What to do for really freakin cold weather...

[HDMXDiesel0817]

Alright all,

I have a question well some questions; what do we do when it is several degrees below zero here? I was out talking to some drivers when I was at the Pilot this morning looking at more additive and the PS 911 and they are having probs too, even with the heaters and additive, it's still gelling. DOH!!!

How can we keep the fuel in liquid form while sitting over night. I for one have no desire to wake up every 3 hours to run the truck when it gets this cold. AND I know about the fuel additives but it will still gel. Let's see if we can come together and come up with a way to keep the fuel liquid from tank to engine and back to the tank (and all other places). There must be a way to keep it heated or warmed. I'm not saying at 70 but above the 20 or even the 0 mark on the thermometer. Say wrapping the fuel lines with an electrial heating element, something that will not pull a lot of current and won't drain batteries for extended periods of time.

For instance we have an engine block heater, this does not keep the fuel warm, but it keeps other vital fluids warm. Perhaps we can tap into this when we plug in our trucks at night (for those of us that don't park them in the garage, or don't have a garage) so not only will the engine block heater cord run the engine block heater but the heating elements around the fuel lines and tank.

How much current does the block heater draw by the way? Like if we added a third battery or something to run it for say 48 hours or so while at work (on the big road).

Well I've thrown it out there, I'm sure that we can figure something out here if some of you haven't already and I missed it somewheres. I would appreciate any input you may have.

[ 01-10-2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: HDMXDiesel0817 ]

[needbigtruck]

Hi HDMXDiesel0817 from just north of you on lake Ontario. It has been cold here too. The Truck is good to start with NO starting aids down to 20 degrees below zero. All diesel sold north of say, Virginia, should be a winter blend, and therefore not prone to gelling. My truck sat out all night and it was -5 degrees this morning when I started it and it started just fine. I do not use the block heater, waste of money IMHO. I believe they are 1000W heaters, but that's at 120V house voltage. You can't run the block heater from your batteries.

[HDMXDiesel0817]

Needbigtruck,

I have not used additives either, however I must rethink this or at least where I have been purchasing my fuel.

Two days ago it was -5 here as well and truck started up fine. Apparently the mobil truck stop does not blend their fuel, or at least well enough cause it gelled up on me last night about -11 or so at time of Gelling. Had a lil more than half yesterday afternoon and was like hey don't want water build up, so I pumped in about 13 gallons. Always fuel up there just through the woods and over the river. So last night...I get a little hiccup in my acceleration, cough cough...followed by uhoh. :(

All is good now. And truck runs just as good as new. Just won't wait as long as I did for that again...time to keep the additive from Nov - Mar. Poodoo

[stutzismydog]

Move to California,....Problem solved

[62dog]

I'm using Sunoco Gold Diesel with no additives, actually Sunoco already adds it to the fuel.
Case in piont: truck was sitting 6 days not pluged in, this moring I could not start the 85 so I started the duramax to go to work -34C(-30F). It was a hard start but thats to be expected :D

[jbplock]

Originally posted by HDMXDiesel0817:
...I have not used additives either, however I must rethink this ...Jon,

Sorry to hear about your gelling problem ... Since we live just around the corner from each other I know how cold it was last night (-11 at my house too). I highly recommend that you start using a good additive. I have always used one here in upsate NY ever since I first started driving diesels in 85 and I've never had fuel gel (knock on wood). Wrapping the fuel lines won't hurt but the place that plugs is the filter. When the fuel gets cold wax crystals begin to form and free water can freeze. A good additive will lower the "cloud point" (the temp at which wax forms) and prevent any water in the fuel from freezing.
(If you need some additive in a hurry stop by and/or give me a call and I'll lend you some.)

smile.gif

[Big Tow]

I don't have any gelling problems up here in frigid northern MN. My trucks sit outside at night too. jbplock is correct about the filter being the problem area. That said, use the FULL cold front provided with the truck, plug it in if it is going to be below zero. There is enough heat in there to keep the filter from gelling. Make sure that you change the filter every 10-15k miles too. I would also ask around the local fuelling stations for a place that sells arctic diesel. This is a little more money but is supposed to give #2 performance without gelling problems. I have been running it in all of my trucks during the winter for many years without a problem. That includes two semi tractors that have no starting aids like glow plugs.

