 6.0L 4x4. Deep Tinted Glass with Defogger. Weathertech Ventvisors. 8" Bazooka waiting to be installed.

BigBob

02-22-2002, 21:01

Stevem, NutNbutGMC, SGJ, I will attempt to email all three of you before the weekend is over, Your input is greatly appreciated.

Went to local Bodyshop for a professional opinon on frame reconstruction. They felt the intigerty of the frame was completely jeopordized , and any repair could not be garrantied as the original construction and they recommended a complete frame replacement, and with out spending alot of time, quoted a book rate for frame and labour around $8500 , this shop felt I should insist on it at the least, and it was a project they did not want.

------------------
Bob
2001 2500HD 4x4 CC/SB LT Duramax/Allison Summit White

NutNbutGMC

02-22-2002, 22:21

Thanks B.B., I'll await your response and go from there. I'm on a mission if this turns out to be an issue.
(crb862@aol.com)

------------------
2k2 2500HD Crew-Short-D/A, 2-axle drive.
I drive it, like I stole it.
MPG.....What's that?
KaydenCo (http://www.kaydenco.com)

[This message has been edited by NutNbutGMC (edited 02-22-2002).]

sonofagun

02-22-2002, 22:33

For anyone who lives with this problem by allowing the crossmember to be welded back together, remember one thing: Good welding is often stonger than the original metal. The cross member isn't load bearing it's torsional. Do one thing: Get a written warranty from the dealer that guarantees any and all repairs necessary because of the repair failing... for as long as you own the truck. Get the dealer to get a GM signoff on the extended warranty. I'd push for the replacement for as long as you can before going the above route.

Bob

------------------
2001 GMC 2500HD D/A, CC/SB,Olympic White, Manik SS brush guard and nerfs, Hella driving lamps, Velvet rides, HD Air Lifts and Compressor,
Snugtop cover, Linex, Yakima rails on cover (mt. bikes), Amsoil 2 stage airfilter. Pioneer XM Radio. ECM upgrades. One piece driveshaft.Mag-Hytec diff. cover,
43 gal across the bed aux.tank (American Tank), Lucerix pwr/heated mirrors, Street Pilot III GPS.
--------
1966 Chevelle convertible 396 4SPD (restored)
--------------
Working on EGT/Boost guage,4" exhaust, Jason's steering wheel audio controls,Homelink transmitter and lighted visors with sun shades.
Wish list: Whatever MDRAG does!
GOD BLESS AMERICA and those who walk in harms
way to protect us all!!

SON OF A GUN'S VEHICLES (http://www.PictureTrail.com/gallery/view?username=sonofagun)

Kennedy

02-22-2002, 22:35

I think it is more a matter of principle than structural integrity. I thought the hydroformed frame was supposed to allow a single section (of 3 total?) to be replaced???

Back to the principle thing. I'm sure it could be welded back in and would suffer no compromise in strength or function. It's just the pain of knowing someone butchered your "baby"...

------------------
John Kennedy
www.kennedydiesel.com (http://www.kennedydiesel.com)
John@kennedydiesel.com
2002 Chev. K2500HD Dmax/Allison Crew Cab Long Bed Pewter/Tan LT Driving it!!!
1996 GMC K2500HD 6.5TD Ex.Cab LWB 260+ Rw H.P.
1984 K30 SRW 6.2NA Headers and custom 2 into 1 exhaust FOR SALE
'01 FXDWG Black/Chrome Yellow (2 into 1 Thunderheader <naturally>) (100+ RwHP)
"If I had to explain, you wouldn't understand"

NoSparkPlugs

02-22-2002, 23:47

This is pretty interesting stuff. I saw some photos on another page of a butcher job on this cross member and now having read this entire thread, I realize how it happened and why it happened.

As a thought, why not try to turn this into an opportunity instead? I like the idea of pushing for an extended warranty on the truck and I'll bet that the dealer will do it. That is, they will give you a bumper to bumper warranty for 7 years/100,000 miles and repair the cross member at the very least and maybe even a longer warranty underwritten by GM. I don't think that they don't want any trouble on this screw up and I'll bet they will go out of their way to make it right for you. I'll bet you can negotiate a sweetheart deal if you can see your way clear to accepting a repair or replacement cross member. It would seem that at the least you'd need to have the frame shop confirm that the repair is correct and that the frame is properly aligned.

I thought that I read that the cross member hit the driveshaft on the crew cabs and this is why it is removed when the single driveshaft replaces the split driveshaft on this warranty repair.

