View Full Version : Fuel Filter information re: CAT filter
Well I have been following the Fuel Test Results with interest. I did not want to put this item in that thread as it already is 7 pages long.
I am waiting to receive my 2003 Serivice Manuals from Helmic other wise I would be able to look this info up myself.
I have a couple of questions:
1. Where is the fuel pump located?
2. Is the OEM filter on the pushing side of the fuel pump or the sucking side?
The reason I ask is I went to CAT. and found an external spin on fuel filter base that is built by CAT for their hi efficiency fuel filter #1R0751 that filters down to 2 Microns. I am going to modify this unit to fit between my OEM filter and the engine. Once I have all the information on parts and stuff I will post them along with pictures.
I don't see why this should not work but if you have any comments feel free to post them.
thanks
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[ 02-09-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
Jim Cobler
02-09-2003, 16:07
Do you have the part number and cost of the base and filter?
The fuel pump is located on top of the engine in the valley under all that other equipment. It's hard to see, but it's there. It is the only pump in the system and it pulls fuel through the lines and filter. If you get a leak before the pump, you will suck air in the system.
Jim:
The part number for the filter is 1R0751 cost was $18.22 cdn
The part number for the filter base is 1204282 cost was $133.24cdn.
I received info from Jcopeland about his CAT set up and I like it. I decided to check with CAT and the fellow there found this filter base that will work. Now all I have to do is get the time to put it in. I am hoping to put it in this week coming. I see no reason why this won't work and get down to the 2 Micron filtering everyone is looking for.
Flyboy thanks for the info
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One thing I find lacking in the Cat filters is a means to seal the threads and/or an internal post seal. Threaded connections do not seal well, especially with low viscosity fluids like fuel. Additionally, whenever one mates threads, especially for the first time on jagged filter threads, shavings will be produced. Where do these shavings go? Clean side of fuel filter, next stop injection pump! :eek:
I looked at Johnny's setup, and liked it a lot, but I believe the AC lines are different on his 2001 which will make it difficult to make a "Universal" setup. Fact of the matter is, I've not looked at the 2003 model to see if mine will work as it does on the 2001-2...
JK:
The air condition lines on a 2003 are worse than on the 2002 & 2001. There is a big a/c pipe running right through where John was able to hang his filter so that area is out on the 2003.
About the thread sealing I would think that the CAT filter base and the filter thread look very clean and seem to be at least a high class of thread. (not being a machinest I could be wrong)
CAT. seems to build good quality parts as far as I know.
I will mate the filter and the base before I install it to see if there is any foreign material in the filter. All the filter bases will have a screw on system I don't think CAT would be supplying something that would put the CAT engine it was designed for in harms way.
I will be looking at the rest of the parts I need to do this installation sometime this week if possible.
smile.gif
DURA-MAX3
02-10-2003, 13:30
I to am adding the Cat filter setup on my duramax. I ran Cat filters on my peterbilt trucks for over 500,000 miles and never had one problem. I changed the filters at 10,000 to 12,000 miles and never had one plug up or malfunction. The big truck engines return a lot more fuel than these pick-ups do, so every time you fuel that fuel gets circulated countless times through the filter. So the way i see it one of those filters should last a long time with normal use... I checked at Cat and have a price on all the stuff to do the job, filter plate, prime pump{manual},prime pump gasket, and the filter. It was about 180.00 dollars from the local dealer...
Checked with my local CAT dealer and the price here on the 2-micron filter (1R-0751) is $9.99 and the 120-4282 base is $52.40 (also checked the price of 141-3339 CAT Delvac-1 ...$19.52/GAL).
Here is a link to the CAT filter brochure
http://www.cat.com/services/shared/parts_n_service/04_filters/fluid_filters/_filters/high_eff_fuel_filters.html
The CAT filter is tempting but I'm going to wait to see what JK comes up with for the 2003's.
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DURA-MAX3
02-10-2003, 13:56
when you buy the filter base you also have to buy the prime pump, or there is a big hole in the top of the filter plate, it is all seperate parts...
Dura-MAX3,
You got any pics of the filter head and filter? If not can you get some? Also what is the height of the whole unit with bulb, head and filter?
DURA-MAX3
02-10-2003, 16:22
I am going to get the stuff today hopefully. I'll take pics and send them if i can in the next day or so... I'm putting mine before the factory filter like todd did...
Dura-Max,
Are you going to get fuel samples run to make sure it works as advertised?
I went and got all the fittings I needed today. The fittings are the ones with the Oring seal.
I also picked up a copy of the spin on filter base from CAT. I have posted it in my photo album below.
If you click on the link and then click on CAT filter info you will see the hard copy of the filter base that CAT gave me.
You have an option to use 2 filters as shown in the second picture. If you don't use the second filter(which I am not going to do) the whole housing is just part of the the base and goes no where.
I will post pictures of the base unit in an hour or so....I have to go get my camera.
hope this helps a bit
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deerhunter7
02-10-2003, 20:24
Was it George who said cat made their own filters because of their injector problems ? I thought they set the standard in fuel filters . So I would think that their filters would do a better job than any others on the market. As so many members working on this ,putting in alot of time and effort that will benefit us all , I will wait to see who gets the best results before adding on.
Thanks to eveyone who is working on a setup. ;)
Well I posted 12 more pictures in my album.
You can click on the picture to get a larger size or even get full picture if you click on the full picture up in the right hand corner.
Also show some fittings that I got today for the filter base. Won't get around to installing it
until later this week I hope.
Will keep you up todate as I get into it.
hope this helps
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DURA-MAX3
02-10-2003, 23:06
Well i looked at the pictures and the one i have ordered is for the 3126 engine, which is about a 7 or 8 liter engine... It is the same part numbers that jbplock listed above. I bought the prime pump(manual) to bolt on to the filter plate to fill the filter when i change it. The man at Cat said that under normal use it should only have to be changed out 2 or 3 times a year... He was very interested in the idea of what i was going to do, and i even got his boss interested in the idea, he drives a dadge with a cummins, go figure...He said that we have to remember that these filters were designed to filter fuel for much larger engines, so he thought for the pick-ups it would be much easier on the filter in most cases. I will try to get pics on here when the guy gets my bracket finished...
Todd i don't know if i will be getting fuel samples or not but may try if i have time... I work about 70 or 75 hours a week...I may have to get you to post the pics for me...Later...
If I am reading this string correctly...........
ccds is going to modify this CAT unit to fit between his OEM filter and the engine as
John Kennedy has done. This will make his CAT unit a 2 Micron "final filter"
DURA-MAX3 is going to put his CAT unit on BEFORE the factory filter as Todd and Trace
did with their Stanadyne filter assmbly. So his will be a 2 Micron "pre-filter" set up.
Do I have this correct?
56Nomad
Yes I am going to put it between the OEM filter and the injector pump.
DURA-MAX3 looks like he is going to put it before the factory OEM filter.
smile.gif
Does anyone know if the CAT filter head has a heater?
LanduytG
02-11-2003, 07:25
The Cat does not have a heater. This is way I prefer the Racor. Will have more test results on the Racor in a couple of weeks.
