Epilogue on seized wheel nuts

[deckhand]

I just got a 1993 C3500 SRW regular cab Cheyenne. I am real happy with it. It has a 350, an NV4500 with the supertrick low first gear and 3.73s in the rear.

I have run into a problem though. Everytime I buy a used vehicle one of the first things I do is check the wheel nuts for overtightness because of the widespread use of impact wrenches. I went to check these and sure enough they seem to be practically welded on. I first used a 7/8 12 point socket with a breaker bar with no success whatsoever. I then noticed "metric" written in very small letters on the end of the nuts. Are these a metric size nut? They are beginning to round off a little and I am getting concerned.

Does anybody have any advice? I thought that tomorrow I would get one of those heavy duty thick walled six point impact sockets and try that. Is that a good idea? What if that doesn't work? I am not sure of how to turn it anyway since I don't think even a breaker bar would hold up under the force I am going to need. Any advice would be appreciated.

What if I can't get them off at all. Is there some way to split them off without damaging the studs? Thanks again. I am a new member and this is my first post.

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: deckhand ]

[ 06-07-2002: Message edited by: deckhand ]</p>

[mackin]

deckhand ,

That su**s ..... I truly believe it is 7/8 . Well, that's what I used anyway. The metric number is the stud 14 mm ......... I had to replace studs on my 98 because of some idiot at a tire shop. Fronts are real easy. Pound them out and put new ones in and sock them up .... Backs are a whole different story ......For the record 12 point sockets have a tendency to due some rounding ... Switch to an 8 ...... Or less if you got one ...... You got to get them off so put a pipe on your breaker bar or something ...... You may want to get studs and nuts before proceeding, first, well some, anyway .......Good luck .......

MAC smile.gif

[Lone Eagle]

Try the breaker bar first. If that doesn't do it, take it to a local tire store and have them bust them loose and retorque them to about 130 ft.lbs. All tire stores in Utah are required to use a torque wrench. Later! Lone Eagle

[deckhand]

Hey that was quick. Thanks for the advice on this mundane but vexing problem. I was also thinking on getting a real big four way lug wrench. By pushing up on one side and down on the other maybe there would be less tendency fot it to slip off and maybe I could also push in on it at the same time. Sounds like Utah is a good place to be. I have thought for years it should be against the law to tighten them with an impact wrench because you are just creating problems down the road for someone you don't even know. Can you imagine it this happened while you were on the roadside in the middle of the night?

Any more suggestions would be most welcome.

[ 05-31-2002: Message edited by: deckhand ]</p>

[Redhawk]

Using a breaker bar over the wrench is good advice, but I think it would be a good idea to be somewhere where parts would be available if you had some kind of trouble, like a stripped nut or something. It does happen sometimes. When you put your lug nuts back on, use a high capacity torque wrench. I've heard everything from 75 ft. lbs to 250 ft.lbs to be the correct figure, so check that out. Good luck.

[mackey_62]

Hey Deckhand,
Don't mean to insult your intelligence, but thought I would just mention the value of covering threads with a little NeverSieze. Here in central NY lots of winter salt on roads. If you get a couple years on tires or don't rotate, it takes a torch to get em off. Little 8 ounce bottle goes a long ways, and cuts down tremendously on bloody knuckles and broken bolts, lugs, etc.. I use Permatex w/copper, you'll want the copper if your gonna use it anywhere with high heat.
Hopefully this isn't too late.

[mark45678]

I 2nd the neverseize! but also put a small amount on the round mounting hub that centers the wheel. Have you ever tryed changeing a tire thats been on the same location for over a year,Its stuck and yourt callong it every name in the book as cars are blowing by you 2ft off your a*s! smile.gif

[deckhand]

Thanks for all the tips. I went and bought a big expensive 4 way truck lug wrench and managed to loosen a few of them with it so I think that will be the ticket. I am going to do the others later when it is in the shade. I found it works best if you hold it at the 10 o'clock 4 o'clock position and push down and pull up at the same time. That way it doesn't try and work off to the side as much. The anti-seize is a great idea. I was already thinking of using some. I was really beginning to sweat wondering if I was going to have to torch them off or something. I had already broken a couple of regular duty sockets and rounded one of the nuts off considerably.

