Tire chains, yes or no?

[Penngrovian]

Let me start by saying this is my first 4x4 and I have no experience in driving in snow as we live in the SF Bay Area.

We are going to Lake Tahoe next week and the possibility of the first snow of the season is out there.

We have a '02 Silverado 3500 D/A, CC, dually 4x4 and carry a 3000 lb. truck camper.

Owner's manual says on p.6-66, no chains permitted if you have dually LT 265-75R16 tires.

Our truck has LT 215-85R16 tires. Goodyear Wrangler SR

Service advisor says "no chains, use special cables" Service director and service mgr not available for comments.

Chevy customer assistance said they don't know much about this subject but would get back to me tomorrow.

So, who out there has my size tires and are you using chains or cables or ????

If I have 3000 lbs. in the bed of the truck, do I need chains/cables?

Are my 85 tires wider than the 75 tires mentioned on p. 6-66 of the owners manual. Is this what I am missing?

Any and all comments will be appreciated.

PS: I measured the distance between the dually tires at the narrowest point and it looks to be about 1 inch or 1-1/4 inch max. Maybe this is the reason the service advisor said "cables, not chains" as the chains would rub against each other?

[ 10-31-2002: Message edited by: Penngrovian ]

[ 10-31-2002: Message edited by: Penngrovian ]</p>

[chuntag95]

I can't help much, but I can answer your width question. The 265 is 265 mm, so your 215's are skinnier by about 2 inches. 25.4 mm equals one inch. If you have an all season tire or a AT tire, I would think that the 3000 lbs would put you in good shape for traction on snow. But, don't listen to me on that if someone from Co chimes in as I live in Tx and have all my life.

[mackin]

Penngrovian

Lived in the North East all my life ... Driven in blizzards .....During white outs....That is scary......Dually winter driving since 1988......

Ok forget the chains,With that amount of weight and a 4x4 you won't need them IMO....Most manufactures are single wheel application as clearance is the issue....Unless you get into commercial ....Plus the are a pain in the arse....You'll be on the side of the road in the snow struggling to get them on...Best to do with out.....

With that amount of weight over rear axle and four wheel drive getting traction won't be your problem.....Believe it or not.....
You didn't mention what tread tire you have.....Should be a traction tire at least if you don't have much experience in winter driving....


Stopping is where you will have problems if any.....Keep a safe distance between you and the guy in front of you .

[gardnerteam]

What you'll need depends on what type of surface you are driving on, ice, snow, etc. As to ice, it again depends on what type of ice and whether it is smooth or rough surface. I drove 4X4 Dually on Central Oregon snow and ice for about 8 years, using various combinations of dual chains on the rears, single chains front and rear, single chains front and dual rear, and the last two years of dually used 6 heavily studded mud and snow tires - had holes drilled and inserted lots of extra studs. For most normal snowy and occasional icy conditions, m/s tires, lots of weight, and caution will work. For rough icy (worn tracks, refrozen slush, etc) conditions, single rear chains or all around studs work well. The ultimate for slick smoothe ice conditions is v chains front and rear as well as weight and a prayer. Duallys due VERY poorly on ice and offroad snow. Extreme caution and slow speeds are required. Central Oregon snow and ice are the main reason I went from a dually back to a single rear tire. My winter tires are narrow 235/75R with extra studs.

[GBurton]

Penngrovian

So far everyone has skipped over one very important point. You need to find something to carry with you, chains or cables that will work with your truck and satisfy California "chain controls". Normally 4x4 with snow tires are not required to chain up but there are times when the CHP will NOT let you pass unless you have chains/cables on your tires. I don

[chuntag95]

Mac,
When it snows here in Texas, we just shut the state down till it melts. :D Because EVERYONE is the other guy you are worried about.

[MartyB]

Oregon and Washington also require chains on rigs in mtn pass area's on vehicles with gvwr's or gcwr's over 10K lbs, which your dually would be, as long as the 'traction devices required" sign is up. As for the "chains required", obviously no matter the gvwr or gcwr you need them on your rig.
I have to chain my truck and minimum of one chain on TT, when pulling my TT over mtn pass's here in Wa st, as my truck, 9200 lbs plus TT, 7500 lbs is over 10K total.
Find out the rules for the state you are driving in. There are a couple of states in the midwest, I have been told no metal traction devices can be used. Sound's kinda scarry to me.
Also, going is not the problem, it's stopping going down hill, that a 4x4 is useless on snow and ice, so is a 2wd, awd or any vehicle for that matter.

[TxDoc]

We don't have proper snow clearing equipment here in Texas. You are own your own. I bought cable chains from SSC chain company. The cables ride smooth, start and stop great on ice--which seems to be what we get, ice and freezing rain.