Greg
DURA-MAX3,
Sorry some this is going to be redundant, but not everyone has been
keeping up with the other 7 page string.....
George Morrision has said, "To meet current federal #2 diesel
fuel standards, diesel fuel is only filtered to 30 microns when it leaves
the refinery" Ouch!
Because both Todd and TraceF have placed their Stanadyne 2 Micron
filters as primary filters and will be suspect to clogging, they're planning
to change these quite frequently (perhaps 4000-6000 miles). You
indicate that you'll be locating you CAT filter assembly in the same
location as they have done.
As the concern is premature clogging when putting on an absolute 2 Micron
filter before the factory OEM filter...... what has the CAT representative
suggested about how often to change your 1R0751 filter? Looking at the
length of this CAT filter, it appears much taller than the Stanadyne 2 Micron
filter...... and might go more miles before needing a change????
Thanks.
DURA-MAX3
02-11-2003, 11:07
He told me 2 or 3 times a year or every 3 months under normal driving. We have to remember that fuel filters are to be changed on a gallons of fuel filtered, rather than mileage... Like i said, i was changing them on a 14.6 liter engine every 10,000 or 12,000 miles... It is really going to differ from person to person...
DURA-MAX3
02-11-2003, 11:11
Yes i am adding mine as a pre-filter, forgot to answer that question...
I might add that in that 10,000 to 12,000 mileage, I probabaly burned 2000 gallons of fuel, that is a lot of filtering. Like i said that truck returns a lot a fuel to the tank, so each fillup the same fuel gets refiltered several times...Thought some would like to know...
DURA-MAX3,
I am more motivated to installing a second filter under the truck
as Todd, TraceF and you simply because of ease of installation
as well as ease of access to change the filter.
Can you briefly explain how the fuel system returns a lot a
fuel to the tank, so each fillup the same fuel gets refiltered
several times (you're refering to the 14.6 liter engine?)
I have never heard of this. Thanks.
I really looking forward to seeing some pic's of your installation
and how far the assembly hangs below the frame. If one doesn't do
heavy off road traveling.... it shouldn't be a problem??
[ 02-11-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
DURA-MAX3
02-11-2003, 12:07
will post more in depth a little latter today, busy at work. hang tight...
DURA-MAX3
02-11-2003, 13:43
Ok i have a minute or two... The 14.6 liter engine i am refering is a Caterpiller Truck engine i owned from 99 to 2001... These engines send a lot of fuel to the injector feed tube which is actually a hollow space in the head, the extra fuel that does not get injected is returned to the tank so in order to get back to the engine it had to go through the filter again. The Cat man told me once that for every gallon of fuel that truck used, it returned 25 gallons or more depending on rpm. If anyone is interested in knowing more let me know and maybe i can expain or answer questions. Thanks...Robert...
Dura-Max3,
Does that filter head have a primer on it?
GM Smitty
02-11-2003, 17:02
If there isn't a primer on the filter, it really isn't a big deal. The Racor unit (660R) I installed on my truck doesn't have one, but I just use the primer on the factory fuel filter to prime the system. I did it that way when I installed the Racor, and the truck started right up without any hesitation.
Josh
I have somemore information now. I received an email from someone from TDP and he sent me some pic's of a CAT filter base assembly that is the best I have seen.
The CAT part number is 141-5138.
This person sent me some pic's and I am just waiting to hear back from him if it is ok to post the pic's he sent me.
It is a good looking unit
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[ 02-11-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
DURA-MAX3
02-11-2003, 22:47
Guys there are several different filter plates avaliable, the one i am going to use is the one that is being used on the 3126 engine, It uses a little smaller filter than the much larger unit that fits the old 3406e or now called the c-15. Both have prime pump options, or you can buy a cover plate that coverd the hole if you choose not to use it. I ordered my parts yesterday and will get them tomorrow afternoon. The prime pump number i got was 105-2508 i'm almost sure. this unit uses the 1r-0751 filter.the gasket for the prime pump # is 1p-0436. Like i said i should get my parts tomorrow and i will get all the right numbers on here when i can look at the parts with my own eyes and see whats what, bear with me a little longer... Later Robert...
I have posted the photos that were supplied to me by another member. I hope he is ok with posting the pictures, if not I will remove them from my album.
This is the second CAT filter assembly and the best one I have seen so far. I am going back to CAT tomorrow to trade the one I bought for this one.
It is identified in my album as 2nd CAT filter
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DURA-MAX3
02-11-2003, 23:44
yes that filter is the one that fits the large Cat engines, The c-15 and c-16. It is much different than the one i am going to use. One difference on the plates is the prime pump comes out at an angle on the large one and straight out on the small one. The small one if used down on the frame would allow you to install closer to the underside of the truck, and still have use of the prime pump. The larger one would have to be lower to use the full range of the prime pump. Of course if you are not going to use it you won't have to worry about that.
Question for Todd::::: What did you use to cut the fuel line and did you pull it off the frame and the reinstall it, those clips seem awful weak... and did it leak fuel from either side after you cut the fuel line before install of filter... Thanks in advance...Robert
George Gozelski
02-12-2003, 06:20
Ccds, sounds like your on the right track, but why would you install a 2 micron filter ahead of the OEM filter? Isn't that defeating the purpose of the dual filter setup.
From the pictures it doesn't look like the CAT filter has a water drain. When these filters are used on a CAT engine do they have a water separator in front of them?
[ 02-12-2003: Message edited by: jbplock ]</p>
George Gozelski
I am going to put the 2 Micron CAT filter after the OEM filter. It will go between the OEM filter and the injector pump. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.
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[ 02-12-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
jbplock
I can't answer if the CAT has a water separator or not...sorry
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DURA-MAX3
02-12-2003, 07:29
The truck i had, did not have a water seperator on it. The filter in front of the 2 micron had a drain valve built in. That is why i am putting mine in front of the factory filter, if anything gets by the Cat filter the factory filter should catch it and send a message if water is detected...The Cat rep said this would work with no problems...The cat rep said that putting the 2 micron filter in front of the factory is backwards to the way they normally work, but like i said and he said these pick-ups are not using the amount of fuel that semi trucks do, so filter clogging should not be a problem...
DuraMax3,
I used a brake line cutter I borrowed from a mechanic friend of mine. Yes it did leak fuel. I had my lines ready to go with the clamps slid all the way up out of the way, that way once I slid the hose on, all I had to do was slide the clamps in place.
I pulled the line out of about four of those little plastic clips to cut it and just put them back. No problems yet.
What is the measurement of the smaller unit from top to bottom? And total cost including element.
DURA-MAX3
02-12-2003, 07:46
something else i just thought of, the filter we have on now is supposed to be a 2 micron filter although it is not as efficient as these others are, and we are not having filter plugups in 10,000 or so miles. Like is said, the fuel quality and the amount you use determine how aften you change them. On my big truck i had a fuel pressure gauge, and under full power i knew what the value was, now a couple of times i did change the 2 micron filter early because of filling with bad fuel...The fuel pressure gauge really came in handy... Just thought some would like to know...
