TS PowerLoader 170 rwhp+ [Archive] - TheDieselPage.com Forums

Dennis Perry

11-03-2002, 08:36

We have done more testing on the Power Loader and found that 125 rwhp is about the limit on the stock trans, however some Duramax owners have been requesting more. The advertized 125rwhp is the limit for the stock trans but we can make more (170rwhp+) and want the input of the customers if we have an extreme version will there be a market for it? What we have found out is that you cannot run the 170+rwhp version with a stock trans, so how many people have beefed up the tranny and will the tranny upgrade hold the additional power. I have searched for companies that offer a tranny upgrade but have been unsucessful to find one that will hold the power. I know there are companies claiming to make more hp than the 125rwhp but on the dyno we have found that the tranny will not hold for very long. So before we go any further we decided to find out if there will be a market for such power out of one module?? We may have to wait for a tranny upgrade that will hold the power but we do know that there is alot more power left in the Duramax. I have spoke with SunCoast Converters in Ft.Walton Beach and they are in the works but not avalible yet. Any input would be appreciated whether it is good or bad, we just want to see what if the customers are willing to do the required upgrades before we take it to the next level. Let us know!!!!

Dennis/ TS Performance

George Gozelski

11-03-2002, 14:38

Dennis, I would be very interested in a more powerful version of your Powerloader. However, the next upgrade I plan on doing will more than likely be the transmission. You said you haven't been able to find a manufacturer with aftermarket "stuff" that will hold up to all that Duramax power? What about ATS Performance out in Colorado? They claim that they haven't found a breaking point for their stage 2 Allison upgrade yet. What do you know about them and their claims? If I had to do it all over again, I would have purchase my Dmax with the ZF 6 speed to avoid all of this Allison crap!

mackin

11-03-2002, 15:55

Quote=>"avoid all of this Allison crap! "

How Dare you George........ :D ;)

Show me anouther stock auto tranny on the road today with as many features that will stand up to Over 400 FWHP and 345 RWHP day after day.....

Right along the same lines as a six speed....One can spin a clutch just as well with more power......

MAC :D

sdaver

11-03-2002, 16:56

HEY DENNIS IVE HERD RUMORS OF A TOW PROGRAM WITH 600FTLBS OF TORQUE AVAILIBLE FROM 1700 RPMS UP ALONG WITH THE 125 RWHP MODE.......IS THERE ANY WAY YET TO SAVE FATORY PROGRAMING AND HAVE THESE TWO ALONG WITH NO DEFUELING, NO SPEED LIMITER, TIRE CORRECTION, AND NO TRANNY MODS(OTHER THAN THE COMPUTER INCREASING LINE PRESSURE)AND MAYBE A WEBSITE WITH DOWNLOADABLE FEATURES(IVE READ THE HYPE ON DIABLO AND IM STILL WAITING) OR AM I DREAMING OF UTOPIA........DAVE :rolleyes:

srubrn

11-03-2002, 17:31

I have to agree about the ZF. I don't see very many threads in here about how bad the transmission is. Only thing I see is us wussys complaining about hard the clutch is to depress after driving a while. Then it isn't even as hard as my 95 chevy 1/2 ton with a five speed. Luv my ZF and you can take the auto and keep it.

Big O

11-04-2002, 01:57

Dennis Perry
I understand that the PowerLoader will work with the ZF6. If so, how much extra hp will the clutch handle, without slippage?

George Gozelski

11-04-2002, 12:31

Mackin, didn't mean to "dis" you buddy! You are correct on the 6 speed manual in "slipping" a clutch. However, upgrading the 6 speed via heavy duty clutch parts is going to be a whole lot cheaper than beefing up the Allison. It still boils down to the driver really.

One "undeniable" truth is certain, no auto tranny will ever be more efficient than a manual tranny, and the ZF 6 speed is very smooth. I actually ordered one and ended up buying a D/A before it arrived. A buddy of mine ended up buying it so we have direct comparisons now and again.

My buddy gets 18 mpg and I get 14 maybe 15 on a good day. It just seems that for the extra money you spend on the Allison tranny, that same money could have been put into performance "stuff" on a truck with the ZF 6 speed!