It's amazing that a small mis communication can result so catastrophically!

Don't forget that you can repair a truck that is pretty badly damaged in a crash so tweaking a crossmember after it's replaced should not be a big deal with the right people on it.

Pretty amazing!

[This message has been edited by NoSparkPlugs (edited 02-22-2002).]

BigBob

02-26-2002, 19:11

Kennedy , your points are wwell taken, you said that the frame was hydroformed and that 1 of the three could be replaced, where would a person find the specication for the replacement of such a member . Two of the bodyshops I spoke to, one specializinf in big truck collision repair said they would not attemp to weld to the frame rails. The other just like the dealer said no problem, sure we can fix it , but no we couldn't warranty it, and it would be OK as long as I didn,t beat on it.

Kennedy

02-26-2002, 19:33

Big Bob,

Dont take it as gospel, but I THOUGHT this is what I heard.

Anyone else hear anything about replacing a section of frame???

I've been wrong before...

BTW, I like the extended warranty suggestion!

BigBob

02-26-2002, 19:33

Today I return to the dealer. Asked for the service department manager, and as soon as I introduced my self he went in to auto self defence and claim that they could reconstruct anything to spec and felt that my truck was not a problem. When asked if he had direction from the company (engineeering)on how to proceeded,he remarked that they knew what they were doing and did not need it. I clearly stated that I did not fell comfortable with that and that I would like to see instructions form GM for the repair and get assurance from GM that my frame intigiry was not comprmised , and he replied, it would not happen, the best I would get would be a letter form the dealership. At that point I said that ends our conversation, and I would be addressing my concerns with the owner of the dealership and a GM repsentative. I then return to the front desk and request a appointment with the owner and a repsentive of GM. and I was told she would try to arrange within a week and would call with a time.

mackin

02-26-2002, 19:58

Big Bob,
Do not let them get away with it. It is there mistake. No way no how is a fix on a brand new truck is get out the torches or sawz-all or what ever fix it and compromise vehicle strength. I have seen earlier threads on this subject way back. Keep up the pressure you'll get your results.
Best of LUCK
MAC

hoot

03-03-2002, 06:33

Here is the latest TSB.....

Launch Shudder on Acceleration (Install New One-Piece Propeller Shaft) #01-04-17-001B

1999-2002 Chevrolet and GMC K2500/3500 Extended Cab Long Box and Crew Cab Short Box Pickup Models
With Automatic Transmission

This bulletin is being revised to add model information, remove procedure steps and change parts information. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 01-04-17-001A (Section 04 -- Driveline Axle).

Condition
Some customers may comment on a vibration during acceleration from 0-40 km/h (0-25 mph). This may also be referred to as launch shudder. This condition may be more noticeable when the vehicle is carrying cargo or is used for towing.

Correction
A new propeller shaft is available for service to correct this condition. This new propeller shaft is a one-piece design and will replace the current two-piece design.

Install a new one-piece propeller shaft on affected vehicles. Refer to the service procedure and the parts information listed below. Match the affected vehicle with the appropriate propeller shaft. Refer to the usage information below. This fix does not apply to the Chassis/Crew Cab Models (K35943).

Remove the propeller shaft assembly and the center bearing. Refer to the Propeller Shaft - Two Piece procedure in the Propeller Shaft sub-section of SI2000. For this bulletin, it is not necessary to mark the components for re-assembly.

Important
The center bearing support bracket (1) must be removed in order to provide enough clearance for installation of the one-piece propeller shaft. Avoid damaging the crossmember during removal of the center bracket. For proper clearance, no more than 13 mm (

Plasticfantastic

03-03-2002, 07:59

,he remarked that they knew what they were doing and did not need it.

Yeah, that's how BB got in this spot. They sure know what they're doing.
At first I would be looking for an easy and fair resolution.... then they would try to bulldoze me like they are Bob and I would resort to pulling my rear up on my shoulders and proceeding in that fashion. Sure hope you are in a position where you can afford to hold your ground, Bob. If the dealer is gonna be ugly (and they are) hope you can stick it out.

acidburn

03-03-2002, 08:19

Get ahold of the GM zone office for your region. I am sure some GM guys in here will jump on this.
As has been stated, it may be a searious safety issue, put things in writing, you will most likely get searious action fast.
Dont screw around with the dealer.