DURA-MAX3
02-12-2003, 07:50
Todd, i ordered my stuff from Cat Monday and should have it today, and when i get my hands on it i'll let you know, but it will be less than a foot i'm almost certain... Robert...
I've been told that the factory element is actually a 5 micron unit. While there may be claims of 2 micron rating, the results would indicate otherwise.
CCDS,
When you are looking for particles measured by microns, you'd better have good eyes! My point is, that ANY machined surface wll have "fuzzies" on the surface, and ANY threads will generate particles when engaged. While these particles will flush out quickly and are a one time occurrence at filter change, they still are in the supposedly clean fuel. Look at the OE filter and you will see that a rubber seal engages a post to seal. They are not engaging ANY metal, AND they are not relying on threads to seal the dirty from the clean sides!
DURA-MAX3
02-12-2003, 08:40
J.K.:::: if this filter is installed and some shavings do come of, will the factory filter catch it...Thanks in Advance...
I agree with JK's comments 2 posts back.
Interesting point is that the Stanadyne FM100 is a slip up into rubber seal with external lock ring. The Racor 645 and 660 are spin on if I'm not mistaken.
My Stanadyne install was similar to Todd's. I flared the fuel lines though and had a very slight leak and had to reflair one end.
Here is something I learned-
I have a steep driveway, with the truck facing downhill the cut in the fuel line created a siphon and I had fuel everywhere. I was scrambling for my drain pan.
With the truck facing uphill, I lost maybe a cup or two from the front and rear combined.
John,
I'm looking at your soon to be released "Duramax MEGA Fuel Filter Kit" that you have
at your website. In view of your comment regarding machined surfaces will have "fuzzies" --how have you addressed this problem in your prototype machined filter
head and filter to avoiding these potential metal"fuzzies"?
Also trying to, based on the "homework" that you, George and others are doing..... doesn't it appear that when we do change our fuel filters with new elements,
there is some release of minor contamination inherent either from the new filter
material or "fuzzies"? If this is correct, couldn't one argue that our OEM will fairly effectively stop this errant contamination functioning as a secondary filter?
As you mention, this is just a one time occurrence, so it really is not an
on going wear problem with the pump and injectors.
Good golly..... so many things to consider. We are fortunate to have all this great input. Thanks.
[ 02-12-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
ccds,
Looking at the location where you are planning
to install the filter assembly at your photo site:
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/hx30/lst?.dir=/duramax
The CAT filter placement would appear to prevent
you from ever putting ATF in your tranny
:eek:
Is it going to be hard to access your tranny dip-stick?
DURA-MAX3
02-12-2003, 11:15
well i guess i'm going to be the test dummy. I am going to put mine before the factory filter, use the cat system with screw on filters, for no other reason than i have personally ran these filters on trucks that i have put 500,000 miles on. I find it hard to believe that Caterpiller, the leader in Large diesel engines, and gas compressor engines would spend 1.5 million in developing a 2 micron filter and overlook something like fuzzies on the threads. Thats just my opinion and is not intended to influence anyone.
DURA-MAX3
From your previous posting.... here are the CAT part numbers
you have given us so far. When those parts come in today,
please let us know if these numbers are correct. Thanks.
1. Filter plate part# 120-4282
2. Hi efficiency 2 micron fuel filter part#1R-0751
3. Prime pump{manual} part# 105-2508
4. Prime pump gasket part# 1P-0436
Any filter element has a potential for contamination during production, pure and simple.
My machined base as installed on my truck is RAW. This is the one that I used for my testing. Production units will be electro-polished AND anodized to remove any "fuzzies" and improve the surface finish.
The media used in the element is claimed at 98.5% efficient vs. 98% for the Baldwin equivalent to the Cat filters which is claimed to be far superior to the Cat unit in this bulletin: http://www.baldwinfilter.com/engineer/98_2.html I guess the efficency has been increased with the combination of microglass and cellulose. The additional benefit to the element that I chose is that it has a water shedding coating so IF free water is present it will not absorb into the media where it can freeze and heave the media to pieces.
John K you could have a point. You deal in a lot more diesel processes than I ever will and I truly respect your directions. I usually always email you and ask for direction when doing things I am not sure of.
I to have a hard time beleiving CAT would put any of their engines in harms way such as the filter contamination. I will be going to CAT this afternoon and will ask that specific question about the threads.
I haven't found the place I am going to put the filter yet. The picture in my album site was supplied to me by another member who is doing the same thing. If you look closely you will see the filter unit is just sitting there at this point not bolted on.
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[ 02-12-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
chuntag95
02-12-2003, 13:20
JK,
Is your going to mount in a similar position to the one in that picture refered to above? Are you going to carry the spare filters as well?
John,
I couldn't open up the link
http://www.baldwinfilter.com/engineer/98_2.html
Another one possibly? Thanks.
56Nomad,
Try the link again ... I was just able to access it...
Thanks.... my server must have had a brain fart :rolleyes:
It works now
biglouieky
02-12-2003, 14:39
Has anyone heard if another filter company such as Baldwin will be making a 2 micron filter to fit our trucks soon?
DURA-MAX3
02-12-2003, 14:51
the questions just keep rolling in...
Since October there have been approaching 400 posts in at least 3 forums on this filter issue.
I have forgotten much because I am preoccupied with other matters so I have a few questions to help clear things up for me and possibly others.
Did we not check and then confirm the oem Racor filter was a 2-mic? Or is it a 5-mic? I thought Parker/Racor told me 2-mic.
Is there any evidence that GM thinks the oem filter is inadequate?
Are there tech bulletins addressing injector related issues caused by oem filter issues?
It seems that there are several directions by forum members regarding these filter issues. Here are a few:
1) To eliminate dealing with the oem filter or at least DELAY dealing with it as long as possible. This is my reason for my pre-filter. The oem is crammed in there and user/servicer unfriendly in my view. This was the reason I put my Stanadyne between the fuel tank and the oem filter. I also think it will be less of a warranty hurdle when installed in this manner but that is opinion only. This is simply a pre-filter to the oem system.
Of course a consideration was economics. The Stan people told me and apparently Todd as well that we should be able to go 6-7k miles without changing and the filters are fairly economical. Time will bear out whether this is true or not but I can say this- they have sold thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of these type filters with much success.
2) Profit motive. I want all of you DP member retailers to be successful but I frown on being e-mailed and warned against buying what I want only to have a recommendation made that what you got is better. There is not enough data to prove this out in my view. Plus, I'm a big boy and can make my own assessments and decisions, thank-you-very-much.
3) System improvement. I truly believe JK is trying to improve the fuel filtration system on the DMax. I guess the bottom line is I just don't understand (why) the need to do so as I illustrated above with my questions.
Frankly, these threads seem to have gotten more complicated than the issues the filters and filter systems MAY or MAY NOT possibly address.
You guys set me straight 'cause I got money I ain't spent yet!