I don't dislike mine, but I think if I were doing it all over again tomorrow, I'd get the 6 speed!

mackin

11-04-2002, 18:05

George

You know I'm just messing with ya ........I hear ya....I'm just all done shifting less it's a sports car......
My last stick was a 88 Scottsdale 4x4 .... Eleven thousand gvw 350 with a 456 gear first gear was granny.....Thing was a tank pull stumps like no tomorrow.....Bad side 9 mpg 75 or 3 mph.....Two 18 gallon saddle tanks and it needed it, every drop..... :eek:

MAC

kerry witherspoon

11-04-2002, 18:19

I would like to try the stock powerloader but am concerned about warranty as we have no protection in cannada if we use aftermarket performance options. Iwould also like to here from people who have the powerloader.

CPMac632

11-04-2002, 18:38

Big O My 2 cents about clutch power limits. I'm sure all trucks and driving styles are different. I drive fairly hard and my clutch would take 110 horse very well but won't come close to taking around 200 extra.

SoCalDMAX

11-05-2002, 10:04

At one time I was interested in modifying the tranny to take more power. After blasting up the mountains towing a fairly light trailer (compared to the loads some of you haul) I'm mellowing a little in my quest for total annihilation. ;) I like the thought that some (insert other brand) owner is white-knuckling his steering wheel at 55mph while I fly by at 85mph, but the thought of the ticket bothers me.

IRT the Allison vs ZF6, I recall seeing posts on here about a few people having recurring problems with the dual mass flywheel. Dunno if it's a design issue or just a few bad ones, but a flywheel coming apart is bound to ruin one's day especially on vacation with a trailer. :(

If one had an extra 200hp and a ZF6, it's no problem to take it easy on the shifts and roll on the power in gear. Using all of that power towing (and especially if one abuses it) could take it's toll on the rest of the drivetrain.

Regards, Steve

sdaver

11-05-2002, 10:40

hey dennis you asked but are you listening???????????????????dave :rolleyes: come man say yes to utopia :D

CPMac632

11-05-2002, 14:36

Steve I have in the neighborhood of an extra 200 horse (will try to find out a little closer this weekend at KC dyno day). I can not tow anything with it because of EGT and clutch and if you roll into it at 60 miles and hour in high gear as the boost passed 35psi the clutch will let go no shifting or anything.

sdaver

11-05-2002, 15:50

CPMAC632.. WHAT KINDA TRUCK

CPMac632

11-05-2002, 17:30

sdaver 01 regular cab 6 speed DURAMAX.

Dennis Perry

11-26-2002, 20:36

SDaver,

Sorry to take so long in answering your post we have been very busy at the shop. The PowerLoader works great with the ZF6 Manual Trans. With the 125 hp setting we have not slipped the clutch, so we are getting ready to find out exactly how much the clutch will hold. We are actually going to keep putting hp to the truck until we can get it to slip. That should give everyone a baseline of where the stopping point is and where the aftermarket clutch manufactures need to step in.

Now for big concern that everyone seems to want to know....When will the Allison give up and break and who has a fix for it that works??? We have spoke to SunCoast Converters on a few occasions to see how they are coming for the upgrades?? Yesterday everything fell into place as we wanted, they are ready to fix the Allison but there was only one condition?? It had to be broke :eek: This makes perfect sense, how do you make something stronger that is not broke? After some thought we came up with the answer...I contacted Steve Cole today and put the plan together, we are going to start by adding the 170hp version, if that doesen't break it then we are going to steadily increase from there. This is going to help everyone with the Duramax in deciding where they want to stop with the modifications and get us a ballpark price range for the tranny fix. This process may take a while but we will keep everyone posted.

Dennis

[ 11-26-2002: Message edited by: Dennis Perry ]</p>

Swayse

11-26-2002, 21:30

Sounds like my dream job. Let us know how it goes.

AzKevin

11-26-2002, 23:03

My recollection of increased clutch wear was when I got clever/lazy and did the normal stoplight or stop sign standing start with second or third gear. I'd guess within less than 35k miles the clutch would be noticeably weaker. Your results may vary. ;)

xwing

11-27-2002, 09:01

Dennis:
We want Unlimited Power smile.gif
We need Allison upgrading to hold the power, and SPECIFICS about WHAT is changed to do this so we know what we paid for, and how much increased power it can take reliably! "Better converter"...in what WAY? Increased stall speed is NOT what we need; we need clutches IN trans that don't slip!
We need a Box which can maximize the power of the DMax engine, without changing turbos/injectors/internals...bolt on.