NutNbutGMC

03-03-2002, 09:14

Thanks Hoot. Good info. that is helpful.

mackin

03-03-2002, 12:13

We haven't heard from BB in a while. You don't think that maybe.......no It
just can't be.......he wouldn't.....sneak back into the dealer at night..........and get his cut off-out parts......and stand out in front of the stealers day and night and show the world what those butchers DID TO HIS BABY.............I would!!!!!!!
MAC

NutNbutGMC

03-03-2002, 12:33

I have heard from BB via e-mail. He is pursuing the situation of his dilemma at the regional level, as of Saturday. He wants to keep this at minimal exposure until it is resolved (for obvious reasons). We have exchanged information, as I am in the same predicament. When it's all said and done, I'm sure Bob will elaborate more. I'll start my (personal) litigation of pursuit on Monday. As for him not being around to hang out here, with you Diesel Heads? I'm not sure what he's got going on. Have a great week.

[ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: NutNbutGMC ]

Zapper

03-07-2002, 16:15

Hello all, I'm a new member and fairly new Dmax/Allison owner, six months and all is well. Mine is a crew cab short bed and falls in this sevice bulletin. I have not experienced this shutter at launch. Is this somthing I should have serviced regardless or should I wait until I have a problem or for a better solution, maybe?

sonofagun

03-07-2002, 17:36

Zapper,

If you aren't hauling heavy loads and aren't experiencing the launch shudder it isn't a big problem to have a 2 piece drive shaft. The one piece has fewer moving parts, etc, and in the long run is a better system. If you have it done be sure to tell the dealer to NOT CUT THE CROSSMEMBER. Ask to talk to the one who is going to do the work and tell him too.

Goog luck,
Bob

GMC-2002-Dmax

03-12-2002, 19:19

I had to weigh in on this one too.

I just spent 10 minutes under my truck looking and it would appear to me that the tubular crossmember is welded solidly on both sides.

My truck is an 02 built last week of January. It has a HUGE one piece rear driveshaft with what appears to be a balancing disk at the rear end.

Having looked closely at the construction of the frame ( welds ) I do not see how a person can weld with the same expertise as the machine at the factory did. I know people can weld but this is the foundation of your truck.

I would seriously question the job they did and I think that you should demand the factory bullitens for the upfit of the 1 piece shaft.

Good luck smile.gif

sonofagun

03-13-2002, 14:22

GMC,

The way to weld the cut cross member would be as follows:

The cut (the one they shouldn't do) is generally at the top of the crossmember (mabye 6"-10" across). You (owner of messed up truck) should contact a metal fabrication shop and inquire if they do bending of high strength steel tubing. Take the truck to the fab shop and have them make up a piece of same style steel to fit. Have them clean up the (dealer hack job) cut ends so the new piece is an exact fit. Mig weld it in place. The damaged area is no where near the frame. Since the cross member is torsional and not structural the weld will be just fine. The dealer should pay for all of this work but you should set it up. You should also insist that the dealer give you a lifetime warranty on the weld and any damage that might occur to your truck should the weld come lose and damage result.

If you can get a new truck out of the so much the better but you will likely pay for usage, etc. not to mention the hastle you'll go through. This fix will work and if done by a good shop will hardly show after being done.

My 2C

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: son of a gun ]

NutNbutGMC

03-13-2002, 18:22

^.......Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Welding engineer is asking;
1) What is the required weld joint configuration that would meet the intended design structural purpose? Is it a V-groove, a partial penetration groove, a full penetration groove or a butt joint?
2) Does the metal require a pre-heat process?
3) Does the weld joint require intermittent pass heat control?
4) Does the welded member require post-weld heat treatment?
5) What type of filler metal is required?
6) Will a MIG process be correct? Or is it TIG? Certainly not a SMAW process. Or is it? Then does one use a E6018 series electrode or a E7018 series electrode? Which series will supply the correct amperage without burning through?
7) Will any weld related defects such as incomplete penetration, lack of fusion, undercut, weld craters, crater cracks or intermittent cracking between weld passes, create a stress rise point? And if so, will it be a point of failure?
8) Will the weld area need a visual inspection to ensure that no weld defects (from lack of craftsmanship) exist? Or possibly a magnetic particle examination? Or a dye penetrant test? Again, to ensure no weld related defects exist.
9) Was the weld joint properly prepared? Correct bevel angel? Correct gap? Correct fit-up? Any cracked tack welds, that will be incorporated into the root pass?