:D
My idea is this:
The OE filter should be changed at the recommended intervals and used as the pre filter. The secondary filter then has an even lighter duty. As George put it: "Sending a MAN to do a BOYS job"
pinehill
02-12-2003, 17:44
TraceF,
You're right, there's almost an information overload on this topic. Some things, though, remain very clear to me:
1. A number of our membership are seeing premature injector failure. I consider any injector failures prior to 150K miles to be premature.
2. We know that the Bosch injector system was designed for fuel much cleaner than we have here in the U.S.
3. George Morrison has seen badly worn injectors, with the wear directly attributable to dirty fuel.
4. We all know that we frequently see products which are "rated" for performance levels which they really don't satisfy, ie, Racor OEM 2 micron.
5. It's not always the case that GM issues tech bulletins in a timely manner for problems which owners KNOW exist, and for which GM has been spending a lot of warranty dollars. A case in point is the steering rattle, which existed for 2-3 years before the bearing fix TSB was issued. I won't be a happy camper if I've had to pay out-of-pocket for a set of injectors before GM faces up to the problem and issues a recall on the OEM filter system.
6. John Kennedy is the only one here developing an auxilliary filter who has published COMPLETE and excellent filtration test results (on his website).
Here are a couple of quotes from Geo. Morrison from the other thread called Fuel Test Results:
"Fuel filters are constructed by human beings (except for the CAT fuel/oil filters which are totally robotically manufactured and incredibly flawless)"
"If only we could get CAT to expand its filter line we would have that filtration level.. But, CAT recognized the lack of quality fuel filtration and had to go out and build a factory to make filters capable of achieving the level of quality/filtration needed for maximum fuel system life."
Seems to me what Geo. is saying is if we can get a CAT filter to work on the Duramax we would have accomplished our mission clean fuel.
Or am I missing something here?
smile.gif
pinehill-
Thank you for getting my eye back on the ball.
I think JK is far ahead of the rest of the pack. As I said earlier, I am anxious to see the results.
You guys brought up a reason why GM faltered on this for a good reason.....
Just imagine if GM'S engineers stepped up to the plate and pushed an idea thru on correcting the American fuel quality issues with the German Bosch Fuel Delivery System to make it more reliable long term.....The idea is a pre-filter and or a finer stand alone user friendly, 2 micron system that needs to be replaced in 6 to 7000 miles..... :rolleyes:
Maybe you new arrivals don't know what GM charged for the fuel filters when the Duramax first came out !!!!!!!! Triple digits !!!!!! :eek:
Cha Ching $$$$ !!!!!!
Two Dealer changes at their price ,prior to the filters getting into the hands of distributors from the manufacture, bought a Better kit being engineered tested and developed here....So keep at GENTS !!!!!!
MAC :D :D :D
LanduytG
02-12-2003, 21:04
Here are test results of the Racor filter system that I have on my 95 6.5TD. This was put in on the frame as Todd and others have done.
http://www.lubespecialist.com/racor/fueltest.htm
As you can see by the first test which was taken at the pump where I fill 95% of the time, it is good quality fuel but very dirty. Georgwe told me this is very typical of high volume stations. Total parts per gallon was over 34 million and the filter knocked it down to 1.9 million. It took the 2 micron from 8787 to 502. The 5 micron it did real well on as well.
For those that think I am pushing the Racor I have my reasons. First of they are readly available and secondly I feel more comfortable knowing that I can have a heater if needed.
I have nothing against Cat its just that they are harder for some to get a hold of. I am in the process of developing a system for the VW TDI and Cat is the only compnay that makes one small enought to fit the Golf/Jetta.
If Baldwin is good thats great, I was not aware they had this quality of a fuel filter.
As for putting a filter in post OEM, yes that is best but getting it done is another thing. 2001 Dmax has plenty of room under the hood and new lines can be run and it looks good. But the same setup is not possible on the 02 and I have not worked with the 03 and I bet its worse yet.
I will have samples from the post OEM in about 10 days or so and I bet it is as good a results as any here.
Bottom line here is how easy can we install a system that is effective. With the frame mounted pre OEM way its plug and play. I don't think it would take 30 mins to install.
By the way the filter on my truck has 12K on the Racor R45S. So 10K should be easy to do with what ever filter you choose.
Thats just my .02 worth.
Greg
[ 02-12-2003: Message edited by: LanduytG ]</p>
Well, I made the leap and ordered the assembly
from CAT and will take a look at it when I get I
pick up the parts.
Thanks DURA-MAX3 and ccds for chasing
down part numbers!
I plan on installing it as Todd and TraceF have
done with their Stanadyne filter assemblies.
That being under the truck, along the frame rail
and thus it will function a 2 micron"pre-filter"
I am locating it there as there is easy access and it's
not too difficult to install. I'll use a local hose shop
to make my flex lines.
Good news is that if this works well, I can still order
my replacement filters (Baldwin) from JK. I have read
everything George Morrison, as well as what John has
written in so many lengthy strings.....all excellent
advice and input.
Bottom line is that I think JK's filter set up is probably
going to be the best way to go for so many good reasons
outlined in previous postings, but I decided I did not want to
wait..... and using the CAT assembly at this time is a reasonable
solution for my needs.
DURA-MAX3
02-12-2003, 22:48
Well its a change of plans for me, found out the 3126 filter plate has an extra hole in the top that is hollow all the way to the bracket, so i reordered the one for the c-15 engine. Its the one someone posted a pic from someone elses web site, I think he called it Cat 2 or something, also found out that they make a plate that eliminates the need for the prime pump. Everyone says that the one on the factory filter worked even on the added filter, so i am not getting it.I will get this stuff tomorrow and will post pics on friday hopefully. Cat rep and 3 techs all said that there should not be any trouble with clogging since the flow rate is much less than these filters were actually designed to do. When i asked about the fuzzie's some are concerned about they said they have not heard af that giving any trouble or causing any failures. 1 tech even went out and got a filter and plate and screwed it on tight then removed it in front of me, no fuzzie's at all. So i don't know. Guess i'll believe my eyes on this one...Later...Robert...
DURA-MAX3
I posted the pic's of both base filter units.
The first CAT filter parts would have worked fine but I took them back yesterday and ordered the filter base I had identified as 2nd CAT filter. The 2nd CAT filter will work better for my application.
I am looking at putting it between the OEM filter and the injector pump but if I can't find a reasonable place to put it I will be going the route you are and mount it ahead of the OEM filter.
The CAT people said the samething about the "fuzzies" as the CAT people you spoke to.
Guess we just wait and see.
I am away for a week now and will have to wait to install the unit when I get back.
Would appreciate pictures of your install once you are finished.
thanks
smile.gif
GM Smitty
02-13-2003, 06:54
I think everyone will agree that the most logical place to put a 2 micron fuel filter is AFTER the OEM unit. The problem is finding a place to mount it, and even if we can find a spot, how hard will it be to change the filter, and will it restrict access to other areas in the engine compartment. Mounting the filter back by the fuel cooler on the frame is just so easy to do, and access to the unit for changing the element is unobstructed. If in a jam (side of the road, raining, cold, etc.), I'd much rather change the Racor unit I installed on the frame under the truck than the OEM unit.
