Saw and Heard an '03 Cummins

[Rebel_Horseman]

Driving home today I passed the local Dodge stealership and saw in front an '03 3500 Dually. Stopped by to do some investigating. Managed to get the salesman to crank it up for me (a test drive was out of the question...the greedy owner won't even let the salesmen drive it). I have to say that the "new" Cummins is almost as quiet as a Duramax. I opened the hood and still could talk to the salesman without raising my voice. The engine bay is tight and the interior is pretty much the same as the half-ton's that you have been seeing everywhere except for the different tach for the diesel. Standing beside the motor with the hood closed it was about as loud as a Duramax. The HO engine is only available with the 6-speed for now, but they are getting a 4-speed auto late in themodle year from what I hear. All in all it was a pretty sharp looking truck, but it's still a Dodge. Just my $0.02 worth.

Reb [><]

[Big O]

Hey Reb,
How about giving me your email address, or contact me at mine--in sig.

[Rebel_Horseman]

Big O - holler at me at cowboybinkz71@cs.com

[BradL]

I too have heard the "new" Cummins, and have been for a test drive - a crew cab long box 2wd (a Mopar buddy has a crew cab short box 2wd on order due to arrive any day).

The "new" Cummins is every bit as quiet and as smooth as the Duramax - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

IMO, the cabin of the Dodge is still not on par with GM's - the front seat room is good, but the back seat room seems smaller.

[pepperidge]

Big O,

Have you run over Brittney Spears Yet? LOL

Every time my sister in law comes in town from Iowa, she wants my wife and I to take her to find that place. Real fun stuff But I always seem to be changing an exhaust bearing on the Dmax ;)
GM should probably recall those, Dont you think?

[Amianthus]

I think the new Dodge is quieter than the Dmax. Although, quiet isn't my thing. I had the chance to see one of the prototype Dodges at the Thunder in Muncie. The only thing you could hear running was the vacuum pump. I'm not kidding. My Grand Prix is louder than that thing was.

Be carefull about imitation. This engine system has been in use in Europe well before the Dmax was on the scene. It's only now being put to use in the United States. So who's imitating who?

On the aspect of the cab. I have to give it to GM. DC really screwed the pooch in the new cab design, as I see it anyway. It's nice, don't get me wrong. But the GM interior is just a touch nicer. I like the gauges of the Dodge, but the GM really does have some neat features. So kudos to GM for making a better interior.

My opinion.

[hoot]

Amianthus,

Is it basically the same injection system as the Dmax? Bosch HPCR? Same pump and injectors?

[More Power]

Moved to "General Diesel"

[NickLeinonen]

i can't wait till some of my dealers around here get some in. then i'll have to go for a test drive... i was a big chevy fan until the new body style.. the gmc is still ok, but i would like something different.

[Colorado Kid]

Uh oh! If somebody shows up with an '03 Cummins they might show me and the other stockers up at the Diesel Day this weekend!!!!

Actually I wish one would show up, so we won't have to wait a year to see how they compare. Of course there will be arguments that it hasn't been properly broken in, etc.

[Diesel Dan]

I must say not all Cummins powered Dodges are loud. A co-worker has a '93 Dodge/Cummins. My '93 6.5TD was louder than his, cold or warm. Have since seen a few more of the pre-94s that were quiet.

[NH2112]

I haven't heard the new Cummins, but MY GOD, those new Rams are so ugly they'd make a freight train take a dirt road!

