No Start, Cold weather only

[twaddle]

Went out this morning, outside temperature around -4, Engine turned over OK but would not fire up.

Had to eventually put the battery charger on and place the workshop heater at the front of the truck to blow some hot air and defrost it.

I had the same situation several times last winter but couldn't find the cause. It hasn't given any trouble since last winter.
I reckoned there was a main relay somewhere that feeds Injection pump, glow plugs etc not operating in cold ambient temperatures.
The PMD was replaced in April with a Sol-D unit.

Surely someone has had the same symptoms and can shine some light on the cause.

Dennis22 was having similar trouble if I remember but I don't know if he found the cause?

Any help from you guys in the colder parts of the US or Canada or anyone who knows the electrical circuit well enough to pinpoint the fault.

In the GM manual I seem to remember something about a main feed relay in or at the PCM?
If there is, can this relay be replaced?

Regards

Jim Twaddle
Biggar, Scotland

[5.7L oldsdiesel]

If the glow plugs or light won't operate,check the 10 amp fuse under the hood.The connector upon the controller can sometimes experience a poor connection.

Some guys unplug the coolant temperature sensor to get extended glow time during cold starts.

[Hubert]

How old is it and overall condition?

(I assume thats -4C degrees) That is approaching the temperature to plug in the block heater (~23F). It will still crank with no plug in down close to zero F but its better to plug it in.

What all have you checked so far?
First verify glow plugs are getting power. I made up a set of long leads for my digital multi meter and sat in truck to verify power to #1 cylinder glow plug ( or other easy to get to plug) while wait to start light on. Next look for any wire breaks to all glows. Over ~ 45 degrees F if 3 or 4 are working then it will crank but below freezing all need to work to help balance cold combustion. Next you can ohm test them individually to see if they are good. Search other posts but there is a spec. If wires and the fuse is good then look at the main relay/controller. It should be on the back firewall you should be able to follow wires back to it. From what I understand the ECM reads the coolant temp to set the glow time but the glow plug controller does the work to mechanically time and power the glow plugs.

Other tips:
Most recommend using synthetic oil in the cold and make sure batteries are good and strong. It needs to really spin over fast to crank at low temps. Use a good fuel additive. You can also let it cycle through 2 or three wait to start lights before cranking.

[ 11-14-2005, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Hubert ]

[twaddle]

Truck is a 96 K1500 Suburban, in Excellent condition, 140,000 miles on it and I'm using fully synthetic engine oil.

When this problem occurs it has only been during last winter and now this winter has started it is going to do the same when the temp drops to around -4 degrees.

It is as if the main feed to the Fuel lift pump, glow plug and fuel injection pump all go dead. Engine turns over freely but no start.
No codes appear after this happens

I will check the 10 amp fuse as suggested earlier.

Unfortunately the temperatures vary so much from day to day over here in Scotland that the fault does not happen everyday so is very difficult to diagnose when so intermittant.

I had hoped that someone has had the exact same problem during frosty mornings and had found the cure.

Regards

Jim Twaddle
Biggar, Scotland

[tom.mcinerney]

-May want to replace/reseat fuse to ECM1/ECMA/ECMB (something like that!).

Generally cold starting is a revealing challenge for diesels, and the 6.5Ls start very well. In the vicinity of 25*F it becomes necessary to have fuel that 1) will fire up , and 2) won't clog/gell/wax the filter. Usually the thing will start , but not run (crystallized fuel clogged filter). Substantial amounts of routine lubricity additives or a bit of an additive specifically designed for (pour point depressant/cold starting) become necessary ... unless the supplier has treated it in bulk previously. Early season freezes are problemmatic , as most distrbution tanks haven't been treated.

The best test for the glow plugs is to have a current meter in series with each, one at a time. The connections from harness to plug deteriorate. Sometimes the glow control relay goes down , i don't know if they develop hi resistance. Only a little resistance will foil the plugs when cold.

[ 11-14-2005, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: tom mac 95 ]

[Marty Lau]

Jim;

If you have the orginal Glow Plugs could be that several are gone or weak. I would replace them with some Quick Heats and extend your glow time and life should be good. With Synthetic oil in my truck and Quick heat glow plugs and glow plug override I can start with no problem down to about -15 C or zero F and not plug it in. It will start at lower temps but I try and plug it in to make it easier on the truck and have heat quicker. Started this morning it was about -8 C and I just pushed the button on the over ride for about an extra 6 seconds of glow time and she started right up.