I've got 1000 trouble free miles so far with the Racor unit, and am anxious to see if I can go every other oil change (8000 miles) for the "secondary" fuel filter change. I still keep spare fuel filters for both units in the truck at all times, because we know Mr. Murphy likes to show up at wonderful times. ;)
Just want to thank everyone here for the LOADS of information on this topic. I'm also looking forward to hearing about JK's set up once it's out, I'm sure it will be first class.
Josh
The fuzzies are a good reason for putting the Cat filter pre-OEM. The OEM would catch it.
DURA MAX3 and ccds-
I think the so-called fuzzies JK is concerned about are hundreds, if not thousands of micro particles left over from the machining process. You won't see these with the naked eye.
I've been told that the Cat elements are actually cellulose material. This MAY not be correct, but you never know...
John,
The CAT web site states their filters are a "Synthetic/Cellulose" blend...
http://www.cat.com/products/shared/parts_n_service/04_filters/fluid_filters/_filters/high_eff_fuel_filters.html
smile.gif
JK:
The only thing I could find about the CAT filter media is it is a cellulose/synthetic blend.
"High Efficiency Fuel Filters are specially designed for today's higher injector pressures and precise components, using a super-fine filtration media to remove more than 98 percent of particles 2 microns and larger."
http://www.cat.com/services/shared/parts_n_service/04_filters/fluid_filters/_filters/high_eff_fuel_filters.html
Bill:
we must have been searching the same time for the same info... smile.gif
smile.gif
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
George Gozelski
02-13-2003, 10:51
Carli_max, I really like your idea but I think by the time someone builds us a CORRECT SINGLE filter, we will be old and gray!
That being said, have any of you Dmaxer's thought about scrapping the factory system and installing a larger than factory CAT type system for a single application? The larger the filter (especially the deeper ones) the longer between changes and the more water it will hold.
Personally, living in Alaska and having the crappiest fuel in the nation, water hasn't been the problem for me; just the dirty fuel!
I think we are all concerned about this matter and rightly so due to the high cost of a new fuel pump or injectors.
I may wander down to our local CAT dealer and explain my dilema and see what he can come up with. If I find anything earth shattering I'll let everyone know.
Thanks for all of the good info and everyones hard work!
ccds
Can you or anyone else please give me a part number
for the base you show in your second CAT photos at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/hx30/lst?.dir=/duramax
Based on the photo's it will support the CAT Hi efficiency
2 micron fuel filter part#1R-0751 as well as the CAT manual
prime pump. The CAT dealer cannot identify it...... thanks.
BTW the CAT filter plate part# 120-4282 is not a good
application if you are planning to install the CAT manual
prime pump because there is no housing or opening for
it to work.
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
ChevysRus
02-13-2003, 12:55
Well here's a new wrinkle for ya!
Yesterday it was announced here in California that by settlement with the CALF State Attorney general's office GM was extending fuel injection system warranty on every car and truck sold n California to 150,000 miles. estimated cost to GM is $100,000,000 buckero's and the stock dropped $2.00 a share on early trading.
Seems there is an "issue" with GM Fuel Injection systems and it might be more than just the fuel filters.
As soon as I can get my hands ona copy of the actual settlement ruling I will pass it on!
I hate this State,they are always in your face with new rules or taxes, but then good things happen every once in a while.
Meantime it's illegal to de-claw your cat and you can't be a pet owner, you have to be a Pet Guardian for christ sakes!! Not to mention the thousands of other idiotic laws and ordinances. Then there is the DMV a whole other sad situation.
Hey maybe I need a filter to screen out all this stuff I am exposed to LOL :mad:
Could we please move this topic to..
http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=005185
I'd really like to see this string deal with CAT
filter conversion questions..... It is so lengthy at it is. Thanks.
I posted the entire news story ...it is
200,000 miles and only for vehicles sold in California :mad:
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
56Nomad:
The CAT literature is now posted on my photo site
with a list of part numbers and pictures of the unit. I have circled the part numbers I had to buy but I will list them here to:
CAT# 9S4182 PLUG
CAT# 6V5048 SEAL O RING
CAT# 1415138 BASE
CAT# 1P0436 Gasket(fuel primer pump
CAT# 6N-4414 Cover - filter base
Hope this helps
smile.gif
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]
[ 02-14-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
Many thanks......
I will be adding the manual primer pump to the
CAT base so I would not need the cover if I get this base.
It appears that the height of this primer+base+filter will stand
a total of 12 inches.
I have one more trip to the CAT dealer to see
if they have a base to for the 2 micron 1R-0751 filter
which will hold the primer pump in a perpendicular direction.
This would reduce the total height of the unit, putting it
below the frame rail plus make the primer pump a bit
more accessible.
I know we could use the factory primer..... but it is a
long way from where I will be putting this filter assembly
on the fuel line and it seems a long way to draw a prime.
That is my reason to add this primer.
I'll keep ya posted smile.gif smile.gif
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
56Nomad:
The OEM primer draws from the rear tank anyways
so you should not need to install another primer.
The OEM will work fine, just take a few more minutes to pump thats all.
I am off to see where I am going to put this filter base and filter. If I can't find a spot suitable after the OEM I am thinking of doing like 56Nomad and put it under the truck ahead of the OEM.
smile.gif
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
ccds,
My data shows CAT #1P-0436 as being the Gasket for the CAT Cover #6N-4414. Please confirm.
DURA-MAX3
02-13-2003, 23:56
Ardmore you are right on the part number correction...
Here is the part numbers you will need to install the Cat filter. The only thing you will have to do is go to the local parts store and buy the hose, fittings, and clamps. What i am listing is the things you need to order from cat.
FILTER BASE.......1N-3789
FUEL FILTER.......1R-0750 SHORT OR 1R-0749 TALL
GASKET.....1P-0436 (GOES BETWEEN COVER PLATE WHEN REMOVING PRIME PUMP)
COVER...6N-4414 (REPLACES PRIME PUMP)
PLUG...9S-4182...(FILLS EXTRA HOLE IN FILTER PLATE)
SEAL O RING...3J-7354...(GOES ON PLUG,EXTRA HOLE)
BOLT...8T-0640...(COVER)
BOLT...6V-5218...(COVER)
WASHER...5P-0537...(PUT ON BOLT LISTED ABOVE)
WASHER...9M-1974...(PUT ON BOLT LISTED ABOVE)
Order all these parts and you will have everything you need from Caterpillar...I should note that the cover has two diffrent size holes in it to keep you from installing it backwards, hence the two different size bolts and washers. The gasket also has one hole bigger than the other so look closely before installing. The total price of the parts i got was 110.50 including tax... the total height of the system with the short filter is 9 7/8 inchs tall... If there is any other questions, i'll try to answer tomorrow... Robert...
56 Nomad,
You're correct about the thread size difference between the 1R0751 and 1R0749/750.
Using the Baldwin site cross-reference I found the following:
1R0749 = Baldwin BF7587
There has been a lot said about warranty issues, dealer issues, etc.
There has been a lot said about unpluging hoses, tucking hoses. hiding fuel lines, etc.
I can't get comfortable with this filtation system being in the engine compartment. The pictures of the cat being possibly bolted to the firewall is the worst place to install in my opinion.