[JohnM]

Today, I had a test drive in the 2003 Dodge Ram at Dave Smith Motors in Kellogg, Idaho. Dave Smith appears to have about a hundred new 2003 Dodge trucks in stock; half ton thru one ton models. The one I drove was a Heavy Duty, 2500, 4WD, Extra Cab, Cummins High Output (HO) Diesel w/6 speed manual trans. The sales rep who took me for the ride is named Greer Hamphill. Before I give my impressions of this truck, it is important to me that I make the following declaration: 1) I have no financial or other interest in Dave Smith Motors or in Daimler Chrysler Corp; 2) I have absolutely no brand loyalties in trucks or pretty much anything else. I always purchase what I believe is the best overall "deal" for me at any given time; 3) I test drove a GMC/Duramax/Alisson about 2 years ago and was very much impressed with the power, handling, ride, fit and finish of that truck; 4) My current vehicle is a '96 Chevy, Ext Cab, C2500 w/ Auto Trans and 5700 Vortec engine. My Chevy has been a great and inexpensive vehicle to run. It has been reliable and essentially maintenance free these last 6.75 years; Currently has 83,000 miles; 5) I have little or no interest in "Juicing" or otherwise modifying any new vehicle to go faster than the law currently allows. "Stock" is good enough for me, although I might add a new stereo(unless it comes with a Bose system already) and I will have a "spray-in" liner(probably Rhino, as in my current Chevy) applied to the bed.

Having said all of the above, here is my impression of the new Dodge 3/4 ton 4WD: It looks like all other Dodge Trucks. There may have been some small modifications to the outside but it still looks like a Dodge. Some like it, some don't. I think it looks okay. I have not yet decided whether I like the look of the new four door configuration. Size wise, the interior appears to be somewhere between the size of my extra cab Chevy and the Chevy Crew Cab. I am six feet and 200lb and ride okay(not good)in the back seat of the Dodge. I could use a little more leg room. The interior of the Dodge is very nice and all controls on the dash are intuitive and conveniently within reach. The cloth, bucket-like seats were most comfortable. There was ample and comfortable leg room for my 6' frame. I could do without the white background gauges but white or black is not a big deal. Like all new trucks, the body was tight and quiet(no rattles, squeeks or clunks) on a very rough road Dave Smith uses just for these kinds of "ride" trials. There were no obvious air leaks around the windows or four doors. The ride was "solid" without being rough. The wheels seemed to want to stay on the ground all the time instead of bouncing sideways when on the rough road in tight corners(that's as good as I can do in describing the ride). The interior of the cab was very quiet at 80mph on the Interstate. Couldn't hear the engine, fan or any outside air noises. I was much impressed with the ride of the vehicle and absence of outside noises. The 6 speed manual transmission was a joy to shift. I havn't "driven" a manual transmission in about 20 years and missed only one shift today(I went from sixth to third when I wanted to go from sixth to fifth gear). The shift pattern was a little tight but I got used to it very quickly. There were no shakes, grinding, thunking or clunking when shifting-just smooth, effortless shifting. I had a blast. The clutch was likewise a joy to use; It is probably the best feeling clutch I have EVER used(I know this is a strong statement, and it is not an exaggeration). It depresses very easily and when engaging, it is "easy" and smooth. One does not feel like he is engaging 555 ft.lbs of torque. The feel of the accelerator pedal is quite natural; neither too hard nor too soft. The engine's response to the accelerator is immediate and directly proportional to the pedal effort. There is no hesitation and no "flat" spot in the engine's response curve. There was no waiting for the turbo to wind up (I have read about "turbo wind-up" in some Diesel engines and know what the effect is but do not know what causes that effect). The more "gas" you give the Cummins the faster it goes. There are no unwanted surprises when giving it "the gas".

Dodge has gone to a newer recirculating ball steering system and it feels a little more sensitive than my Chevy. I think I might like the Dodge feel better than my Chevy feel. The Dodge turns in a very small circle. The salesman told me it is now the smallest circle in the industry for similiar trucks. I believe him, even without having driven the "similar" trucks. The engine compartment is neatly organized and looks good. The Cummins appears to have cylinders 4,5 and 6 under the dash cowling so working on these three cylinders after the warranty expires could be pretty expensive. I did not look for the location of the fuel or oil filters to determine how easy or difficult they might be to change.

This new Dodge also has four wheel ABS disc brakes and they are massive units. I do not know how they compare in size to those in the Chevy/GMC heavy Duty 3/4 ton vehicles, but these units are very large and stout. Today's truck had a 9,000 lb GVWR. I do not know its towing capacity with the 3.73 rear axle. Suffice it to say these brakes stop the truck very quickly and confidently.

