View Full Version : Devils advocate with Fuel Filters
Carli_max
02-13-2003, 10:34
Been kinda of sitting back and listening to all the fuel filter talk lately. If I can play devils advocate for one minute!!
What happens if I take my low mileage (still under warranty) $45,000 truck, and modify the fuel system to put a pre or post filtering system on it, and I am un-lucky enough to have an injector problem. Do you think the General will step up to the plate and fix it for free, or will he try to pin the blame on me, and my modified setup????? Don't mean to stir the pot here, but this concerns me!! This could be a classic 'CATCH-22' situation. Wouldn't it be best to lobby these filter manufacturers (Cat, Racor, Baldwin...) to build us a 2 micron filter that would fit our stock system. No warranty concerns, and clean fuel, what a concept!!!
If your lucky you will have great sevice manager like I do who doesn't care what you do.
MountainMax
02-13-2003, 11:14
Makes sense to me. I the mfg's see enough people willing to install complete systems, then obviously more people would buy the 2 micron filter that would fit the oem system.
Extra filter was encouraged by my stealer..
He is not the classic poor stealership usually out there.
smile.gif
Carli_max
02-13-2003, 12:36
You guys seem to have great dealers, but somehow, I think when a $4000.00 warranty claim comes across the table, a district rep will be out to view your truck, and he or she might be making the decision to pay the claim!! :rolleyes:
IndigoDually
02-13-2003, 12:39
If a filter mfg. would make a direct replacement then they would try to put the blame on the non-OEM fuel filter.
John
Carli_max
02-13-2003, 12:43
They might, but they wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on! By altering the OEM system, I think they would have a lot a legs to stand on !!
If you alter the fuel system in any manner you void your warranty - period, end of story. And if you were GM you would take the same position.
This is why I chose to plumb into the HOSE on the engine. Easily reversible...
Carli_max
02-13-2003, 13:49
It's 10 below zero, your in a different state, at night, and your dead on the side of the road. Are you really gonna get out of your truck and reverse your sins in that situation??? I don't mean to be a PITA, but I think we are attacking this problem the wrong way!! If we have a 2 micron filter that fits our stock setup then the problem is solved. No need to alter you fuel delivery system, and void you warranty. If everyone on the diesel page forum sent an e-mail to the filter mfg's, then we might get a positive response from one of them!! Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everyone's hard work, just think we are going about it the wrong way!!
Ok, look at it from this angle. If you put the filter on you won't need the $4000 injuectors under warranty. I'll take my chances. If I don't put it on, my luck they will go out 1 mile past warranty.
Odds are, the "technician" will not even notice this apparatus. I really think he'd have to be a SOB to get on you about warranty anyhow.
Keep in mind, we will NOT see satisfatory results from a single filter on the OE mount. Heck we may not even see ANY aftermarket entries tool up for this part...
Idle_Chatter
02-13-2003, 15:48
I'm with JK on this one. No filter manufacturer is going to pay the tooling and design cost for a "super filter" to fit our OEM housing if it can't be recovered in sales. If they do, it's gonna be expensive and have to be changed every 2,000 miles. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. I'm going with a Kennedy mega-filter soon as it's available.
big dipper
02-13-2003, 16:23
Carli-max,
Do you take your Juice off when you go to the dealer? If it is 10 degrees, side of the road, and tranny takes a dump, are you gonna take the chance and leave your Juice on there?
The way John's system looks, you will be able to pull the hoses from the engine and tuck them up under something I am sure. Also, this is a pull system not a push so you will probably only have clamps. If the need should arrive, I can't see it taking more than 2 ro 3 minutes to dis-able the aux. filter.
George
GM Smitty
02-13-2003, 19:11
I am a bit worried about the bone heads at the dealer. They ALWAYS know more than you, and even though we can come up with very rational reasons for adding the secondary filters, they will still blame the filter for something like an alternator going bad. If I had a problem with my truck, I'm hoping that logical heads would prevail when I would show them fuel analysis that details the lousy job the OEM unit is doing, and give them documenetation that the factory fuel pump can easily handle another filter. "Yes Mr. Technician, I am making my truck better!" I have not had to visit my dealer for anything since I've had my truck (just jinxed myself), so I have no idea what the techs are like. If something were to go wrong, I would definitley "feel them out" before even bringing the truck to them. If they had a bad attitude about after market items, I might try to find a different dealer.