You are going to have a dealer issue everytime you go there if you hide it, they find it, and it is obvious you were trying to deceive them.
Whatever system turns out to be best I will buy, probably from JK it seems, but I am still going to figure out how to tap it into the fuel line under the truck. This line has a flex hose on either end, can obviously be had probably reasonably priced and the botom line is I just feel better about the filter being there.
There have been several comments about post oem being better. To this I say baloney. The system is designed with a single filter as is almost every passenger vehicle that I am aware of.
Good efficient fuel filtering is the key (and the goal) and pre-oem or post-oem is going to accomplish the same thing in my view.
I still like the idea of messing with the oem less frequently.
Ardmore you are correct I had the wrong CAT # for the gasked and cover.
Sorry about that I was in a hurry and Murphy's Law always steps in. That is why I posted the spec sheets from CAT.
I to am changing my mind about putting the filter between the OEM filter and the pump.
I spent a couple hours last night and could not come up with a suitable spot for the CAT filter that I was satisfied with.
I am now going to place the CAT filter in line under the truck as others are doing. I am going to have the hoses built today to do the installation up under the truck frame.
smile.gif
[ 02-14-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]
[ 02-14-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
ccds-
Photo's man! Photo's!
56Nomad:
YOUR QUESTION to DURA-MAX3
"Is your filter base (1N-3789 )the same that in the photos which ccds
shows at #2 CAT filter at
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/hx30/lst?.dir=/duramax"
FILTER BASE.......1N-3789
FUEL FILTER.......1R-0750 SHORT OR 1R-0749 TALL
It is not...the one I show in my album is for filter 1R-0751
jbplock has a good point about filter 1R0750 & 1R0749 & I quote from his post:
"It's interesting to note that the descriptions of these filters on the Baldwin site state there is an "integral post seal' for the 1R749/50 type filters with the 1-14 thread. The description of the 1R0751 type filter does not have the "integral seal" statement."
The seal in the 1R749/50 is the seal (I think) that JK is talking about. Maybe this is the unit to use if it does have the seal. I am going back to CAT this morning to have a look at DURA-MAX3 parts before I go ahead and install mine.
If the parts that DURA-MAX3 has posted does have the seal and will work the way I want, then I will order those parts for my prefilter system.
WOW...this simple project has turned into a lot of foot work and good information....when its all over it should be a simple process.( I hope )
smile.gif
Not sure about the height of the different bases for the filters 1R-0749, and 1R-0750, as compared to the base for the 1R-0751, however, as JK has previously noted, one can obtain a seal between the filtered/unfiltered fuel simply by adding an O-ring to the filter threaded mounting lug.
DieselDo'er
02-14-2003, 09:59
Just a little info for you all. When they talk about microns as far as what a filter will filter out 1 micron is a metric equivilant to a english measurement of .00003937. A human hair is approx. .003 thick. Now imagine if you took a hair and split it 76 times, if my math is right is one micron. So the "fuzzys" JK is talking about the human eye would not be able to see. In fact if you were to machine a part with a tolerance of plus or minus 5 microns you would have to let a part normalize to a specific temp after the machining is done in a extremely clean and enviromentally controlled atmospere to be able to measure that tolerance. I have machined parts that just by holding the part in my hand as changed size as much as .0003 depending on size and density. So by somebody screwing on a filter than unscrewing it to see if it shed any debris would not do you any good. The polishing and plating JK is doing to the machined surfaces makes sense. That is if that is what is meant by filtering down to 2 microns, if not please somebody correct me if I am wrong?
Brian
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: DieselDo'er ]
Edited to correct my math and comparisons.
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: DieselDo'er ]</p>
I took a new out of the box CAT filter and did the "white glove" test
on the internal threads. No question...... an extremely fine
metal colored dust showed up on the white cloth. Same on the
new filter base. Easy solution will be to carefully clean both parts
before installation and apply clean lubricant before screwing the
filter on. I really don't see this as a problem if care is used each time
the filter is changed.
Also, never....ever prefill the filter with fuel before installation, as
you'll be contaminating the filter surface which is supposed to be the
clean side of the element. That dirty fuel will go directly into the
injectors. In my case it would flow to the factory filter first.
[ 02-14-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
a64pilot
02-14-2003, 10:47
Question,
These fuzzies would occur prior to the fuel passing throught the filter, right?
If this is true then the filter will catch any harmful fuzzies.
I've been using screw on fuel filters on Diesels for years and never considered wear between the filter threads and housing, maybe this is another good reason to wait until a pro with more testing facilities and economy of scale on his side develops an aftermarket filter system.
Of course it depends on the final price of such a system. ;)
DURA-MAX3
02-14-2003, 11:03
The filter part number i was going to order was the 141-5138, i actually got one and did not like it. Go get one of each and you will see what i mean. If you go and get the part numbers i posted, get the parts in your hands you would see how easy this really is. I have the parts right in front of me and wow how much easier can it get. the difference in filters is the size, there is a long and a short for each different filter base...The one i am using is for the 1R-0750(SHORT)OR 1R-0749(TALL)...
pinehill
02-14-2003, 11:06
DieselDo'er,
You're right, a micron is pretty damn small. You've got a couple of extra zeros in there, though.
A micron is a millionth of a meter. So, since a meter is 39.37 inches, a millionth of that is 0.00003937. Human hair varies from about 75 to 175 microns, depending on which part of the body you're looking at :eek: .
Another factoid is that the feature size of some of the microcircuits we see in consumer electronics is now down to 0.5 microns, so small that an electron microscope is required to see them.
[ 02-14-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]</p>
The white glove test mentioned above is on the supposed CLEAN side of the filter! :eek:
The integral post seal will engage the "snout" of the threaded adapter prior to contacting the threads. Provided the filter is not removed/reinstalled the ONLY dirt on the clean side should be what is inside the filter at assembly. All generated particles from the threads will remain between the threads and the post seal.
The particles present will MULTIPLY when the threads are engaged...
DURA-MAX3
02-14-2003, 12:28
Todd::::: Would it be possible to get the dimentions you used for your bracket. I can't seem to get time in the daylight to do it, and when i do its raining...Thanks so much...Robert...
Ok I have posted the CAT documents in my album as 3rd CAT filter. This is the filter system DURA-MAX3 recommended and I have change to.
If you enlarge the pic's and then click full size you can read the doc's with no problem.
The only trouble I had this morning when I went to CAT is the USA filter head is standard thread and the Canadian model is metric so the bolts listed by DURA-MAX3 did not work in the candian model. I will go get some metric bolts to fit.
I am going to mount the filter unit by bolting a 21/2"x1/4 alum. angle 4" long along the top of the truck frame & then bolt the filter head to the alum angle. This will keep it high in the truck frame to elimate damaging it.
If you want to see how small microns are if you go here:
http://www.cat.com/products/shared/parts_n_service/04_filters/fluid_filters/_filters/high_eff_fuel_filters.html
Take a look down the page at the yellow circle..that is a human hair 80 microns, the black circle inside the yellow circle is talcum 15 microns, the small black dot is 2 microns.
sure hope this helps
smile.gif
DURA-MAX3
If you are asking Todd (srubrn) I'm not sure what he used but mine is installed in the same place and I used a 3 or 4" scrap of 2x2x 1/4 aluminum angle stock.