[twaddle]

Weather forecast for tonight reckons the temps should drop to around -5 degrees.
I'm hoping that the Sub won't start long enough for me to do some checking with the multi meter in the morning.

Jim Twaddle
Biggar, Scotland

[HudB1]

I've had the same problems only not nearly as cold outside, usally around 40F overnight. There is no intial start up sequence. However if I leave the key in the on postion for around 3 minutes or so the sequence starts and the motor fires no problems rest of the day. Its almost like there is moisture on a connection and the voltage either dries it out or warms it up. I did a have sucess however when I pulled every connection under the hood cleaned with contact cleaner and then applied dilectric gease to all connections. Plus pulled all grounds and cleaned them, I also added additional grounds. I used 0 gauge between the batteries and intake plus one frm the block to the chassis and indtalled a 10g at the rt rear block connection. Didn't have a problem for almost 2 yr but its back again so I going to clean again, also going to try a temp sensor on the intake. Good Luck hope this helps I feel your frustration. Post it if you get it fixed.
I intially replaced the glow plug relay no difference. Never replaced glow plugs or anything else, everything works fine after the intial start up.

[HudB1]

Hoot man Hoot
Well it happened again, cold soaked overnight about 40 (florida cold) so I chased everything under the hood reset the computer, still no start sequence. I plugged in block heater for an hour nothing. Finally put a hair dryer on the computer and bang the start sequence came up and started up fine. I'm going to order a computer today so I'll keep you posted. Hope this helps you or anyone else.
HudB1

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

[i]

[Kennedy]

Originally posted by twaddle:
Went out this morning, outside temperature around -4, Engine turned over OK but would not fire up.

Had to eventually put the battery charger on and place the workshop heater at the front of the truck to blow some hot air and defrost it.

The PMD was replaced in April with a Sol-D unit.

Surely someone has had the same symptoms and can shine some light on the cause.

Dennis22 was having similar trouble if I remember but I don't know if he found the cause?

Any help from you guys in the colder parts of the US or Canada or anyone who knows the electrical circuit well enough to pinpoint the fault.

In the GM manual I seem to remember something about a main feed relay in or at the PCM?
If there is, can this relay be replaced?

Regards

Jim Twaddle
Biggar, Scotland If the voltage drop is too great, the SOL-D will not attempt to fire the pump. I've heard from a reliable source that had a situation where the engine turned over decent, but the batteries were not absolutely fully charged and voltage was dropping. The SOL-D would not fire. Without charging the batteries, he plugged in a Stanadyne PMD and the truck started...

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

I was right - I did read that somewhere. Maybe a search on "Sol-D" would provide more info.

Blessings!

[twaddle]

Hi Guys, sorry for not getting back with more info sooner, I've been busy with work and with Christmas round the corner have to take the work when it's available. The joys of being self employed.

16th NOV (my previous post). "Weather forecast for tonight reckons the temps should drop to around -5 degrees.
checking with the multi meter in the morning."

17th Nov, Well it did drop to -5, switch on ignition , glow plug light on OK, engine sounded like it tried to fire on one cylinder for a split second then nothing, just turning over, no smoke, nothing.
Switched ignition off and try again after a couple of minutes. This time no glow plug light and no start. The glow plug light would also on occasions flash when it should stay on, again no start. (could be faulty glow plug relay)
The engine was turning over fast enough when trying to fire it up. Checked voltages at glow plug & ECM fuses, all getting high 12 to 13 volts
This varied and intermittant behaviour has never happened before. ??????

The fuel lift pump could be heard buzzing every time the ignition was switched on.

I removed the glow plug relay, sprayed the contact blades that push into the fuse/relay tray with electrical contact cleaner. still no start.
After several attemps I figured that the voltage could be low enough that it ain't going to start as the Sol-D won't operate below 9V. Remove Sol-d, connect up an old Stanadyne FSD, guess what? it fires up.
Reconnect the Sol-D, No start.
Connect up Battery charger.