Good Luck!

[YZF1R]

For those of you that live in very cold areas I always wondered about making a cover for the fuel cooler on the return line back at the tank. The fuel may then still be warm enough to heat the fuel in the tank enough to keep it from gelling. I'm sure it would still cool off on the way back up to the filter enough not to be too hot to not cool the electronics, but just warm enough to keep filters from plugging. Take a piece of large (6" or so) black foam pipe insulation, cut twice as tall as the cooler, and just as wide. Fold it over or around the cooler and hold it in place with a strap or two of velcro.

Steve

[ryeguy]

Just came back from the Cdn prairies. One morning at about -20F, wind chill was below -40. Filled up on summer fuel (after driving for a half-hour or so) and the truck died after 150 yards. Took 2.5 days to get the truck running again - in the end it took some anti-gel, a new fuel filter, and about 2 hours under the truck with Mom's blow hair drier (really!) to thaw out that fuel cooler.

I've been in cold weather with this truck for 3 seasons now. This is the first time it froze up to me, and I attribute it to summer fuel going into an almost empty, really cold tank, combined with about an inch thick of ice all around that cooler. Next season (drive home for Xmas) I'll DEFINITELY be putting something around the fuel cooler.

--Rob

[Bellrule]

An old trucker once told me that if you have an engine that is gelled up or is too cold to start, you can put a pan of lit charcoal under it and heat it up. The radiant type heat without flames works well and fast!

[YZF1R]

Yep, that will work. A pile under the fuel tank. (Not under the fuel lines.) Another pile under the oil pan.

Note: This is for tractors. Not for plastic fuel tanks or oil pans coated with sound deadening material. ;)

Steve

[george morrison]

As has been previously mentioned, the base fuel is most likely the cause of the filter plugging problem encountered with the -40F temps. We have had a relatively warm winter to date here in the midwest and fuel vendors sometimes stretch summer grade a bit too far; reason: cost, greed, etc.... Blending/additizing for winter is expensive and many distributors wait until the last minute to go to winter blend/additization; sometimes too late.. Thus, if we purchase a summer grade fuel with a cloud point of +15/+20 degrees F, even with normal additization, it will begin to cloud at -15F to -20F.
And then we get the fuel distributor who hedges his bet and lightly treats/blends and the fuel clouds at 0 degrees F.. Even with normal additization, clouds at -30.. Thus when one encounters -40F, one needs to make certain the fuel used is indeed full winter blend and overtreat with winter fuel treatment . (no, it does not hurt to overtreat with additives such as Primrose 409; double dosing works just fine if one has to with no danger of over-treat)
George Morrison

[ 01-15-2004, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: george morrison ]

[Onebigcanuck]

I've been driving a Duramax for almost 4 years now
(2001 + 2003) and other than plugging it in at - 20F and putting on the top winter front I've had no problems. This includes many 400 mile trips at -40 at highway speeds. I know there are additives added at the refinery but that's it.

;)

[HDMXDiesel0817]

It's amazing how much feedback one gets when they make a foopah. It's great!!! :D

Bill, yea I have been running the additive each and every fillup since that incident. The other thing I can say is that PS911 was sweet. Saved my butt big time. That's the first and last time I hope to see my rig on top of a flatbed...almost didn't fit.

stutzismydog,
That's 1 of 9 states that I have not been to (yet), but I don't think I want to move that far west.

Big Tow,
The arctic diesel that you mention, would that be why the Pilot (not flying J) is nearly 20 cents higher than all the other fueling stations around here? For example: Mobil 1.65 and Hess 1.59

Bellrule,
That's really interesting, I may try it just for grins and giggles :D

Thanks everyone for your input. Boy this is fun!