Now, the new Cummins Diesel. This is the High Output(HO) version of their Diesel. It has a published 305 hp and 555 ft.lb of torque. Is it faster than the Duramax? Does it pull better than the Duramax? Heck, I do not know or care. But this is one heck of a powerful, quiet Diesel engine. Is it as quiet as the Duramax? Again, I do not know(have not seen sound level "db" readings for either engine). Nor do I care. They are both very quiet for Diesel engines. I do know the salesman and I could carry on a normal conversation standing three feet from the truck with the engine running and the engine compartment open. It appeared to be a little louder than my 5700 Vortec in the same situation.

Overall, my impression of this 2003 Dodge 3/4 ton, 4WD is obviously very positive. We can nit-pick some of the interior and exterior designs and appointments and argue our preferences. I'll agree to that with most vehicles. The ride of this new Dodge truck is excellent. The drive train is smooth, effortless and quiet. The engine is smooth, quiet and strong. I believe Dodge has a winner on its hands. Because I have a "gimpy" left leg, getting into and out of the truck is an important consideration in any purchasing decision. This new Dodge truck appears to be an inch or two closer to the ground than in previous years. Could be my imagination but it seems easier to get in and out of this Dodge than the ones from the last two or three years.

I will purchase a new pickup in the next year or so. The only two contenders today are Chevy/GMC and Dodge.

None of this opinion should be interpreted as a criticism of any other vehicle(s). I did not intend to compare vehicles. I am just offering my opinion of this new 2003 Dodge w/Cummins Diesel, based on a mix of rough-road and Interstate driving conditions today.

Best Wishes,

JohnM

Member #2049

[ 09-14-2002: Message edited by: JohnM ]</p>

[Chris N5CWM]

Great post, John!

I too have driven many Chevy and GMC 2500HD
Duramax/Allison trucks, and one with the ZF
six speed. I drove a 2003 Dodge Ram with the
standard Cummins 250 HP/460 Ft Lbs. and 5
speed manual. Yes it did have the new common
rail fuel injection. Very quiet for a Cummins.
I have yet to drive the HO/6 speed.

If I were looking for a new truck right now,
it'd be a tough decision between a 2003 GMC
2500HD or the new Dodge with the HO Cummins.

I've only had my 2001 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 for a
little over a year now (Cummins & 5 speed manual)
so I'm not ready to trade yet.

-Chris ;)

[hoot]

Excellent review.

If I were to have to choose between GM Dodge and Ford, it would be a long process.

I definately like the GM body/interior better than the Dodge. I like the SuperDuty body alot too.

I don't believe power is even an issue anymore. They all have plenty. It's more drivetrain behind the engine and how reliable they are.

Right now I still really like my D/A after driving it 35,500 miles.

[JohnM]

Chris and hoot, you are both very right: I believe I will have a devil of a time making a decision when it comes to purchasing one of the newer Diesels. My decision might come down to a simple $4.00 driver assist handle which allows me to get into the Dodge and Ford much easier than I can get into the Chevy/GMC. Isn't that a strange situation! An insignificant $4.00 item determining which $42,000 truck I will purchase.

Follow-up to my above post re: Driving the new 2003 Dodge Quad Cab with Cummins High Output (HO) Diesel and 6 speed NV Transmission. Returned to Dave Smith Motors in Kellogg, Idaho today. My intention was to "hang out" a little(and get a free lunch) and crawl under the Dodge trucks to see what was going on down below. Also had another chance to sit in a Laramie Edition package with 40/20/40 Leather seats(I sat in the seats before I started crawling around under the trucks). The leather seats are very solid and comfortable with excellent hip, thigh and lumbar support. They remind me of the Rocaros(sp) I sat in many years ago. My current Chevy has cloth seats and they have been wonderful. But, I am certain my next pickup(probably within a year) will have leather. In reconsidering the white faced gauges on the Dodge, I now believe I like them more than the darker gauges on my current Chevy. Do I like them because they look better or just because they are new and different? I do not know. Perhaps, as I get older, the contrast between the red indicator arms and white faced dials provides better contrast for my possibly fadding vision.