Given the fact that it IS NOT WELDED when you buy the truck and it WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE WELDED as a substitute repair for the original design, all of these questions were answered and accounted for within the original design calculations of the structural component. I have seen more weld defects than I care to count, and I have seen a fair amount of weld defect related failures. Personally speaking, I wouldn't trust the word, the craftsmanship, nor the design guess work of a machine shop or automotive shop weld repair individual.

Just my $0.02, as a Mechanical Engineer and an AWS CWI. <----If ya' don't know what it is, then don't second guess. :D smile.gif

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: NutNbutGMC ]

NutNbutGMC

03-13-2002, 19:36

GMFAN70

03-13-2002, 20:59

NutNbutGMC

Really great questions. I was a EE but worked with lots of you AWS guys when getting a new facility built. But of course there's no local weld/repair shop that can satisfy gov't AWS standards.

Has anyone considered informing the NTSB about these proposed, un-approved chassis modifications? It's my impression that they play a very active role in trying to assure highway safety.

I found them at"www.ntsb.gov" but didn't look for ways to communicate.

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: GMFAN70 ]

NutNbutGMC

03-13-2002, 21:02

Well, I hope I didn't come off as a know-it-all. I just happen to have been doing this "stuff" for 23 years in the commercial nuclear industry. In that business, we make it right or it doesn't happen. Good to see some fellow "roadies" in the crowd.

GMC-2002-Dmax

03-13-2002, 21:11

NUT,

Hey I'm just a Tileman and have dabbled with welding only during the restoration of some 10 or so classic Chevelles from 1967-1970, anyway that's another story.

My point was I know good welds when I see them and I know for the most part a machine welds without the errors a human does, no cracks on any welders in the Forum. But I would agree that the General made it the way they did for a reason and when it didn't work the way they thought they changed it to make it better.

I am happy that mine is the newer version.

I would not be happy if mine was the older version and was not fixed correctly, especially for the cost of these rigs today.

just my .02 cents as well

GMC

NutNbutGMC

03-13-2002, 21:22

^..... I'm sure you know a good weld when ya' see it. Even the 30 year skilled pipefitters say that to me. I have busted out (rejected the weld acceptance) more welds than Carter has liver pills, that "looked" good. I don't mean this as an insult to your integrity, but a weld always looks good to the welder. A machine weld can't control moisture intrusion (even with shielding gasses or flux) therefore there is always the likelihood of porosity, which is as bad as any other defect. Machine welds are not perfect. And what I suspect you are deeming as a machine weld, is actually an automated process of feed, and not guidance or machine induced coersion of base metals and filler metals. I have inspected welds to ASME, AWS and ANSI B31.1 welding codes for 23 years. So, your are preaching to the choir here. :D . Additionally, I am an AWS (American Welding Society) CWI (Certified Weld Inspector) of 17 years. Take my word and expertise (should you choose) for what it is on this subject matter. A weld may look good, until it is non-destructively tested (MT, PT, UT or X-rayed), or inspected by me. :D . A weld ISN'T a weld. Stick to tiling and you'll go far. Leave the weld criteria to me.. :D :D Don't use this shade-tree weld repair method, as a solution or as a false sense of structural security. smile.gif smile.gif JMHO

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: NutNbutGMC ]

GMC-2002-Dmax

03-13-2002, 21:41

NUT,

You are the weld man :D ( I'll take your word for it ) and yes I will stick to tiling it has taken me this far already, why change horses in the middle of the stream.

Anyway all of those technical words you use don't mean a thing to me :confused: & my "degree" is 17 years experience and more tile put down than Carter ever had pills!!! tongue.gif

But hey it's great that this forum has such vast knowledge and such helpful people, I've only been here a short time and am impressed.

Thanks for enlightening me. ;)

GMC

NutNbutGMC

03-13-2002, 21:49

^,,,,AH, but that's what it's all about. Fun and information here on this "UBB-less" forum. I now have found a point of contact for information that I'll need soon on replacing this worthless cold-@$$ (and expensive) ceramic tile in my kitchen and foyer. I'll be asking for your expertise and knowledgebase soon. Have a great week. smile.gif

Turbo Al

03-14-2002, 08:55

GMC -- because the horses were wet??? ;)

sonofagun

03-14-2002, 15:32

My point was (and is) that anyone who isn't willing to go through the incredible mountain of BS that getting a new truck would take -- the part can be welded by a competent craftsman (that is not --- my point--- anyone at the dealer). I have worked on and raced many a fast car in years past and a lot of human welding was required. The welds were structural and very important. I never had (nor saw) one that failed, even in some very spectacular crashes. There is no question that you need competent help but I don't think you can seriously say that all human engineered welding isn't going to hold up. Can't buy that. Getting a new truck is better, but this is the next best way to solve the problem (my point from the start).