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: deckhand ]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: deckhand ]</p>

[deckhand]

Update: I managed to loosen 24 of the 32 wheel nuts after much struggle. I can't get the other eight off. They are starting to round off more. My next step is to go to a tire shop and have them use their impact wrench. Using it and pushing in hard at the same time might do it. What am I to do if they just won't come off? Is there any way to cut or grind them off without damaging adjacent components? Has anyone else confronted this problem? Thanks for any advice. This has been a real bummer and so darn unnecessary too if they had just been installed right.

[mackin]

deckhand ,

Front or rear or both .........? Not really a whole lot of options...... You might try a little heat ....... Not to much but some ..... Have you tried anything like PB Blaster? Its a rust, frozen, lubricating bolt remover ...? Try heat first, this is flammable...... Don't try heat after this stuff ..... Use caution ........ How come there rounded ? Didn't you switch to 8 or 6 point socket ?

MAC

[deckhand]

Yes, I had a big truck style 4 way lug wrench which is six point. They just rounded off because they are overtightend. The nut portion of them really isn't long enough either in my opinion and the log wrench didn't fit as tightly as I would have liked. The ones left are both on the front and rear. I managed to get all on the left front loosened and the other three have either 2 or 3 each that won't come off. As a tip to others, I should have gone to a tire shop at the first sign of trouble instead of stubbornly trying to DIY. The impact wrench would have the dual advantage of pushing in on it and the hammering action, which is sometimes the best way to loosen a frozen fastener.

I guess I am just an internal pessimist always thinking of ways to cope when something go bad. Could I carefully grind the nuts off with a 3/8 inch drill and grind stone attachments? Seems like a cutting torch would be a fairly blunt instrument for this.

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: deckhand ]</p>

[Lone Eagle]

deckhand, The tire shop guys will take care of you and they will have new nuts also. I rotate my own tires. I snug them with an electric impact so I can lower the tires to the ground. I torque them in two stages to get 130 on my 2500. I just found a torque setting of 140 lbs for the eight lug wheel. It doesn't distinguish between the 2500 and 3500. Later! Lone Eagle :D

[deckhand]

Lone Eagle
Thanks for the encouraging words. Yep, when this ordeal is finally over the lug nuts will be properly torqued and well supplied with anti-seize. That is actually what I was planning to do when this whole thing started. I don't plan to let anybody else near them either.

Could you tell me more about the electric impact wrenches? Are they comparable in power to the pneumatic ones? I was thinking maybe I could rent one just to loosen them up. I am a little hesitant to be driving it around to tire shops because it was an auction vehicle and I don't have any plates on it yet.

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: deckhand ]</p>

[mackin]

deckhand,

Possible a nut splitter ....... Front perhaps , I doubt on the back ......
MAC

[deckhand]

No room for a splitter I am afraid. I will try heating them to see if that will work. Then the tire shop and let them give it a try. If that doesn't work I will have to figure out a way to cut them off. Maybe an artiste with a torch could lop them off without too much collateral damage. Not looking forward to that, of course, but I will have to do something. This truck was meant to be a bit of a project but I didn't expect to have to deal with something as worrisome and aggravating as this. I have dealt with stubborn wheel nuts before but never anything like this.

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: deckhand ]</p>

[mackin]

deckhand.