While checking the Dodge's undercarriage and driving gear, I found the oil filter but didn't find the fuel filter because I was not too certain where to look. And, I was already getting pretty dirty crawling around under the truck.(I have the feeling some of the other customers thought I was kind of weird crawling around under there. Some of these people also had young children with them and a couple of the boys asked their fathers if they could "play under the truck too"? I'm afraid I may have set a little bit of a bad example for the young'uns). The oil filter is on the passenger side of the Cummins, up high, near the head and behind and under the rubber boot/tube connecting the air intake box? to the turbo? It seems there are only two ways to change this filter: 1)From below, with a long extension and a special filter socket made just for this purpose; 2)It looks like it is possible to remove the rubber boot connecting the air filter box? to the turbo? and change the oil filter from above. A little experience will determine the better method. Either way, it appears that changing the oil filter is going to be a real "fun" time.

The new (13.9" front and rear) four wheel disc brakes on the Heavy Duty Dodge trucks are massive units. The new 17" Dodge wheels clear the disc brake calipers by about 3/8" to 1/2". Will flying rocks and other road debris have a tendency to lodge, even momentarily, between the caliper and the wheel? For comparison purposes only and I am not suggesting one is better than the other, the Chevy/GMC 2500 HD trucks for 2003 have 12.8" discs in the front and 13.0" discs at the rear. Does "bigger" mean "better"? Heck, I don't know. Time, miles, and repair records will tell if one is better than the other. Dodge has dropped axles from Dana is now using using front and rear axles by American Axle. Is this the same axle used by the Chevy/GMC 2500 HD series trucks? Look as I might, I could not find a drain plug for the rear axle lube on this Dodge. It appears that the only way to change the rear axle lube is to remove the axle cover plate. Perhaps Dodge's maintenance schedule requires few axle lube changes. While inspecting the undercarriage, it became apparent to me that all visible frame members, drive train components, and suspension parts are quite stout and should easily handle the heavy duty towing and "Job Rated" work these trucks are designed for.

Automatic Transmission: An automatic transmission for the High Output(HO) Cummins is not yet available. Current thought is that Dodge will be coming out with a new Automatic Transmission, the 48RE, for the HO Cummins during this January. The new 48RE is an updated and stronger version of their 47RE, and is being designed to handle the 555lb of torque generated by the Cummins HO Diesel. I have been unable to determine whether this newer transmission will be four or five speed; or any other transmission details for that matter.

Warranty: Dodge gives a 3 years/36,000 miles, Bumper to Bumper warranty on the entire vehicle (with the usual exclusions for windshield wipers, etc). The Cummins Diesel has a warranty of 5 years/100,000 miles and the remainder of the drive train has a warranty of 7 years/70,000 miles.

Again, I must repeat, I have no brand loyalties in trucks or anything else. I always purchase what best fills MY current and future needs at the time of purchase. Again, I am not suggesting that any one vehicle is better than another(because we all know that all manufacturers have a problem or two with new and "tried" vehicles). I am trying to provide as much info as I can, as much to satisfy my own interests, as to provide factual data and personal opinions/reactions for others, who might not have a chance to see the vehicles for quite a while.

Isn't it remarkable how much one can learn while crawling around under a new pickup in the middle of parking lot? The blacktop parking lot was recently re-coated and I hope some of these black stains come out.

Best Wishes to all!

JohnM

Member #2049

[ 09-14-2002: Message edited by: JohnM ]</p>

[Chris N5CWM]

The Cummins oil filter is not difficult to change.
Easiest way is to remove the rubber air inlet from
the airbox to the turbo. On my 2001, there are quick
release snaps on the airbox, and a nut driver is
needed to loosen the clamp at the turbo. Then use
a large 1 gallon ZipLock bag to catch any oil
(usually none) that might drip when you remove the
filter. Nice thing about the design is the upright
mounting of the filter. I pre-fill my filter with
oil before I re-install it. That way the oil
pressure does not take so long to rise. With a dry
filter, the oil has to fill the filter before going
to the bearings! The Cummins filter easily holds a
quart of oil.