Bob

BigBob

03-14-2002, 15:49

I am still in the middle of negoiating my reslove. Durning my investigation GM has made a few things very clear, my problem is with the dealer and not GM. Any modificaton by me or the dealer correcting his error by modifying the crossmember or even a commplete frame change has altered the original state of the manufactured vehicle, as it was construcred to be sold. Which in turn, would adversley affect the safety, and preformace of the vehicle and the terms of the warranty. They basicly told me I am on my own no matter who does the repairs, regardsless of how good it is welded.

mackin

03-14-2002, 18:45

That would tell me a fix would not be in the mix. Even if the dealer in writing offered to warranty there work I would not accept. If the dealer goes south (don't believe it can't happen) or was sold you are left holding the bag. In addition how about resale value? If someone possibly ran a check on car fax. Com the repair would show up rendering it "worthless." I would settle for nothing less than a brand new vehicle. With all attorney fees. I hope you are not driving it and have a loaner. This problem is a complete blunder on there part. Nail them to the wall............ I would and them some......... It can be done......
MAC

NutNbutGMC

03-14-2002, 19:36

^^^............SoG, I see your point, whole-heartedly and your odds of prescribed success are most likely better than my odds of a described engineering failure. I wasn't imposing an opinion, but merely exhibiting a consideration of, "the other side of the coin". In a race car, you may very well not see a weld failure, because the weld is possibly (probably) not the weakest link, as would be the component member itself, but once you see a failure, at any magnitude, you'll ALWAYS think twice about weld related integrity. Most of the related failures I have witnessed are steam induced. But they DO happen. That's why we do design stress calculations. The quality of weld installation is not my point. The point is, that there may be a chance of a weld defect, that most (and I mean MOST) are not capable of detecting. That's where the posibility of failure (safety)lies. I have seen many more miles of good welds than bad (thus your point), but I assure you that I have seen plenty of miles of defected welds also. Enough on that stuff. smile.gif I'm done here. Too much like work :D .

Mackin, I agree with your point of view as well. I'd prefer a new truck.

Big Bob I hope you get things worked out to your satisfaction.

All Y'all, have a great weekend.
Chuck

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: NutNbutGMC ]

GMC-2002-Dmax

03-14-2002, 20:19

Turbo Al,

Yes, they were wet!! :D

And the water was cold :eek:

And this is a lot of fun!!! :D

GMC

NutNbutGMC

03-14-2002, 20:23

^.. Is this a rainbow coalition between these two? :D

csimo

03-14-2002, 21:52

Big Bob,

Your statement "Durning my investigation GM has made a few things very clear, my problem is with the dealer and not GM." should be a clear indication to you that you need an attorney!

The dealer made the repairs, and errors, acting as an authorized representative of GM. The dealer is not without fault, but GM is responsible as well.

The closest example that comes to mind would be that if you were driving a vehicle for your employer and had a wreck. Even if that wreck was your fault your employer is responsible as well. The employer can't just tell the injured party that "it's the employees fault and we're not involved". It just doesn't work that way.

I don't know you, but I do know you are negotiating with professionals. If you are not a professional (an attorney) please get help before having any additional communications with either the dealer or GM.

You should also consider contacting your insurance company, but I would contact a good attorney first.

sonofagun

03-15-2002, 11:28

NutNBut,

Your points, too, are well made. This is a really Cra*** deal because the dealer will wiggle, GM will waffle, attorney fees will accumulate,etc, etc. The end result is, most likely a new truck plus attorney fees but what a bloody mess.

Bob

Mic

03-15-2002, 11:35

"Just my $0.02, as a Mechanical Engineer and an AWS CWI. <----If ya' don't know what it is, then don't second guess."

American Welding Society Certified Weld Ingineer

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: Mic ]

Redhawk

03-15-2002, 14:20

I had a serious problem with another brand truck, a 2000 model. I went around and around with the dealer, who took my part, and with the manufacturer, who did nothing but procrastinate. That is the corporate modus operandi. After months of wrangling, I finally went to an attorney specializing in lemon law practice. He took my case at no charge because he thought I was being screwed. A week after I got the attorney, the manufacturer suddenly wanted to settle. They bought back my truck, paid for my attorney and all aftermarket products I had bought for my truck.