[ 01-13-2004, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: HDMXDiesel0817 ]

[More Power]

The student book for the LB7 says this about cold weather operation and diesel fuel use.

"Pour point depressants tend not to have much effect on the cloud point of a fuel, which is the first stage of waxing. This is a condition to which #2D fuels are more prone than #1D. Fuel heaters allow the use of fuels at temperatures substantially below their cloud point. The heater is an electric heating element that uses battery current to heat fuel in the sub system..... This electric element fuel heater is thermostatically managed so that fuel is only heated as much as required and not to a point, which compromises some of its lubricating properties."

The 6.5L fuel filter heating element is designed to activate at temperatures of +20 or lower (approximate cloud point of summer blend #2D). The training material for the LLY indicates that the fuel heater activates at +46 degrees F. or lower.

MP

[Bellrule]

One other thing I have learned in a bind is that you can add some gas to Diesel in cold weather. I have never tried it and don't know how it would work on todays fuel systems. John Deere used to state in there operators manuals to add 1 gallon of gas per 20 gallons of diesel. I wouldn't try it just for fun but if I was in a bind...... Another thing is if you do get gelled up, you can put a new filter on that is full of straight power service and get things going again.

[NealM68]

I've been using performance formula from Diesel Injection Service with straight #2(according to the guys working at conoco) and haven't had any problems yet.

[OC_DMAX]

What to do for really freakin cold weather...

Move to SoCal ;) -- it was 56 deg F at 4:30AM this morning on the way to work. Got up to 78F.

Hope you guys get through the cold spell safely. smile.gif

[george morrison]

Regarding the use of gas or 'dry gas' in diesel. No, not never, ever in our Duramax engines!!!
A high quality winter fuel additive *will* work to free up even a severely clogged/frozen fuel filter. The classic case of the engine starting fine, runnning for 10 to 15 minutes; then the fuel filter cloggs with wax crystals from an improper winter blend or insufficient fuel additization. In those cases, if the engine will idle (which it will in 99% of cases), a double or triple dose of Primrose 409 will work through the system in a relatively short time of idling, and the system returns to normal.. I cannot speak for other additives but there is no problem with over-treating with Primrose 409.
It is definately better than a fuel filter change-out, hair driers, etc. . Plus the problem will have been solved rather than the sometimes temporary fix and then filter re-clog down the road in the middle of nowhere...
George Morrison

[Sierra467]

I am newbie to the diesel crowd ( my 1st ) and I am still learning. I bought a 2002 GMC 2500HD Duramax/Al. with 24000mi on December 24 - Happy xmas to me!

We live in Maine and for the past 4 days it has not been above -10. Other than starting hard, I have had no trouble until 2 days ago. My wife's car would not start so she took the truck to work (~25mi). She came home at around 4PM and the truck ran with out a problem.

When she got home she shut down the truck for about 10min until we got back in and headed north, getting on the highway. We ran about 2 miles and paid a toll.

About 200 yards out of the toll, the truck started to buck and cough. We pulled over and the truck idled well, so we headed off again. The truck would not get above 40 for about 2 miles and then did the same thing, but stalled.

Trying to get to the next exit, we restarted and limped under 10mph for another 2 miles before the truck would not restart or idle. We waited 2 hours in the -20 degree weather before a wrecker could get to us.

Now here are my questions:
I believe that we had ok fuel, because the station that I buy at is where most of the commercial trucks fill up (I suppose that it could have been a bad load of fuel).

I beleive now that it most likly that the fuel waxed the fuel filter. Would you agree? During the service, they told me that one of my batteries was dead and they replaced that, I told them while it was in, they ought to replace the fuel filter - not knowing what the previous owner had done.

What would fix that - the fuel additives that you speek of here? What ones should I buy? Do they have a shelf life? Can you put too much in? Can you store them in a truck box in the cold that I am talking about without causing an issue?