The fuel filter is on the drivers' side of the
block under a large black cap. Easy to change.
Just make sure to purge any air out before starting
by turning on the ignition key to RUN so the fuel
lift pump runs a few seconds. Do this about 5 times
I believe. I have not changed my fuel filter in
a while so I cannot remember exactly.

As for the drain plug being ommited in the Dodge
axles, if that is the case, then Mag Hytec will
get a lot more Dodge business!

[Chris N5CWM]

Here is a pic showing the location of the fuel
filter on the new Common Rail ISB-E.

http://home.insightbb.com/~the4werks/images/fuel_rail_filter.JPG

After looking at some pics of the new engine's oil
filter setup, GEEZ it does look like a PITA to
change. Not the case with my 2001.

Here are the rest of the pics. (Not my website).

http://home.insightbb.com/~the4werks/photo.htm

[JohnM]

Chris, Thanks for the info on both filters and the pics. I think your recommendation to remove the air filter tunnel and replace the oil filter from above will probably end up being the preferred choice. I have never heard or thought of the one gallon baggie to catch dripping oil. Heck of a good idea!

It is probably quite obvious that I am very interested in the 2003 Dodge Ram with Cummins HO Diesel w/Automatic. I am trying to approach both the Dodge 2500 HD, Cummins HO/48RE and the Chevy/GMC 2500 HD, Duramax/Allison with an open mind toward each. This same open mind approach might apply to the new Ford G2, 6.0 Diesel with their new automatic trans, when it appears some time in - October? This new competition between the top three is giving consumers lots of great choices in vehicles. The track record of the Cummins, my intuition that the Cummins is the most economical(six cyls should burn less fuel than 8 cyls), the new brakes and auto trans in Dodge, and the driver assist door handles in the Dodge all lead me in Dodge's direction. However, I will have to drive the new Ford and renew my acquaintance with the Chevy/GMC, D/A before I make a final decision. Whichever vehicle I choose, I know I'll be getting a good one!

Best Wishes,

JohnM

[ 09-15-2002: Message edited by: JohnM ]</p>

[Chris N5CWM]

John there is a whole forum dedicated to the 3G
(2003 3rd generation) Rams at the TDR site.

You probably already know about it but just in
case you aren't aware here is the URL:


http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=39

[Rebel_Horseman]

The Auto behind the HO Cummins will be a 4-spped...hence the 48RE. The 4 is for the number of gears, the 8 dictates the amount of poweer the unit will handle (the higher the number, the stronger it is), and the E is for electronicly controlled. I'm not sure what the R is for. Got all of this info from the TDR a while back. I'm still not all that confident in Dodge autos. I have read that Dodge actually has to depower the Cummins at low RPM's so as not to put too much torque through the TC. Maybe some of the Dodge guys floating out there can confirm.

Reb [&gt;&lt;]

[JohnM]

Chris, Great looking blue Yukon. Thanks for the link to TDR. I joined the TDR yesterday with the hope that receiving their quarterly magazine will provide me with needed info as I approach my new-vehicle purchase date(probably about this time next year. This timeline is subject to change). One day I seem to prefer the Dodge; the next day, the GMC/Chevy. Perhaps the GMC/Chevy will have one of those $4.00 Driver Assist Handles available by the time I am ready to purchase. It's funny, but the Ford always seems to run a distant third in my mind. Ford makes a darned good truck but apparently I feel it will not suit MY current needs.

Rebel, Thanks for the info on the to-be new Dodge 48RE. Perhaps one of the reasons I am putting off my purchase decision is to see how owners react to the Cummins HO/48RE combination.

Hopefully, I will be more decisive when it is time to purchase the new pickup.

John

[ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: JohnM ]</p>