But the best part to come out of that situation is that I now own the best truck I have ever owned.

This is the long way of telling you to at least see an attorney for advice on your bad situation. Then everyone will know you are serious about getting some kind of prompt resolve to your problem. Don't let them put you off. They're only hoping you will go away or settle out of frustration. I hope this helps.

Redhawk

03-15-2002, 14:23

NutNbutGMC

03-15-2002, 19:03

Mic... Too funny, ...... but I fail to see the humor... J /K ( :D :D ) You know the acronym... I am not talking this stuff any more. Too much like work. If I never see another weld for the rest of my life, it will be too soon. smile.gif

ChevysRus

03-18-2002, 18:13

Well, now that we are all "bonded" (a form of welding) I just want to add my shadetree comment, that if I am gonna weld some metals so's they "stick" together then I just go down to my gerage and plug in my Sears stick welder into my clothes dryer socket (soons the old ladies in bed and stops drying them clothes)and den I hold those 2 or more pieces of similar metals together and touch the stick part of the welder to one of those metal parts and watch the sparks fly. I keeps on doing this until it sounds like bacon fryin in the pan thens I knowed I had the stick part just about right distance from the metal part. When I is done "layin down the bead" I hit it real hard with the pointy part of my hammer to get the chips to fly off, then I looks to see if I missed anythang. If there is no holes or gaps or that stuff that is suppose to fly off still stuck on there, then I drop the metal parts into a bucket of water and when it stops sizzling, I is done.

Now that is usually good enough for me and whatever I am welding and I don't want no awe, cwi or fbi or cia types checking my welding.

However, when it comes to that nuculuer stuff, man I sure appreciates that someone (thank Gawd) is checking up on those old boys whos doing the welding and sticking that metal together, cause if there be too much steam building up in those "vessels" and one of those welds be popping loose, man all kinds of bad stuff be leaking and spewing and maybe glowing as well. So I for one continue to weld my way, my things and I am very glad old NutN is there on the job to be sure those special welds of his have no holes or gaps or cracks cause we are all in his capable hands when it come to dis kinda special welding.

OK enough on sticking metal together and maybe hopefully the man will get a new truck from GM and GM can settle with their "agent" acting on GM's behalf. Do you understand what I said there, when I used the word "Agent". If not please spend a few minutes with your attorney, you will get a new truck and all you money back, plus some for all the stress you is suffering at the hands of these "negligent" GM workers.

All kidding aside, it's a game and we are the pawns. Step up the pressure and they will get the message. The dealer made the mistake, but the warrany item and procedure was issued by GM. You assume GM and their "agent dealer" are capable of doing the proper work required.

Good Luck and don't cave in on this one. Let us know where you are roughly and we can get you the name of a good attorney specializing in this sort of stuff.

NutNbutGMC

03-18-2002, 21:13

^..I'm not at liberty to speak on Bob's behalf, however, I have been in contact with him. He is a very happy GMC owner.

Is that the best you can do? :D

mcfly

03-19-2002, 19:25

Ok Bob,

What gives? Did you get things worked out? Please, we want to know.

-Rick

BigBob

03-20-2002, 18:38

It happened a month ago today, and for awhile it seemed like it was going to take forever, if ever.
On the second day the dealers service writer and mechanic confessed right away to the error and told me the repair was simple. I took a few days to research my concerns and on day 6, met with service manager who told me I was over reacting. On day 13 met with the owner and told him my truck would not pass a provincial safety check (mechanic agreed) and left it at the dealership until there was a resolve(mechanical or replacement).day 20 the dealers sales manager called me and I met him on day 22 and he had a proposal for buy back with a usage fee, for year I used my truck. On day 24 I talked to the owner on the phone, to discuss what was proposed and concluded with a agreement.
1. buy back at the price I payed . 2. purchase 2002 at the same price as 2001. 3. sprayed reflex Bedliner 4. upgrade the tire on 2002 to Michilens 265's 5. loaner until new arrives. 6. and yes the usage fee which will amount to about 5% of the value of the vehicle which I used for a year and and enjoyed 30,000 kms. Yes I am happy with the outcome. Just wish the new one was here.
I Thank all the members that provided opinons they were greatly appreciated..

csimo

03-20-2002, 20:07

Congratulations Big Bob for sticking to your guns! Sounds like you got what you deserved... a new truck. I wish everyone held the dealers accountable for their neglect as you have done.

mcfly

03-20-2002, 21:51

Bob,

Not a bad deal. My estimate you paid around 40K for the 01 new, drove it for a year and only paid 2k for the use fee :cool: When will your new truck be available?