THANKS To All Companies, and Individuals, who are pushing these limits!

ZFMax

11-27-2002, 10:29

Clutch holding capability is normally a torque rating, not a horsepower rating. Horsepower is a number that describes the total combination of torque and rpm that a motor is making. Unless it has some kind of centrifugal spring assist, the clutch's holding capability doesn't change with rpm, only the torque component of the hp rating matters.

I would *think* an automatic transmission would be rated the same way, but I guess if it's electronics that are commanding it to slip, they could factor in rpm if they wanted to for whatever reason. But torque is the twisting force that's trying to break things.

zip

11-27-2002, 11:29

Dang, XWING. I don't wanna race corvettes- all I wanna do is pull my camper down the road!
Well, maybe a little faster than the guy next to me. :D
zip. Happy Thanksgiving everybody.

SoCalDieselNewbie

11-27-2002, 14:08

Mr Perry,

While the converter is the first step, I don't think it solves the problem.

Now I have not been in a Duramax w/ a SunCoast Convertor but I have been in a Duramax w/ an ATS Triple Lock convertor.

In that truck, the shifting improved but I think if you pushed hard enough... the 5th gear would start slipping again.

I am not talking about obscene power numbers... 400+ HP and 900 ft-lbs of torque.

It isn't like this thing is putting down 500+ HP and over 1100 Ft-lbs of torque. Both numbers look like they will be quite easy to reach in the near future.

SDAVER,

Rumors? Rumors? Hmmm, so my posts are now rumors?

Just a sec... I am going to drive my truck around the block...

Nope not a rumor! :D

Dennis Perry

11-27-2002, 16:48

SoCalDiesel,

Sounds like you are putting some good numbers down. I agree with you on the converter, I don't think it is a total fix either. The tranny slipping in 5th gear is the direction we want to address, if this can be fixed the sky will be the limit on the engine. Weather towing or racing everyone will be able to achive their goals without worring about the slipage problem.

Xwing,
I am sure they will tell you some of the things that will be changed but I don't thik they will reveal all of the secrets. SunCoast has always had outstanding warranties on their products, so you won't have to worry about getting the short end of the stick.

Zip,
We are trying to get this so you can tow your trailer and if you ever had the desire to race the corvette you would be able to finish well.

Dennis

SoCalDieselNewbie

11-27-2002, 17:40

Mr. Perry,

I whole heartedly agree.

Once the tranny gets worked out, big HP is right around the corner.

In fact, what I am really waiting for it a truly great set of injectors.

Here is what I am thinking... please feel free to correct me or interject your opinion...

With new injectors, the duration can be shortened and some of the timing taken out of the programs... You would still be running better Dyno numbers without have such a radical tune on the motor.

Advantage? The ability to run a much higher flow of Propane than you can with just a 'chip'. Right now, from what I understand, about the max flow for Propane is around 5 CFM on the 125-175 hp programs. More CFM on the Propane = More Horsepower!

Also, you start adding a NOS fogger to the equation for the HP and, almost as important, to lower the EGTs.... You get MORE HORSEPOWER!

Is my thinking correct here? I am just a little Diesel Newbie so I could be all messed up. tongue.gif

SoCalNewbie

PS. I noticed that you folks recommend fork lift tanks. What is the general cost and can they be mounted underneath the bed where the spare tire goes normally?

DMAX Daddy

11-27-2002, 19:23

I am interested in the 170HP product, and have emailed you before asking questions, but Im still struggling with what gauges to use. (personal mounting preference, not brand name)

I was also waiting to see if the price tag would drop a little, cause gauges and Powerloader end up being close to $1200+ when you get down to it.

Though I did manage to swing a Banks exhaust from a friend for a steal! :D

CUMINNTSTRKN

11-28-2002, 15:54

guys 5th gear isn't the only weak link. i know of a certain company that ruined the 3rd and 4th gear clutch packs. this happened while drag racing. they were putting down about 425rwhp.

jim

SoCalDieselNewbie

11-28-2002, 16:13

425 Hp is about what I am putting to the pavement...

I have noticed 3rd and 5th gear clutch packs slipping.

But anyway, am I the only one that has the tranny pop into Neutral under heavy acceleration?

It is easy to recover from, put it into Neutral for a few seconds and then back into Drive, but it sucks when you are kicking their @ss and it happens.

mackin

11-28-2002, 17:18

Then I guess that would mean they tossed 2nd gear along with OD (5th) and R perhaps......

