Hey Amianthus........

[afp]

I appreciate that you--a Dodge guy--come over here and share you expereinces in a very polite way. Even though you know many folks cannot see past the "my brand is best" syndrome.

I do have a couple questions for oyu.

- Do the HO Cummins w/common rail have two fuel filters from the factory?

- Do you think the common rail systems are more finnicky about clean fuel than the earlier injection systems?

Blaine

[Amianthus]

Hey cool. Thanks for the accolade.

No. The HPCR Ram does not have two filters. It does have a redesigned lift pump. And I haven't heard of many woes with it. Not like the one I was blessed with. The new one may, however, have a different filtration system. Although, I doubt it.

As evidenced by the HPCR of the Dmax, heck even the pump/line/nozzle sytem on my truck, our diesel fuel quality is crap in the US. Extra filtration would only be a boon. To answer your question, yes. I do think that HPCR is more fickle with degraded fuel quality. Mainly because of the pressures that the rail is under. That and the tolerances that the injectors and pump must maintain in order to operate efficiently.

Why the HPCR Ram is not having the multitude of problems with injectors that the Dmax has, escapes me. But if I were to guess, I would say that the filtration is the key. Fleetguard (being a subsidiary of Cummins and a client of mine) makes some of the finest filtration systems in the world. I can only guess that some of that technology has been implemented into the HPCR system. But that's just a guess.

[Modified]

Amianthus:
How's your Performance Engineering PE4200 lift pump working. Do you have it mounted in engine compartment, or down under on the frame.
I've been thinking about their lift pump on my D-Max, but John recomends mounting it in the engine compartment, to prevent it from getting wet and failing.
From what I've read, and think, it seems the Standadyne and the Delco Lift Pumps that guys are putting on the D-Maxs are not pumping enough fuel under load, and still fuel pressure goes to vacuum at WOT.
The PE4100 series are expensive, but rebuildable, and still looks like a good choice, if I could mount it down on the frame by the tank. Thanks for any input.

[afp]

Thanks for the info!

I think the reason the Cummins common rail had less teething pains than the DMax is becauue Dodge went to school on the DMax. Seeing the propensity for injector leaks, Dodge decided to make the injectors external form the get go, which is a wise choice. GM has gone external with the 04 LLY engine.

Blaine

[Amianthus]

My 4200 is working pretty good. My only complaint has been the wierd operation with the extremely cold weather. After the pump warms up, it works very well. FYI, I have it mounted on the frame rail by the tank. But, I have also sealed it up pretty good. If I were to mount it again, I'd mount it in the engine compartment. But all in all, no complaints.

I don't think that Cummins learned all that much from Dmax and what they've done so much as what was learned in Europe with the HPCR engines over there. That's where they really cut their teeth. Passenger vehicles being 50% diesel over there, they can acquire performance data much quicker than they can over here. Although, Cummins would be daft to not heed what's going on with the Dmax HPCR.

[TDIwyse]

Saw this at http://www.heavydutytrucking.com/2003/10/086a0310.asp


"While Caterpillar has reduced its filtration size all the way down to two microns, and Volvo's is at five microns, Cummins is bucking the trend to finer filtration. Injection specialist Ray Amlung says the Celect fuel system used on earlier Cummins engines had secondary filtration down to 15 microns. But with the early ISX, this was relaxed to 25 microns, although it is back down again to 15 microns now. Amlung says the new HPI injection system is designed and tested to withstand the assault of available fuel, although there could be some edge erosion on metering ports. "Lots (of people) run 25 microns with no issues," he says, and the fuel injection system is designed to last the life of the engine."

Wonder if they're doing the same (15um) with the HPCR system in the Dodge HO?

[Amianthus]

Originally posted by Amianthus:
Why the HPCR Ram is not having the multitude of problems with injectors that the Dmax has, escapes me. But if I were to guess, I would say that the filtration is the key. Fleetguard (being a subsidiary of Cummins and a client of mine) makes some of the finest filtration systems in the world. I can only guess that some of that technology has been implemented into the HPCR system. But that's just a guess. TDIwyse, you kinda shot that one in the arse. Didn't ya?! :D

[TDIwyse]

I was just wondering if that 2um primary filter I added in front of my oem filter is really going to help me. If Cummins is getting away with 15um filters with their HPCR system I'm wondering if there isn't something radically different with their injector design. Anyone know?

[afp]

Amianthus,

Given Euro diesel is so much better than ours, I think a whole new set of problems arose when they introduced common-rail to the USA. While I agree the majority of work was done based on European experience, I think Cummins was able to fine tune a bit based on what they saw with the DMax's HPCR on American fuel. But that is just a guess.

When I first got my truck, I had the mildly lopey idle just off "cold" while it was warming up, and that was fixed with a ECM update. My guess is the update richened the idle mixture a tad. I have run an additive from the beginning and managed to get a secondary fuel filter--the Mega--on at 16,000ish. Hopefully I have elimiated what I'm told are the two leading causes of injector failure--dirty fuel and particles coming off the injector pump due to poor fuel lubricity. I guess time will tell.

At present, my truck runs like a scalded ape (w/Juice, of course), gets good mileage, and I haven't had any injector concerns--as of yet.

Is your current truck an HPCR, and if so what are you doing to maintain the injectors?

Blaine

[Amianthus]

You might be right. You may be wrong. I don't think anyone is gonna voluntarily divulge that information or not. So we are all left to speculate if there was any relationship betwixt the two manufacturer's. Covert or otherwise.

As for my truck, no. Mine's a '99. GM didn't have the Dmax out (and the GM dealer WOULD NOT sell me a 6.5), I've got bad blood with FoMoCo, and DC had the venerable Cummins motor. So I didn't have much choice. Not that I regret my decision. To the contrary, my truck has performed for me better than I could've ever imagined.

But because of my VP-44, I do have to take extra steps to keep the performance where I like it. One being the lift pump, the other is religious use of an additive. I started with Power Service and had good luck with that. I'm now using Stanadyne and like it pretty well. At some point in time, I might even give JK a call and try the Total Power he's selling. Any way you slice it, I will never use pump fuel without using a quality additive.