Would a grill cover help? I did not get one in the truck when I bought it, and the dealer can not seem to be able to get one for me, even if I am willing to buy it - why is that? If I should have one, what would any of you suggest that I look for?

I know that it is a lot of questions, but I would love any help you could suggest. Thanks in advance!

[Kennedy]

CFPP = Cold Filter Plug Point

From FPPF website:

Polar Power can offer the following benefits:

Contains Fuel Power.
Contains wax dispersant.
Lowers pour point.
Contains seed crystal modifier.
Lowers cold filter plug point.
Contains No Alcohols!


Total Power (used regularly) can offer the following benefits:

Contains Fuel Power.
Lowers CFPP.
Contains anti-gel.
Lowers pour point.
Cleans injectors.
Raises cetane.
Meets L-10.
Meets A.S.T.M. B.O.C.L.E.
Meets N-14.
Contains No Alcohols!


Personally, I chose Total Power due to the full spectrum coverage including cetane, detergent, lubricity, and corrosion inhibitor. If the going gets tough, add a little more. Just pennies per gallon, AND your fuel system will benefit from year round useage...

[jbplock]

Originally posted by Sierra467:
I am newbie to the diesel crowd ( my 1st ) and I am still learning. I bought a 2002 GMC 2500HD Duramax/Al. with 24000mi on December 24 - Happy xmas to me!

Now here are my questions: Sierra467,

Congratulations on your new ride! You have come to the right place to learn more about you truck … Lots of good info here and many nice folks willing to help…

Regarding your questions, here’s my $.02

…I believe now that it most likely that the fuel waxed the fuel filter. Would you agree?

Yes, given the outside temperature, your symptoms sound like a wax and/or iced plugged filter…

…During the service, they told me that one of my batteries was dead and they replaced that…

Did they try to charge the battery? Might have been OK but since you now have one new and one old battery, keep a close watch on both. In a dual battery system it’s best to replace both batteries at the same time to keep them balanced. When they are not balanced one can be overcharged and/or fail prematurely.

… I told them …to replace the fuel filter.

Wise move! You may also want to consider adding a second filter. The OEM filter is known to have marginal performance. A Duramax forum search on “fuel filter” will yield volumes of info. There are several good options.

…What would fix that - the fuel additives that you speak of here?…What ones should I buy?

Yes a good additive will defiantly help prevent “gelling” or “waxing” of the fuel as well as provide other benefits such as handling water and adding lubricity… A forum search on additives will also yield much info…
Basically there are two types of additives with regard to how they handle water – emulsifiers and demulsifiers. GM says “Only alcohol-free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors Diesel engines” (See Jan 04 GM Techlink article). (http://service.gm.com/gmtechlink/images/issues/apr03/TLApr03e.html#story1) Some other very smart people disagree and recommend emulsifiers. Best to do your homework and decide which is best for you. Popular emulsifier choices are FPPF and Primrose. Popular demulsifiers choices are Stanadyne Performance Formula and Racor Diesel Fuel additive. IMHO, any good additive is better than none.

… Do they have a shelf life?

Not sure about the shelf life but unless you buying it in very large quantities, I don’t think you have to worry about it. I bought a 5 gal pail a few years ago which is just about gone and It still works the same as new. It was 10 below here the other morning and I didn’t have any problems with waxing … I also get a boost in mileage and the engine runs smoother with the additive so I’m pretty sure its still working.

Can you put too much in?

Not as far as I know… Just follow the instructions on the bottle but it won’t hurt if you add a little more. I typically double my treatment in really cold weather or if I’m towing.
It’s also best to have the additive in the fuel before temps get cold enough to cause waxing. Also IMHO, it's best to use an additive year round - not just in the winter ...

Can you store them in a truck box in the cold that I am talking about without causing an issue?

I have a covered plastic box in the bed that I use to carry my spare fluids ( i.e. oil, tranny fluid, brake fluid, additive ..ect). Never had a problem with additive storage…

Would a grill cover help? … what would any of you suggest that I look for?