MAC :rolleyes:

[ 11-28-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

CUMINNTSTRKN

11-28-2002, 17:40

mack

maybe i'm wrong about 4th gear. i know it was 3rd though. it drove back to the shop but it wasn't real happy.

jim

mackin

11-28-2002, 18:43

Jim

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic ,please don't take it wrong,if you did .....

Since this is drivetrain related lets look at the deal......Since someone may have pointed the way......
They arrangement is =>
There are two sets of rotating clutches, C1 and C2. Then there are three stationary clutches C3, C4 and C5. Between them they control three sets of planetary gears. The following shows the clutches and their operational states.

First Gear C1 and C5 Applied
Second Gear C1 and C4 Applied
Third Gear C1 and C3 Applied
Fourth Gear C1 and C2 Applied
Fifth Gear C2 and C3 Applied
Reverse C3 and C5 Applied

So you know,but some of you all ready do prolly.....
C3 and C4 are a smooth face clutches and the only ones that are smooth,designated for smooth engagement,easiest way to remember,as opposed to grooved application for shifting....All the clutch packs have different OD....But C3 and C4 are identical 8.67x .099 thick 117 teeth...Largest of all 5 clutchs......All are made of Kevlar material,and the same clutchs used in the 2000 and 2400 series I believe.....My theory would be they are the weakest clutches considering the task at hand,plentifull horsepower with smooth engagement......Slip sliding......

AND,

=>Characteristics common to all electronic controllers include the following:

* shift point control
* converter lock-up clutch operation
* pressure control of friction elements
* engine torque control during shifting
* safety functions/diagnostics
* hardware protection from driver abuse

But my true quest is to get the answer to this......
We know at least #4 and possible that #1 are being addressed by Edge.....We all know what #6 is ........So will taping increasing if possible #3 be enough?????To keep the clutches from losing their grip,or get to the point "OF" gripping??? To what peak HP TQ number???? Mind boggling and we wonder why these boxes demand the dead presidents......
So lets here it ........So say you all.....How far off base am I ???

MAC
:D

[ 11-28-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

Kennedy

11-29-2002, 09:05

I believe it is the C2 clutch that is giving us the grief. Now the next issue is HOW would one get it to fail when it "punts" if it doesn't like what it sees on first down???

There is also some theory that the C2 clutch is getting heated up in 4th gear which makes it that much less effective in 5th. This may be true, but I've had it slip during a rol on of power without running hard in 4th...

George Gozelski

11-29-2002, 12:21

Boy, I guess there are shortcomings in all good products! As soon as we get the Allison fixed, we'll probably start dumping rear ends and drive lines! :D

sdaver

11-29-2002, 23:50

BEEN AWAY FOR TURKEY DAY.........SOCALNEWBIE ARE THOSE NUMBERS WITH THE LIGHTS ON OR OFF? :D I THINK THAT ONCE THE TRANNY ISSUES ARE RESOLVED THE WEAK LINK WILL MOVE ON DOWN THE FOOD CHAIN.....JUST CURIOUS SOCALNEWBIE DOES THE MUD YOUR TALKING OF RETAIN YOUR STOCK PROGRAMING........AND WHAT ABOUT THE SPEED LIMITER........BEER AND STEAKS.......RIGHT.....NO ZIMA AND TOFU FOR ME.....REMEBER IM BUYING.........PROBABLY HAVE TO BRING THE HARLEY SOMEONE IS HOT AFTER MY JEEP AND IT LOOKS LIKE IT MIGHT BE GONE......GOT RELATIVES IN CARMEL...HOPE TO SEE YA SOON..DAVE.......HEY SINCE WE CANT PM DROP ME A EMAIL........... :D DAVE

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-02-2002, 12:36

Lights on or off?
Defuel between shifts?
Fishbite?
RETAIN STOCK PROGRAMING?

Ain't no box on my truck... Unless you can read the binary code on my chip, which even GM can't do, my truck is stock!

Speed Limiter?

Good Lord, I hope not! Speed limits around here are 55, 65 & 70. I like going fast... You should have seen this wonderful pass that I executed last night @ 105 mph. :D

"I THINK THAT ONCE THE TRANNY ISSUES ARE RESOLVED THE WEAK LINK WILL MOVE ON DOWN THE FOOD CHAIN.....