I'm with srubrn. I hoping that I am eliminating future problems by addressing this issue now. I guess it's a risk I'm willing to take to make my truck run better and last longer.
And the point of trying to get other manufacturers to make a better unit to work on our truck has been discussed before. It's not gonna happen (although I wish it would). It's just not worth it to them.
Thanks again to all who are contributing to solving this problem. New ideas area a good thing!
Josh
Carli-max
"just think we are going about it the wrong way."
What's the right way?
I'm impressed with the ideas and experimentation.
Can't wait for more results to be available.
If it's not Reversible,Easily is a bonus,it wouldn't matter to me if I were doing it on the side of the road,gotta do what ya gotta do......I wouldn't be interested......
With all the inconsistencies and GM barking looking for a lope hole to avoid warranty coverage it is the only way I see it.....Nothing perminent,nothing sold or given away, till my warranty is kaput !!!!!
I'll have half a truck in my rafters when I'm done,cause of this ordeal we are faced with.....Seems John's set up is front runner good sample reports ,reversible.....
MAC :D :D :D
a64pilot
02-14-2003, 07:59
CARLI_MAX,
You have a good point about the warranty issue. My opinion (and you know how those are)is that the General is more aware about premature injector failure than we are. I don't believe that they much care as most will out live the warranty and they don't have to pay for injectors that are out of warranty. I accept that is precisely your point. I.E. don't void your warranty early.
My concern is that while GM considers a truck old at 100,000 miles, to me it is just broken in good.
I believe that to break even on the extra price of a diesel you have to drive more than 50,000 miles or so. If you have to buy injection parts every 100,000 miles or so then there is no economy in the Diesel eng. (My 95 6.5TD's fuel injection pump comes to mind). It had only 150,000 miles on it and was needing it's third pump when I sold it. Pump replacement was around $3000 at the stealer IIRC. Apparently people like JK had come up with a solution for the Stanodyne and I didn't know it.
I grew up around farm diesels and learned a few rules that I think apply here.
1. Buy clean fuel and keep it clean.(this is embossed on an international tractors fuel cap)
2. you can't change the oil to often, only not often enough
3. Finally, air can't be too clean, only not clean enough.
I know these sound silly, but you would be amazed at the number of people that think they are saving money by extending oil change intervals etc.
Bottom line. I wish that I had been aware of JK's fix for my 95, It would have saved me thousands.
As soon as the better fuel filtration system is available I'm on it, (rule #1)
I know that they would try, but I would like to see the mechanics face as he tried to explain how the extra filter killed the alternator to me.
Even if I had to eat said alternator, it's still far cheaper than injectors.
Finally this is only my opinion and I have been wrong before.
Carli_max
02-14-2003, 08:34
I guess I don't understand why the Cat 2 micron filter can't be easly made to fit our setup. It works for the big rigs, and they flow alot more fuel than we do for a given distance. You folks have done a great job finding this problem and coming up with a fix, dont get me wrong!! I just don't want to jepordize the remaining 75,000 miles of my warranty!! A64, I think your prevention steps would go along way in keeping our injectors working properly. Maybe I'd add a #4 to your list, a good lubricating fuel additive!
Idle_Chatter
02-14-2003, 08:44
Ooops! Carli-Max, that "good lubricating fuel additive" just voided your warranty! :eek: Sorry, just couldn't resist! :D
Carli_max
02-14-2003, 08:47
Idle,
Ooops, only if they could prove I used it!!!! tongue.gif
Carli,
I really think that no single filter will fit the bill. While not familiar with the entire Cat fuel system, I would think that they run a primary filter somewhere.
Also, restriction is one thing that I have not yet seen tested. The OE filter will typiclly run at 3-3.5"hg at curb idle, and should remain constant at high (max governed speed) idle as well. My setup remains steady in the 3-3.5" range.
I had a 2001 truck in with 15k on the OE filter and it read 5" and swung to 7"+ at high idle.
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