Removed and cleaned all engine/fuel/glow plug/ECM and ignition fuses with emery paper, sprayed with electrical contact cleaner.
Also removed, disconnected PCM multiplugs, sprayed with cleaner, reinstalled. Also found battery acid level low in a couple of cells in the passenger side battery, topped them up.
Now firing up OK even with Sol-D.

18th Nov. Temperature -8 this morning, with the Sol-d connected engine fires up no problem.

I am trying not to use the Suburban to see if the battery voltage will drop on frosty mornings and the "no start" will show again since cleaning the fuse and PCM multiplug contacts.

When I had the same trouble last winter I had the same batteries as now and the Stanadyne FSD was in place. The no start would appear on frosty mornings even after driving for 3 hours the night before which would have fully charged the batteries.

At the moment I am hoping that the colder temperature will return so I can retest it again as I am not confident that I have cured the fault.

I agree with you John that if the Battery voltage drops low enough a no starting situation with a Sol-D FSD could or would occur.
This does worry me slightly and I still carry a Stanadyne FSD along with the usual array of 6.5 spare parts. I'm sure you'll remember this from the pre Duramax days John?

As yet I cannot establish if the no start problem is cured by cleaning the fuse contacts etc.
I'll have to wait for another snap of the colder weather. On the morning the temperature dropped tp -8 I really did not expect the truck to fire up at all.

As they say... "watch this space"

Many thanks for the input and help from everybody.

Regards

Jim Twaddle
Biggar, Scotland

[twaddle]

This morning (Friday 25th Nov) Temperature around Zero but the wind chill makes it feel colder.

Turn on ignition, glow plug light on (good) turn over engine, No start, (Not so Good).
Tried several times but no start. Each time I was trying to start the engine the glow plug cycle would operate as it should.

Check voltage of the batteries with one of them disconnected so I could get each batteries correct voltage, 12.2 volts, This is after several attemps at starting and the starter is getting a bit slow now. A multimeter was used at this point rather than the vehicle voltmeter.
Reconnect battery and check voltage while trying to start engine. Now dropping back to 8.8 volts

Disconnect the Sol-D unit and connect up the OLD FSD unit that I used the other day, Still no start.
Voltage dropped back to around 8.8 volts.

Connect another newer spare FSD , Turn ignition on voltage drops from 12.1 to 10.8 volts then down to 8.8 when turning over to start,engine turning a bit on the slow side, surprise surprise It fired up and ran as sweet as you like.

I think I have a different not starting fault compared to last winter or even last week.
On those occasions the glow plug light and fuel lift pump showed no sign of life followed by no start. I always found that as soon as these symptoms showed The truck would not fire up. Sometimes it would eventually fire up other times it would fire up later in the morning when the ambient temperature warms up a little.

I may have cured (hopefully) the no glow plug fault by cleaning the fuse and multiplug contacts.
However I think I have a battery/voltage drop problem which the Sol-D can't cope with, so I will get a couple of new batteries.

It's around mid day here in Biggar, Scotland and there is now about 3-4 inches of snow outside that wasn't there this morning.

I'll just go and fire up the Suburban as the kids school has closed early due to the bad weather.

Regards

Jim
(snowy) Biggar,Scotland

[tom.mcinerney]

Thanks, Jim.
This is a revealing thread...and promises to continue so, at least until the fresh batteries meet low winter temps! Oh, and wishing success--

[Dennis22]

Great thread, great info. Jim and I have the same truck, and have been experiancing the same problem for well over a year now. My stall situation also does not happen until the weather gets cold. I rarely have the situation where it will not start first thing in the morning though. Mine usually stalls going down the road. When I go to re-start, if I do not get at least a blink from the glow plug light it will not start. I keep cycling the key, when I get a flash from the glow plug light it will start, everytime. If it was a loose conection,or dirty terminals why does it not happen during the warm months? I also have replaced both batteries,all ground wires, glow plug controller and glow plugs within the last year.
Great thread, keep the ideas coming!!
Dennis

[rjschoolcraft]

I had two "no-starts" with the SOL-D over the weekend. First was Thursday morning in Whitewater, WI (about 12F outside). Kids had left the inverter on all night and batteries were down some. No fire at all. Unplugged the SOL-D and plugged in my Stanadyne FSD on the Beta cooler and fired right up, still cranking slowly. Ran for a while then I shut it down and reconnected the SOL-D. Started fine.