Well , at least it's a older model with those steel plates with conical seat lugnuts........ The new dually's did away with the plates and have a new style built in washer lugnut ..... There probly a fancy name for it but I don't know it ...... Use one of those plumber torches (PROPANE) to heat it up ...... You'd be surprise how well the work for doing things like this .... Good luck , and let us know ..... Things will get better ..... Keep the faith ....
MAC smile.gif

[rustypig]

Last ditch effort senerio...if the edges of the nut are gone and all appears lost after trying the heat trick...grab the biggest dang set of vice grips you can find. Lock em on where it takes every last ounce of energy you've got in your hands and smack them bad boy's with a hammer while pulling down (preferably with a cheater bar on the edge end of the vice grips). Worst thing that can happen is you'll snap off the lug itself. They're fairly cheap and not too hard to replace yourself (rear). Front's get a little more fun by having to pull the rotors etc. Ah yeah...and a monkey wrench has been "rumored" to work ok as well. ;) Good luck!

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: rustypig ]</p>

[NickLeinonen]

i thought that the lug size was 22mm. that comes out to 0.866" while the 7/8" is 0.875"

the antiseze stuff is good, but the copper antiseze eats aluminum. if you have alloy wheels, it is a good idea to use the aluminum flake antiseze. permatex makes that stuff too. i have a small bottle of the alum. stuff, and i have a BIG bottle of the copper stuff, that i got for the same price as the alum stuff [4-5x bigger]

[deckhand]

Good tips all and thanks. I will pick up a propane hand torch this week and and try that. Several people have recommended that approach. I am back at work now so it may be a couple of days before I can get to it. I need a break on it anyway. Good suggestion rustypig, I have done that before on other seized nuts. It seems to work best though when the vise grips and the nut are in the same plane. I would gladly take broken studs right now but those 14MMs don't seem to want to break off. I hope others benefit from my experience and make sure theirs are clean, antiseized, and properly tightened. An ounce of prevention is worth about a ton of cure in this case.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: deckhand ]</p>

[KenZ]

If you get to the point of the nuts being just too rounded off, you might try a metal chisel. Get a good grove and then angle the chisel to hammer in the direction of taking the nut off. The hammering may break it loose. I have done this on many rusted nuts, but not on lug nuts. You might also try a manual impact wrench. get a socket that will give you a tight fit and that you don't care about and pound on the top of the impact wrench with a 3 lb hammer.

I'm surprised you didn't just break the lugs off. I have broken a few trying to loosen them, but you can't have the socket slipping.

Good luck.

[Searay90]

Here is what I did on an old dodge ramcharger 4X4 I bought with the same problems.

1st soak the hell out of them with liquid wrench and let them set for at least an hour and then try the 6 point socket (or lug wrench).

If that does not work, or if you have rounded the lug nuts off.... Get out your dremel tool, mount up one of the "cut off wheels", and cut a grove in the lug nut as deep as you can without cutting down to the threads in the stud. After cutting the grove, get a metal (not a wood working chisel) chisel, a large hammer. Put the point of the chisel in the grove you cut and use the hammer to "split" the nut. You don't have to split the nut in two to get it off. As soon as you split the grove in two, the nut will release it's bite on the stud and you should now be able to unscrew the nut.

note: try to cut the grove in the nut parallel to the stud, not across (diagonally) the stud

Don't underestimate those little dremel cut off wheels. I've cut the shanks off of case hardened locks quickly with those little gems.

good luck

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: Searay90 ]</p>

[AlaskaDmax]

I think that Nick is right...they are metric. I went to NAPA to get the right size impact socket. The counter girl brought out her whole selection and the one that fit the "BEST" was a 21 or 22 mm socket. The standard sockets didn't like the nuts at all. I am at work (lunch break) or else I would run and check real quick.

[mackin]

All that chisel hammer stuff would be so simple if he didn't own a dually .......... Pretty tight in side those back cones ........ For a SAAAWING ........ ;)

If he had a single wheel axle he'd all ready be done I'd bet .......

MAC :D

[Searay90]

Mac... guess it depends on what size chizel you have ;) . I've got one in my tool box that is about 18 inches long that works perfectly well on the dual wheels. Now cutting the grove exactly parallel to the stud might be a little tricky.

If I couldn't cut a grove, I would try to use a center punch to put a dimple on the face of the lug nut, drill it out with progressively larger bits (start with 1/8") until you could... split it with a long chisel.