Worked great. Left about 3/4" above the primer so I could get a few fingers up there to pump it. I put it on top of the frame rail with the face of it towards the driveshaft.
I drilled 4 holes in it. 2 for the filter base and 2 for the frame. Then I drilled 2 holes in the top of the frame rail. Took maybe 40 minutes to install.
GMC-2002-Dmax
02-14-2003, 16:32
JK and others,
I have a question, maybe not a question but an observation.
1) It seems that the goal here is to filter the fuel as clean and contaminent free as possible.
2) We don't want fuzzies :eek:
3) Everyone is concerned about warranty issues and cutting fuel lines , etc.
Why doesn't some one with the understanding of these problems design a bypass filter block??? Bolt it where the stock filter is and bypass to.....a remote filter block, say under the truck where it is easily accessable!!!!
They are available from amsoil and others co's for oil, why not bypass the stock housing and remote mount two filters in succession.
One with say a 5-15 micron tolerence and then a 2 or less micron filter after the primary???
If there is a will there is a way. Maybe someone can figure out a way, I would be first in line to buy one if it were set up like that.
GMC :D
I like this idea. Oem filter first then 2-mic.
JK- this could be your premium unit.
Make it with a see thru bowl on the final though.
Also with a plug in extension for the factory water sensor.
You know the old saying- 857 minds are better than one. :D
[ 02-14-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
Well I finally have all the parts from CAT to install the unit DURA-MAX3 listed. It uses the larger spin on thread and you can put an O-Ring on the thread to make the seal so we get no
"fuzzies"
I will post pic's of it later tonight before I install it.
WOW...what a guy won't do for fun...... smile.gif
My last post talked about the Canadian CAT dealer.
Well it turns out that the filter unit is Standard thread and the bolts CAT gave me(which were the part numbers from DURA-MAX3 list) were
metric. So I now have the standard bolts to put the unit together.
smile.gif
56Nomad
Does the Base Assembly #112-6521 have a "bleeder screw/bolt"? I assume it does, but could not tell from your photo's.
Some are missing the point:
An integral post seal is INSIDE the filter and seals to a machined "snout" at the end of the filter nipple. An o-ring outside of the filter will do no more than POSSIBLY seal the threads provided it is thick enough to contact properly and thin enough to allow the outer ring to seal. Once liquid hits the dust in the threads, it will wash into what is SUPPOSED to be clean fuel! :eek:
It is kinda hard to "bypass" filter fuel, especially when under vacuum. I think that in the end, I will leave the actual plumbing decision with the end user. Fuel can either go to the oe filter first, and then the secondary, OR the secondary can be used as a primary and then to the OE....
SoMnDMAX
02-15-2003, 02:51
Dura-Max 3-
According to the Caterpillar blueprint for the 1N-3789 filter housing, the 8T-0640 and 6V-5218 bolts are not the correct ones for the assembly. The threads in the housing for retaining the prime pump or cover plate are 5/16-18 and 1/4-20, NOT the M8x1.25 (8T-0640) and M6x1.0 (6V-5218) bolts you listed. Unless something has changed since revision level 07 came out, this is the correct info. Rev 07 was the highest level on the system at work.
A 5/16-18 x 1 1/4 bolt and a 1/4-20 x 1 bolt will work fine. I do not have the proper Caterpillar number for the fasteners.
Just a heads up.
SoMnDMAX
you are absolutly correct. That is the problem I had yesterday when I went to buy all the parts from CAT. The bolts did not fit as they are metric and the filter base is standard thread.
JK thanks for the clerification on the seal, I don't think this 3rd model has the ability you talk about. It is the same looking as #2 & #1 filter base I got.
smile.gif
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
Has anybody out there tested these CAT filters with a fuel sample yet. Are we just trusting that these are the superior filters? Before I change what I have I would like to know. Believe it or not my sample that I sent off leaked and there was not enough to sample. I am going to try again.
DieselDo'er
02-15-2003, 12:05
Thanks Pinehill
I stand corrected, I checked my machinist handbook last night and it confirmed what you said. My above post has been corrected.
It sure is amazing that the minute particles can be causing so much damage.
Picked up a flier at the Furd dealer about their new diesel. They claimed to have carbide plungers in their injectors for better wear because of the dirty fuel. This leads me to believe the that they (the big three) do know about injector failure and are just gambling on them just outlasting their warantys.
Brian
Big screen 1st to catch the "sticks and stones"fine screen 2nd to get the small stuff.
If you put the finer filter first(say that fast 3 times)you're going to plug it up sooner and you end up with a single filter system like you already have.I think it would negate a lot of the benefit of filtering something twice since the factory filter is not very good down at the 2 micron level and isn't that the number we are trying to hit? :confused:
LanduytG
02-15-2003, 14:00
Todd
Over on the VW TDI forum the Cat filter has been tested at it works. I would have to dig up the test analysis but I think it was in the 98% range on 2 micron stuff. But for those in the north that are putting them down on the frame I think you need a heater. Although I know someone that has a 2 micron filter on the frame without a heater and was in zero weather out east last week and didn't have a problem. But then again he might have been lucky.
Greg
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: LanduytG ]</p>
Greg:
I was in 2 shops yesterday with same concern for the heater. The one shop was CAT and the other was a shop that does a lot of refits for a large oil service company here in Canada. They both told me the cold we get here will not affect the operation. I guess I am going to find out because I have all the parts and am ready to do the install of the CAT filter. I am busy this weekend as it is a holiday here on Monday so I will have to wait till Tuesday to install the unit.
I will post pic's once I am finished.
Thanks for everyone's help
smile.gif
george morrison
02-15-2003, 14:55
Todd, I forwarded you the 'before & after'for a CAT fuel filter. The results were for the CAT alone, no supplemental filtration. The CAT and the John Kennedy filters are the only supplemental filters I have seen to date that achieve an acceptable target cleanliness level.
I so wish we could post these analysis results for all to see.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
George- please send them to me too. Thank you in advance.
TraceF,
Check this link for graphs of Kennedy's fuel tests:
www.kennedydiesel.com/detail.cfm?ID=240
The results show an exceptional reduction in the contaminants using his MEGA-FILTER compared to the OEM single filter set-up. These results were obtained with the MEGA set-up as the secondary :eek:
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: mdrag ]</p>
Question on the Bar Charts. The Target Value for Bar 2 for > 5 micron particles for all three charts indicates a value of 00 but on the charts the height of the bar varies. If the value were 00, there would be no height to the bar. What are the correct values?
et,
Kennedy will have to give you the # to be sure. Looking at the 3 graphs and the scales, it appears the #2 light blue bars in each of the graphs would represent a value of 80. The positioning of the #s and font style make it difficult to pick out the exact #s.