I bought:
http://www.scc-chain.com/NewFiles/Seasonal%20Pages/Traction%20Products/szlt_products.html this Super Z LT. They come in a box that is easily stored for use. Two hookups on the tire, one inside and one out. Rubber tensioner keeps it tight, no adustment. They work fine with ABS, too.

Also read for info:

http://www.scc-chain.com/NewFiles/Seasonal%20Pages/fact_or_fiction.html

Super Z LT offers the same performance features as Shur Grip Z:

* Fastest, easiest installation of any traction product.

* Better all-around traction performance than conventional tire chains
or cable chains.

* Greater durability than conventional tire chains or cable chains.

* Better compatibility with anti-lock brakes, traction control, all-wheel drive and other electronically-monitored control systems.

* Meets S.A.E. Class "S" clearance requirements for vehicles with limited clearances.

* Low potential for damage to vehicle body and mechanical components, even when abused.

Which Winter Traction Products have the best traction?

There are many types of traction, but here are two rules that can serve as reliable guidelines:

* Products with cross member patterns that are criss-crossed or diagonal shaped will generally provide more starting, stopping and cornering traction than products whose cross members are parallel to each other.

* Ladder style link chain will generally perform better in deep snow (more than 8 inches) than ladder style cable chains.

A good way to actually see the traction provided by each traction type, is to look at the snow tracks.
Click this for patterns:
http://www.scc-chain.com/NewFiles/Seasonal%20Pages/track_description.html


Which tires should I chain up?

The vehicle's drive tires are the tires on which traction devices should be installed. On vehicles with front-wheel drive this would be the two front tires and on rear wheel drives this would be the rear tires. If you're not sure which type of drive system you have, check the owner's manual. Also, if you have four-wheel drive or all wheel drive and only intend to chain up two tires, always check the owner's manual for advice on which axle to chain up. To alleviate confusion and retain as much of the normal handling characteristics of your 4WD/AWD as possible, install traction devices on all four tires.

Under normal driving conditions, a vehicle has about the same amount of traction at each wheel, creating a feeling of "normal" control during braking, acceleration and cornering. Under snow and ice conditions this balance is destroyed. If winter traction products are installed only on the front tires, the rear of the vehicle can swing around during braking and cornering. If winter traction products are installed only on the rear tires, the steering ability of the vehicle is limited. To get this balance back, the vehicle should be completely equipped with traction devices.

Remember that traction devices are sold in pairs. Therefore, if you want to cover both axles (all four tires) on the vehicle, you must purchase two pairs.

Any NAPA auto store should have them or can order.
Good Luck.

[ 10-31-2002: Message edited by: TxDoc ]</p>

[AKDmax]

WOW! Never figured y'all in Texas would know so much about chains. Got me thinkin, I'd better get a set for my trip to the states in Feb. Never know when chains might be required by the state. Thanks for the info...

[chevmeister]

http://www.insta-chain.com/
not for the one time use but for those of you who have to chain up and unchain alot there worth it.

[Bill McGouirk]

I wonder the same thing I live i the bay area and go up to the snow to. I have a 4x4 2500HD Demax with BFGs 285-75-16 MT can they make Me put changes on to satisfy California "chain controls"?

Thanks any info would help
Bill

[Jelisfc]

Onspot, onspot.com and a Swedish company make traction devices which are rubber edged wheels with short chains attached to it. An actuator moves the wheel onto the truck tire and the chains flail under the truck tire. They work great. They are perfect for fire trucks and school buses that may all of a sudden get into a jamb. They also have sizes for pickups.

Here is also a link for Cali chain rules. http://www.tirechain.com/california-chain-requirement.htm

[ 10-31-2002: Message edited by: Jelisfc ]</p>

[mackin]

Poor "Penngrovian" he only wanted to go from Frisco to Tahoe....See the Lake ,ski,Not circle the Globe.....I'm scared now to go and I'm on the East coast...... :D

But thanks for the chain links =&gt;Get it&lt;= need to get a set for me Dad for xmas....He got one of them there (old)4x2 gasser dodgers......With a one legger he's in trouble....Better to travel on sunny days.....

MAC

[ 11-01-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[mackey_62]

Aaaaaaah!
I love the smell of snow in the morning.

It's coming, 6"-12" tonight into tomorrow.
Guess I won't have to look at that brand new looking plow in the barn much longer.

Chains...never used'em.
Definitly have been times pulling snowmobile trailer when I wouldn't have minded havin'em.
But...probably wouldn't want to go put'em on if I had'em.

I guess if your CHP says so, mize well get'em.

[IndigoDually]

Just 1 thing.... I don't think that the ABS is operating when in 4wd. At least in '01's they don't. Found that out skidding past a car that slammed on the brakes (at least we were in the opposing lane of traffic! :eek: )

I can't remember if they work in my '02

John

BTW I have a set of cable chains for ny 3500HD that are simple to put on and work great and were pretty cheap. The only problem is that they can't be used on clean roads or above 30 mph or they will get torn up.