But I haven't had to use these crude methonds in the years since I put in a 5hp air compressor and purchased a nice set of Ingersol rand air tools. 350lb/ft of torque in reverse pretty much takes care of stubborn lug nuts :eek: :D

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: Searay90 ]</p>

[mackin]

Searay90,

So true ..... Guess what ? It is a single wheel 3500 too ....OOPS..... So swing batter swing .......

MAC :D

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[tonkater]

I've had the same problem with my 88 ext cab since new. Initially broke the factory ratcheting
wrench , then BROKE a 4 way lug wrench ! Luckily I've never gotten stranded by a flat with it. Last time I got tires ( in January) the tire shops air impact wouldn't even budge 3 of the nuts. They ended up heating them . I've even tried anti seaze and it didn't seem to help.
Are guys having same trouble on new trucks ?

[INDI-GO]

Well Now , if you could get a 24" Pipe wrench and a 4 ft cheater bar.... Someting will give.

I have some times loosened stuck nuts by trying to tighten them and then try and loosen them. Get lucky every now and then.

Louquid Wrench applied over a few days time has worked, and heating with a propane tourch has worked.

[NutNbutGMC]

^.......oxy-acetylene and a torch with a cutting TIP.

[mackin]

Lighter fluid , candle and a rag .........

MAC tongue.gif ?

[NickLeinonen]

what torque are you guys going at? on my tahoe, i set my torque wrench at 115lbs and i have a 6" extension on it when i tighten my wheels. i think the factory t-spec is 140lbs, but that is too much. when i had aftermarket alloy [tsw's] they were recomended 100lbs so that is what i used. the design of those wheel lugs on the tsw's made them stay on real good. my impact gun at home had a hard time getting them off after 6-7 months, and my gun "is suppose" to be good for 450lb/ft in reverse.. at times, i wish i had a 3/4" impact gun..

[deckhand]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have tried just about every one without success. Heating with propane, six point sockets, long cheater bars, soaking with penetrant, beating on one with a chisel in the directions of loosening. Nothing works, the material in the nut will give way before it loosens. If I had tried a really robust impact wrench like a 3/4 drive at first that might have worked, but I am not even sure of that. Someone installed them dry and then hammered on them good with an impact wrench for sure. I thought about getting some cutting wheels for my hand drill but with eight to do that might be rather tedious and time consuming, which would cut into my busy social life. Ha. I am going to have them torched off Friday. Somebody did mention something interesting. The 7/8 sockets were a little looser on them than I would have wished. Could the nut actually be a 22 MM or would a 22MM fit better anyway. A 21MM is too small. Also, I have seen lug nuts on other vehicles with a much deeper nut portion that these. That would really be better for the torque specified. Would there be any or these available for our trucks?

[TimT]

If the lugnuts are rusted/frozen and you've tried the whole barrel of tricks I've got 1 more. Soak them with Hoppe's #9 gun oil. I have yet to see it fail- in 30+ years of turning wrenches-

Tim :cool:

[deckhand]

I took the truck and had the eight hopeless wheel nuts torched off. He was able to cut the nuts off and leave the studs. One or two is in good shape and the others are fairly rough. I think they will chase up fairly well though, except a stud chaser in that size is hard to find. The only one I have found so far that is not part of a set is a SnapOn for $30. Most metric tap and die sets only go up to 12MM. Lessons I have learned:

1. The stud is a 14MM 1.5 and the nut is 22MM. A 7/8 socket is a fairly good fit but will round off the corners under very high torque.
2. If you are away from home a lot and can't afford downtime invest in a 22MM six point thick wall socket. 3/4 inch drive would be best. I was going through all this hassle at home. If I had been out on the road it would have been a real bummer.
3. Install wheel nuts by hand and use antiseize on them.

[ChaoticRacer]

Ahhh a 3/4" impact. Why not just get the 1" one and rip the stud out at the same time :D I've been lucky and just get away with the 1/2" impact at school ;)