Yes… IMHO, a Maine winter would require a Grille cover. It will help the engine quickly warm up and maintain operating temp when outside temps are in the 30’s and below. I have a Stainless Steel Cloud- Rider (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001546) cover that works well. Lund also makes one for the 02 GMC’s.

Also, there is an article in the Jan04 GM Techlink regarding Winter Cover usage. (http://service.gm.com/gmtechlink/images/issues/cnt_mo/TLcme.html#story8)

Hope this helps… smile.gif

BTW, when the kids were younger we used to vacation in southern Maine (Wells Beach) every year with our 5th wheel. Very nice area! http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif (Now it’s too boring for my teenagers :rolleyes: ). However, the wife and I plan to resume the Maine vacations when the kids are grown and on their way… Maybe also bring the grandchildren :eek: (??) …

smile.gif

[Sierra467]

Thanks tons John and Bill! You both were extremly helpful and I appreciate all the great info and links.

I love my new (to me) truck and this site is invaluable. Maine is a wonderful place to live and if you find yourselves here vacationing don't only stop in Wells, try Bar Harbor or if you like the woods, the best is farther north smile.gif

Thanks again for the great info and such a fast response.

[Kennedy]

I keep my additive dispensing bottles (refilled to hold my Total Power/Cetane blend) in the bed of my truck. I use a couple of different methods of dispensing:

1) 1qt Sta-Bil bottle with graduated long neck squeeze up chamber.

2) 1 qt Marvel's Mystery oil bottle with long neck and graduations on the side every 4 oz.

2) 8 oz FPPF Fuel Power bottle filled with 4-8 oz to be used as a "one-shot"


Now bear in mind that what George and myself use (emulsifier) contradicts GM's advice, but experience has shown that demulsifiers do not work well in mobile tanks without drains. Experience also shows that free water can breed bacteria, and can settle out in the most harmful of places (pump and injectors) causing corrosive damage...


Here's my grille cover(s)

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/photogal/images/2002_chev_K2500.jpg

[jbplock]

Originally posted by Sierra467:
Thanks tons ... appreciate all the great info and links.

...don't only stop in Wells, try Bar Harbor or if you like the woods, the best is farther north ...
Craig,

Glad we can help!

Dittos on Bar harbor! :cool: On our last trip we parked our trailer in a nice campground just outside Bar Harbor with an awesome view of Frenchman's Bay. We spent time exploring Acadia National Park and Bar Harbor. Especially enjoyed the carriage trails in Acadia and Cadilac Mountain.
Southern Maine is nice too... I think our favorite there is walking the Marginal Way in Ogunquit (sp?) Lot's of other cool places too.. lighthouses, beaches, rocky coasts...can't wait to return.. smile.gif

[Sierra467]

John,
Now that I think of it, I have a Sta-Bil container - what a great idea.

Love the Grill Cover you have on your truck - GM product or after market? Wonder if they make one for a GMC like that - time to start looking harder.

Thanks again.

[Sierra467]

Have a brother that lives in Ellsworth and I worked in Acadia when I was in forestry school helping to maintain the carriage trails. We get there as often as we can - Beautiful spot for sure!

[jbplock]

Craig,

I believe John's cover is a Lund... smile.gif

[Sierra467]

Bill,

Thanks, I will check Lund out. Are they the same quality as the Cloud-Rider ones mentioned above. Is there a quality/availability difference?

Thanks,
Craig


Originally posted by jbplock:
Craig,

I believe John's cover is a Lund... smile.gif

[jbplock]

Craig,

I've never seen a Lund up close so I'm not sure if there are any differences. However, comparing John's picture above with mine (below), notice the cut-outs around the retainer screws - they look very similar. Could be they are made by the same OEM (cloud-rider). When I was looking for mine it seemed like the Lund was more readily available, but only for the 2001/02 trucks. The Cloud-Rider was the only one I could find for the 2003/04 style trucks. smile.gif

http://community.webshots.com/s/image1/5/80/5/103358005jJjteT_ph.jpg

[Kennedy]

Mine is Lund.