Congrats :D :D :D

-Rick

stevem

03-20-2002, 21:58

Big Bob

Glad to hear the good news. smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Congrats,Steve

NutNbutGMC

03-20-2002, 22:12

^.. Bob, even after our e-mail exchanges, congrats and thank you (again) for all of the info. that you allowed me, that certainly helped me get a resolution as well. Happy motoring in the new 2k2.

OldCarKook

03-20-2002, 22:41

You know, this has been a truly amazing thread. I learned much here for sure. I am taking delivery of my Duramax next Wed (ordered in Dec) and I found quickly that I was much more knowlegeable about this launch shudder issue than anyone in the dealership and all because of what I read here.

They tell me it's fixed in the '02s. I will be vigilant. I also learned about the link to the list of recalls and TSBs for all vehicles (not sure if that was here) and it has been VERY helpful and informative.

In case it was not on this page, here it is for others to bookmark:

http://www.alldata.com/recalls/index.html

By going to the "root" alldata.com, you can access TSBs and recalls on any vehicle.

Thanks to all who participated in this thread. It has been very informative.

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: OldCarKook ]

NutNbutGMC

03-20-2002, 23:04

^...OCK, actually there is a revised bulletin that addresses the 2k2 specifically, as well as clarifies the proper procedure for replacement without X-member damage.

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: NutNbutGMC ]

JoeyD

03-21-2002, 00:02

What will the dealer do with Bobs truck?
Will they sell it to someone with out telling them what was wrong?
Will GM have it black listed for future warranty claims?
I know the frame has nothing to do with the engine of trans or most anything, except frame, but will it still have a GM warranty?
I hope someone doesn't get this truck and have some problems.

NutNbutGMC

03-21-2002, 06:09

^... I recently suggested to Bob that it be reported to carfax.com. Who knows? I'd bet it will quickly find its way into the auction block.

mcfly

03-21-2002, 09:52

Hey Nut,

You made reference to you getting a resolution? I believe that you had the same thing happen to you as BigBob? Did you get a new truck as well?

-Rick

NutNbutGMC

03-21-2002, 14:50

I did indeed get another 2k2. Basically the same scenario of settlement as Bob. They luckily had one on the lot and I paid a useage fee and the rest was lateral. I'm not really at liberty to elaborate a lot at this time, as others are negotiating the same problem, howwever, I'm pleased with the outcome. One thing I can say is that I had a lot of extras to swap out, but they did them all for me or had a SME to do it, such as was the audio system.
I reported my VIN to carfax as a damaged component. DOn't know how far it goes or who cares but it's in the system.

mcfly

03-21-2002, 15:14

Nut,

That is most excellent :D

I wonder who will eat these trucks? Does GM buy them back? Does the retarded mechanic get charged back for the screw up? Does the service manager get his pee pee slapped for being just as retarded as the mechanic? Just pondering.

-Rick

OldCarKook

03-21-2002, 18:58

It seems to me that I read somewhere else that cause of cutting the crossmember was the result of bad technical copyrighting/proofreading by the art department. When they showed the illustration on the cross member cut on the 4/17/01 TSB, they showed the dotted lines going THROUGH the cross member when in fact they should have gone through the perches for the carrier bearing to remove the carrier bearing only for the single driveshaft replacement.

Is this correct? Also do I understand that this is still an issue in the 2k2 trucks? My truck is JUST delivered and I'm taking delivery next Thursday. What do I need to do or look for?

NutNbutGMC

03-21-2002, 19:20

^...OCK, That is correct. Kinda' the same thing I said in an earlier post to this thread. None-the-less, First thing to look for is crawl up under your machine and see if it has a 1-piece or a 2-piece. That will be the deciding factor. Then, a "Launch Shudder" problem has to exist. There are several takes on that but here's the bottom line. (IF) you have a 2-piece, take it in and tell them it has a shudder when under a load. They can't duplicate the conditions unless they have a load to hook onto the machine. So, let's assume they say no problem a new shaft is on the way. We'll call ya' for an appointment, when it comes in. At this time, the most important thing is that they do the replacement procedure in accordance with the revised TSB, CLEARLY showing the correct way to do the replacement (with no cut X-member). Reemphasize that point, discuss the bulletin, write that instruction on the service order (DO NOT CUT...) and pick the truck up at the end of the day, with a new 1-piece and X-member in tact. Done deal and a new shudderless drive shaft. This is not a complicated process but it just needs a little attention to detail.