Think? Heck, I am sure that it will move down the food chain. You just have to decide before hand, what lengths and costs are you willing to endure to put just a little more HP to the ground.

There has to be a reason WHY they designed the Allison Tranny to slip more easily in 5th gear. My guess is that since it is an OVERDRIVE, they designed the slippage to protect the engine coming under a very heavy load.

People, that are in the know, think that the Duramax could turn out 550 HP @ the REAR WHEELS without doing anything mechanical to the motor.

hoot

12-02-2002, 14:11

Dennis,

Aren't you guys a little behind in figuring out what power levels are too much for the Allison? The trans is in it's third year. We have plenty of guys here running mods that already know where their tranny goes limp.

I believe John Kennedy has all the info you need ;)

ATS has an excellent writeup on their site about what they have tested the Allison to, power wise. They have two upgrades available (supposedly). You claim there are no upgrades but you're ignoring ATS????

Dennis Perry

12-02-2002, 15:08

Hoot,

I don't think we are behind in finding out how much it will take to break the Allison. We know how much power it takes to slip it just like everyone else, what we are looking for is a fix. I didn't over look ATS, however when we tried it it didn't work. This doesn't mean that their product is no good, it just didn't fix the issue we are reasearching.

If John Kennedy had the answers we are looking for then don't you think he would have a product out that would hold the kind power we know that we can produce through programming out of the Duramax??

Until we break one we can't fix one, that is the purpose of turning up the hp through the program until it breaks. We are doing this for the benefit of all duramax owners, so they will know the limits and not exceed any boundries that could cause this kind of harm to their truck and for those that would like to make the big hp numbers they will know what needs to be done.

Dennis

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-02-2002, 16:06

HOOT,

I think the point that is being made is this...

The Allison will not come close to tolerating the power available by just reprogramming the PCM.

If you put any decent amount of power to the input shaft, you can put the tranny into limp mode at will.

I know guys that are waiting for an ATS valve body. They aren't in production as far as I know.

The thing that I find interesting about Mr Perry's project is this... He is trying to break a torque converter so SunCoast can build a better one. I don't know how he is going to get enough power to break it since the current weak link is the 5th gear clutch pack.

Put it on a dyno... the gear selector to 1st (assuming that is the strongest clutch pack)... and put the truck under a heavy load?

hoot

12-02-2002, 16:43

Sounds simple but if you apply more pressure to a clutch pack when it's engaged, won't it stop slipping?

You want to find out what breaks then load the clutch packs up so they don't slip so easily.

ATS says their Stage II setup will allow the Allison to take anything you give it. You say it doesn't work.

Are they lying?

Kennedy

12-02-2002, 17:44

If you want to get rough with the Allison, try that 235HP (or whatever they are calling it) race box guys keep talking about. HOPEFULLY you can hurt the trans before the EGT's hit the ceiling.

The ATS stage 2 is not released yet, so we only go by what they are telling us. I will say that I conversed with another major power player today who agreed that the Stage 1 DID make a definite difference.

Sun Coast has had a converter for some time now, it's the C2 clutch that is the problem. I sense that there is a general unwillingness in the aftermarket to venture into the hard parts of the Allison because sure as shootin', as soon as the parts are made, Allison will upgrade, and have the parts available in large qty's as well...

hoot

12-02-2002, 19:05

You know this Allison might be expensive but it sure seems like it can take abuse. So far we hear very little of any problems. Lot's of abusers posting here with no major failures.

Anything that beefs it up will make this thing indestructable.

George Gozelski

12-03-2002, 14:46

Well ladies and gents, it sounds lke we are getting VERY NEAR to getting our Allison trannies fixed! Competition is a wonderful thing!

PEANUTGRWR

12-04-2002, 09:10

I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY A POWER GLIDE TRANNY CAN WITHSTAND 700-800 HP WITH OUT SLIPPING AND THE ALSION CANNT. I KNOW THE POWER GLIDES THAT ARE DOING THIS ARE MODIFIED TO THE MAX. BUT THE INTERAL COMPONENTS OF THE GLIDE ARE FAR SMALLER THAN THE ALLI. DUNNO BEANS REALLY ABOUT EITHER OF THEM AS FAR AS THIER WORKINGS BUT THE SLIP THAT PEOPLE ARE SEEING-----COULD IT BE CONVERTER SLIP INSTEAD OF CLUTCH PACK SLIP?