Sat overnight, and Friday morning no start. Around 22F. Unplugged SOL-D, plugged in Stanadyne FSD...fired right up. Drove home today on the Stanadyne FSD. Will try the SOL-D again, now that I'm home, but didn't feel comfortable with it on the road.

[twaddle]

Dennis,
Are you getting the stalling almost as soon as you pull away in the morning, fairly soon after or anytime while on the move.

I would suggest try giving the fuse contacts a rub with emery paper. my fuses looked ok with no burnt areas but did have a dirty oxidised look. I am hoping that this has cured that earlier no start/glow plug/stalling fault.

My Suburban was doing the exact same thing earlier this year and it was generally when the engine was well warmed and several miles into the journey.
If the glow plug light didn't come on I would know that the truck would not start, I also noticed that the fuel lift pump could not be heard buzzing.

Here's a copy of part of an email I sent you back in April.......
"The sub has been stalling (intermittently) more in the last few months followed by no glow plug light (are you still getting the no glow plugs now and
>>again).
>>> I had noticed that when the glow plugs wouldn't operate the lift pump
>>would not
>>> buzz. This is lack of power which I don't think is an FSD fault.
>>>
>>> I have also found that on cold mornings (-4 or lower) that the engine
>>would not
>>> fire up, again no glow plug light or fuel lift pump.
>>>
>>> If I remove the fuel pump relay located at the fuse box on the
>>> left hand fender, I've found that if I connect terminals 30 and 87 using
>>> a
>>short
>>> piece of electrical wire with the ends bared, I then hear relays
>>> clicking
>>and
>>> the lift pump powering up, leave the wire in place, turn on the ignition
>>and the
>>> engine fires right up. Put the relay back in place.
>>> I've used this trick to get going when the truck stalled and wouldn't
>>restart a couple of weeks ago."

This spell of stalling that I had experienced was before I installed the Sol-D and when trying the wire at 30 and 87 the glow plugs also worked ok as well.
I would suggest that you get a short piece of wire at the ready, it may get you started quicker.

I don't think the Sol-D cured this stalling, the warmer weather came along and I have only had one occasion of stalling which fired up while on the move.

Ronniejoe,
I have emailed Chris at Sol-D expressing my concern that the voltage requirement of 9V leaves very little tolorence for real life situations and also pointing out that a vehicle sitting in cold conditions can have a voltage drop even with good batteries, also the extra load that a "heavy cold" Starter motor can put on the system on a frosty morning can easily result in a voltage drop down around the 9V when turning the engine over.

Yesterday I connected up the multimeter to the batteries before starting, ambiant temp +2 degrees C but felt colder with the snow and windchill, 12.6V, dropped to 11.1V ign on and powering glow plugs, dropped to 9.6 when turning over and did fire up.
I think that had the ambiant temp been lower by just a few degrees that the voltage drop would have been just under the 9V which would have resulted in a "No start" situation.

The other day when my truck wouldn't fire up with the sol-D the engine was turning over very slowly due to several attemps at starting and when I reconnected the Stanadyne unit I really did not expect it to fire up, battery voltage dropped to 8.8V and it did fire up.

Good luck

Jim
Biggar, Scotland

[Dennis22]

Jim, Thanks for reminding me of that tip with the wire. I do have one in the glove box. I will clean the contacts of the fuse. Thanks for your help, nock on wood it has not stalled yet this season. Maybe last year when I looked at that fuse I cleaned the contact, because I have been good since.
Dennis

[twaddle]

I had the Suburbans batteries checked, apparently they were down in performance by around 15 - 20%.

I've just installed 2 new batteries tonight so I'll let you all know how I get on with the cold weather starting and the Sol-D as soon as the frosts return.

The glow plug and lift pump circuits seem to be operating better now after cleaning fuse and ECM connections.

Regards

Jim Twaddle
Biggar, Scotland

[rjwest]

May want to do the battery cable fix to insure
best possible contacts, the GM sandwich connections
tend to cause resistence as they age,

Removal of the plastic around the connections .Stainless bolts with nuts for tighting the cables.

[twaddle]

Thanks rjwest,
The batteries are the top post type and I ran extra grounds and also a HD ground cable linking the two batteries together rather than relying on a link via the engine over three years back when I had my first taste of stalling.

Regards

Jim Twaddle
Biggar, Scotland