OldCarKook

03-22-2002, 18:12

NutnBut: Saw the truck today for the 1st time. It has a split driveshaft and so did every other crew cab short bed there. That's close to a dozen trucks that I looked at. This is a large truck only dealer.

I pull a trailer so I'll be all over this issue. It would seem that I should complain about it on my first service appointment whether I have it not since its clear that it is coming up on most crews that tow anyway. I want it in the service record from the beginning.

This thread has been of tremendous help and interest to me.

Got into a discussion with the Service Mgr. about this and they are moderately aware of the issue now. I directed them to the TSB as a result of reading this thread about a month ago. That was the first time they were made aware of it.

Anyway, he told me a wierd story on another similar problem.

They had a customer with a one ton that had some kind of vibration at 35-40. A wierd sort of vibration that seemed to eminate from the rear end at a certain speed. Dealer chased it unsuccessfully and called the factory.

Factory says replace driveshaft. They did - but it did not fix it. Factory says replace rear end - they did - not fixed. The factory says replace the tranny which they did - you guessed it, not fixed. Factory says swap the vehicle out for a new one which they did and then the factory says "we'll fly someone out". They do.

He comes with some rather impressive diagnostic equipment and begins a lengthy evaluation. The last part of the testing was he ran some electronic box all over the vehicle including the frame. Bingo. Found it. There were contaminents in the steel in the frame in the right rear section and somehow they set up a harmonic distortion at 35-40 mph under certain conditions. Impossible to fix.

They then removed the engine and interior and dropped the truck in the crusher to make sure that no one tried to salvage any of it. Pretty interesting...eh? I thought it was.

NutNbutGMC

03-22-2002, 18:26

^..Interesting tid-bit to a Mechanical Engineer. I'll have to think on that one, but thank you for sharing. I'd suggest to go ahead and make your pitch to have the driveline replaced. Good luck and (as you have already stated) thanks to all of the Diesel Heads here that contribute to the knowledgebase of diesel fun.

mackin

03-22-2002, 19:41

Just a little insight being in the steel business forever this "no offense" does not make sense

There were contaminants in the steel in the frame in the right rear section and somehow they set up a harmonic distortion at 35-40 mph under certain conditions. Harmonic may prove density not a contaminant.
If it was true could not be detected in that way. But rather a piece would have to be cut out sent to a lab and analyzed for chemistry. If a contaminant or off chemistry was detected it would be a source of weakness. To affect drive line vibration. One would have to assume it would be so weak that under load it would distort and bend resulting in MIS alignment. So it just might be one of those he said she said and added to stories.
MAC :D

TimofCharlotte

03-22-2002, 20:08

From a Mech Engrg perspective, it is not hard to believe that they could measure the harmonic signature of key parts of the truck, without destructive tests.
This is done quite often in the power generation field to detect problems with foundations and other ancillary equipment that may be contributing to vibration of turbine equipment. It's sometimes called a 'hammer test', as the equipment essentially sends a sonic wave into an area and the response it gets back can be analyzed for its natural frequency. Pretty sophisticated, and requires a thorough understanding of the modeling and design of the truck's frame and body, and what natural frequencies are built into them. If the person if from GM, they would have access to exactly what harmonics should be present throughout the vehicle. Not a tool likely available to any dealerships.
All vehicles have inherent vibrational modes which come about as a result of the natural frequency of its components. The designers try to make sure these frequencies do not coincide with normal/typical driving speeds/modes. Sometimes, due to the variations in manufacture, mistakes happen and the design creates a harmonic at the wrong time. Sounds like that is what happened. Pretty cool about putting it in the crusher. I would have liked to take the vehicle, knowing where the harmonic was off, and try to modify the mass or damping to change harmonic.

Hope that helps.

Chris N5CWM

07-27-2002, 09:41

TTT

What ever happened with this issue?

Curious...

SledZep

07-27-2002, 10:41

WOW, Seeing this thread again has me scared. I have waited (procrastinated) on bringing my truck in for any warranty work so far. I have all of the little things, dimming lights, radio time etc. But I also have the 2 piece and want the one piece drive shaft. After reading posts like this I already hate my local dealer and have never even been there! I am not the best person at staying calm in the face of stupidity and worry what will happen when I bring it in.

Maybe I'll go in with my lawyer :D :D