Twas -16

[mark45678]

JK and George M are 100% correct do not listen to any other storys that others have told about not useing additves below 18*f you would be a fool trusting your fuel depot to keep you on the road! I have had diesel truck since 93 and I got stuck for the first time in 11 years because I didnt read the lable on the can of stuff I was adding to the tank! If you MUST get to where you want to go use ANY anti gelling agent ! or just take your chances..... I know of 3 diffent truck hear in MA on a -10*f night that didnt run the next day because of fuel .... they all got fuel at differnt gas stations even diffent brands! It cost me 2 fuel filter and a 1/2 gal of anti gell and a days pay because of this ...... JK pionted out in a post to cover the fuel cooler ,I use a 11x7 note book page ,It fit right in really easy. Leave it idle and it will take some time but atleast your warm and running!

[Sierra467]

I have been looking for Cloud Rider and have not found one to buy from on line. I just wanted to get some more info on them before I decided on the Lund or the Cloud Rider.

Does anyone know of a Cloud Rider dealer I can look at on line or in person?

[Sierra467]

Mark45678,

I am not understanding the notebook paper comment. Can you elaborate? Also, where is the fuel cooler? (Sorry to be so ignorant :rolleyes: )

[Idle_Chatter]

Sierra467, no apologies necessary. The fuel cooler is a small black "radiator" (about 8x10") that cools return fuel going back to the tank. You'll find it above and forward of your fuel tank on the driver's side. Fuel is pulled from the tank by the suction produced in the injection pump. It flows forward along the inside of the frame rail on the driver's side in a stainless fuel line. when it reaches the fire wall, it goes up and flows through the Fuel Injection Control Module (FICM)on the driver's side valve cover (to cool the electronics package in the FICM). Then crosses over to the passenger side FICM before going through the fuel filter and into the pump. The pump contains two stages: low and high pressure. The low pressure stage pulls the supply vacuum and "feeds" the high pressure stage through the fuel pressure regulator. Fuel that the high pressure pump doesn't draw and excess released by the fuel pressure regulator is returned to the tank through another stainless line inside the frame rail. Since the fuel has picked up heat in the FICMs and pumping, the cooler is there to remove some of that heat before the fuel dumps back into the tank. There's also some injector bypass and cooling fuel returned from the common rails that has picked up pump and injector heat in the high pressure side added to the return fuel flow.

[AlanL]

What are the guidelines that people use for when you should restrict airflow to the fuel cooler and when you shouldn't?

For instance, I believe the general recommends use of the grill and bumper covers at 20 degrees (F) and lower, and explictly not at temps over 30 degrees.

Do the same relative numbers apply to the fuel cooler, or are the temps lower for that?

-Al

[Idle_Chatter]

Alan, as far as I know, the fuel cooler is not to be restricted by any guidance. However, if it's extremely cold and you are having fuel waxing issues, a temporary covering could help to get some recirculating warming working better.

[jbplock]

Originally posted by Sierra467:
I have been looking for Cloud Rider and have not found one to buy from on line. I just wanted to get some more info on them before I decided on the Lund or the Cloud Rider.

Does anyone know of a Cloud Rider dealer I can look at on line or in person? Try calling the number shown in the top right corner of this link. (http://www.mpcustoms.com) (This is where I bought my Cloud-Rider)

smile.gif

[Sierra467]

Tom,

Great detailed description! Thanks. I have had people asking if the fuel system is warmed by anything and I did not know how to answer them. I think that this answers the question - Thanks again.

[Sierra467]

Bill,

I checked this website the other day and none of the links were working for the Cloud Rider info, so I was not sure if I should have proceeded, with your recomendation, I will. Thanks very much. :D

[jbplock]

Craig,

Let us know what you find out. smile.gif