[ 11-01-2002: Message edited by: IndigoDually ]</p>

[tanker]

If I were you I'd buy a set of cable chains for as much as you will need them. If you are serious about getting up the rockies a lot, then I'd recomend "OnSpot" automatic tire chains. A little expensive but they really work well. Fantastic on ice and hard packed snow. I've had them on my 95 suburban for over 5 years. Here in Pennsylvania we have some nice high crown back roads that when its icy you slide to the ditch. With the flick of a switch I have instant traction even when braking. Yes I have 4 wheel drive but on ice and stopping nothing beats chains. With "OnSpots" you don't need to stop and put them on or off, they are always ready. Check out their web site www.onspot.com smile.gif

[GBurton]

For those of us who still live or drive in the liberal capitol of the USA (AKA California). Here is a link to the California DMV web site. I tried to post the complete link to the "chain controls" section but for some reason it was changed by the board.

So go to this site: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/

Once you are there, enter "chain controls" in the search box that is located in the upper right hand side of the page and then click on the search button.

George

[ 11-01-2002: Message edited by: GBurton ]</p>

[Turbo Al]

Indigo Dually, my ABS works in 4x4 just fine, pretty much the same as 2x4.
IMHO cables would do 90% of the people here just fine, I have run both chains and cables over the years and chains are far superior under really bad condions such as smooth ice or really hard packed snow but they are really rough riding, and hard on the suspension. Cables are what I use now because they are cheaper and will tolerate some dry pavement driving.
IF you only intend to buy one set then put them on the frount tires -- that is where all your weight and your steering is, just be darn carefull going DOWN steep hills -- the rear may want to become your frount. smile.gif
Turbo Al

[Penngrovian]

OK, here is the latest: Chevy service advisor said to use cables only. Chevy customer assistance said to use chains.

I went to NAPA Auto and bought two sets of SCC Super Z LT cable chains.

In case of snow I plan to use one set on front wheels and the other on outside dual wheels.

Thanks for your help.

[IndigoDually]

I found it easier to put the chains on the outside dual tire by driving the inside tire up on a block of wood so you don't have to feed it between the tires.

John

[TxDoc]

More state regulation info:

http://www.scc-chain.com/NewFiles/Seasonal%20Pages/regulations.html

California info pdf file--
http://www.scc-chain.com/PDF%20Documents/Ca%20Truck%20Chart.pdf

Several western states (like California, Oregon and Washington) have chain laws that require carrying and/or using winter traction devices at certain times or under certain road conditions.

In these states, failure to carry and use winter traction products as prescribed by local authorities can result in fines and/or other penalties. These chain laws are the most complicated for commercial vehicles, specifically tractor-trailer combinations.

Although they vary by state, the most representative is California's diagram showing requirements acceptable in any jurisdiction.


Tire chains, cable chains and other winter traction devices are legal in every state and province in North America.


All legal authorities recognize the difference between "studded tires" and other winter traction devices. Some states and provinces either limit the use of studded tires or outlaw them completely because studs are considered to be a permanently attached device which contributes to expensive damage to the road surface over time. Tire chains, cable chains and other like traction devices are considered "temporary" because they are installed only when needed. They don't represent the same kind of threat to road surfaces. As far as we know, the City of Chicago is the only place in North America where winter traction products of any kind are deemed illegal and may not be used.

Cal Trans approved! Security Chain's heavy duty cable chain, Super Z, meets Cal Trans I-80 "minimum" requirements.


In December 1997, Cal Trans (California Dept. of Transportation) approved the use of SCC's Super Z winter traction product under their unpublished "minimum" chain-up requirements. Super Z is the only cable chain currently approved by Cal Trans to meet this standard, which allow some commercial vehicles to proceed with less than the minimum number of chains required by law.


Colorado is the only governmental authority in North America that recognizes a legal difference between cable chain, tire chains, rubber chain or any other variety of traction devices that can be temporarily installed on a tire.


Since November 1, 1996, the Colorado Department of Transportation (CDOT) has enforced regulations making the use of most "cable" chain products virtually illegal on vehicles over 26,000 GVW. The CDOT definition does allow some cable chain as an alternative traction device or ATD. ALL SCC heavy duty cable chain products are approved Alternate Traction Devices. CDOT allows them to be used on commercial vehicles of 26,000 GVW, with the exception of single axle trailers.

Questions about chain laws and current regulations can be directed to the following departments:

Oregon Department of Trans.
Ashland, OR 541-482-4344


Oregon Department of Trans.
Salem, OR 503-986-3005

California Department of Trans.
Sacramento, CA 916-654-3102

Washington Department of Trans.
Olympia, WA 360-705-7000

Colorado Department of Trans.
Denver, CO 303-757-9536

[sooty]

Check this site for chain requirements for each state. http://www.tirechain.com/ Jim