The important info to take away from these graphs is that the OEM filter was 90% greater /50% greater than the target value for the >2 and >5 micron particle size :eek:
The OEM primary/KD Mega-Filter secondary was 47% LESS/ 28% LESS the target value for these same particles.
The OEM did it's job with the 'sticks and stones' particles >15 micron in size, with approx 9% improvement with the added KD Megafilter compared to the OEM only.
EDIT: Corrected %s
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: mdrag ]</p>
FirstDiesel
02-15-2003, 18:12
The reason the heights vary is the scale is different on each of the charts. I'm not sure if it's 00 or 80. It's a little hard to read but again the scale is different hence the difference in the heights.
I'm almost there......... :D :D
I mounted the CAT assembly with 1/4 inch angle iron on the
top of the frame rail.
This message is now edited as you see further down the string
I will not be using the CAT assembly, but rather the Racor setup.
Bracket picture with dimentions are at:
http://community.webshots.com/album/64032822eXTZxX
[ 02-18-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
Look at the third graph. The Target Value of the >5 micron particles does not look like 80 and the Actual Value of 58 is below the 50 line. Somethings not right.
After looking at both sets of Bar Graphs from Avlube and the Brenner Oil Co. is seems that both companies use the same software. The software is very poor quality. If you making any type of proposal for money, your conclusions would be very suspect since the numerical values look like they were hand typed and not computer software generated.
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: et ]</p>
BigLakeDMAX
02-15-2003, 22:17
Looks like a typical 3-D graph generated by MS Excel to me. Put JK's numbers into an Excel spreadsheet and graph it with the value labels, and you'll get exactly what you see on his website.
I'm impressed by the results of JK's filter and prefer the graphical presentation as opposed to a table of numbers. Actually, I like both but am easily entertained by bright colors and shiny objects.
Can't wait for the units to become available. I do just enough off-road to make me prefer an engine compartment mount and it makes sense to put your better filter after the lesser one. Now if only it includes braided stainless steel fuel lines with colored fittings...
et
if your talking about the target numbers I had to cut and paste them because they were outside the range of 81/2X11. I did write the word target on one of them.
I thought I was doing the members a favour by posting the info so everyone could see but the only 2 comments that were made about the info were both negative so I am taking them off. I don't want to cause any problems for anyone because they weren't my documets to begin with.
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
ccds,
I looked at the pics you posted of the CAT filter fuel test results, and it appears the CAT did a good job of cleaning up the fuel as opposed to the OEM only.
Thanks for posting them - I appreciated the opportunity to see the results.
mdrag
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: mdrag ]</p>
ccds,
My apologies,
I assumed, unforgivable on my part, that these graphs were generated by the oil analysis companies.
I too am very interested in the results of both your’s and John’s efforts to improve the quality of fuel entering our engines. I was confused by the graphs as the bars did not reflect the values shown correctly. If Microsoft Excel was used to portray the results I can understand the problem.
For many years, I did maintenance analysis for the Bell System. I created and reviewed all kinds of graphs and charts. As an engineer, I have been into computers since 1964. The only way to get a personal computer in the old days was to build your own. When printers became available, generally from cobbled teletype machines, you had to write your own printer driver software. Most of the programs us old timers used was self written. The really early programs were hard wired! When the heavens parted from the earth, software programs started to appear on the commercial market for personal computers. These programs quickly evolved into good solid products. Spread sheet software such as Lotus 123 with its graphic presentation ability became my greatest tool. I appreciated the work that these program writers had done.
Microsoft Excel started life as a badly plagiarized copy of Lotus 123. The Pacific NW Bell Company decided to adopt Microsoft Excel as their standard in-house spreadsheet. What they did not know and I and my cohorts did not tell them is that in order to get the data into Excel we had to use Lotus 123. Excel could not accept ASCI data. We also had to use Lotus 123 to graphically portray the results. One other problem with the early versions of Excel is that it purposely corrupted competitive spreadsheet files on the same computer. Good old Bill Gates. Over the years, Excel has gotten better but by the results of the graphs shown it is still not ready for prime time!
I realize that many people only know computers with the Windows Operating System. It has opened the computing world to many. But remember that Microsoft copied their operating system from pioneers at Zerox. The old management at Zerox failed to realize what their own engineers had developed and just gave it away.
Boy am I glad to get that off my chest!
Please ignore all of the above except for my apology and the thanks for your’s and the rest of the Diesel Page Members for the effort and data provided.
The reason I took them down was I didn't want to cause anyone problems as these documents were not mine to begin with.
If Geo Morrison could send me a note or post his ok here, I will post them again.(my mailing address is at the end of my signture)
Geo. the 2 items I posted were your results of Before and After CAT filter samples.
thanks
smile.gif
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
Regarding concerns about the lack of a heater with the CAT filter, I stumbled on a novel in-line fuel heater...
http://www.diesel-therm.com/diesel-therm.htm
The models listed don't look large enough for our 1/2 inch fuel lines so I sent them an email to see if they have anything larger(I'll post any replies). I'm also not sure if it's available in the US. Anyone know of any similar products?
smile.gif
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: jbplock ]</p>
jcopeland
02-16-2003, 09:07
Just to put my 2 cents in I have been running the Cat filter sence last november with no probablem. I sent several samples to George and the end result was very good. I have an 01 model truck and made my own mount. I've been told that the 02 and 03's were set up different from mine where I mounted mine. I have found out that you can get a algie grouth and not know it but thats a hole nother story.
Thanks Johnny Copeland
J Dawson
02-16-2003, 10:08
Jhonny where did you mount your filter? Is it after the factory filter? I have a 2001 also. The link to your pictures doesn't work.
LanduytG
02-16-2003, 11:34
Bill
I have two of the Diesel Therm units here. I have the filter mounted and the inline. Youcan get them from Germany but it will take about a month to get. What they are is glow plugs mounted into a banjo fititng arrangement.
I can't remember off hand but their is an american company that makes and inline heater and was very reasonably priced.
IMHO a heater might be over kill but its better to have one instead of having problems on the road.
Greg
BigLakeDMAX
02-16-2003, 12:37
My apologies as well if my last post was one of the ones considered negative. I'm most appreciative of everyone's work here and intended no negative meaning.
Looks like Racor makes a couple diffent types of in-line fuel heaters as well? I couldn't find them on the Racor site, but here's the website where I found them:
http://www.maesco.com/products/racor/r_dfh_intro/r_dfh_intro.html
Thanks again to ccds and everyone posting on this subject - you're really helping all Duramax owners with your info.
Would it be possible to make an adapter plate so the Cat filter could screw on where the OEM filter is, hence elimanating the OEM? I'm sure it can't be done or someone here would have thought about it already, but I thought I would ask. It seems that it would solve all the problems if it was possible.
Mr. Kennedy,
Can the oem manual filter assembly pump fuel into the Mega Filter and if so, approximately how long or how many pumps does it take to fill that drum?
Zap,
I have been wondering the same thing about installing the MEGA filter where the OEM is then having a simple hookup to go back to OEM if the truck needs to be brought in for service. An adaptor for the water sensor would need to be built where the drain is but it would sure solve the problem of finding a place to mount the unit. I guess we would need fuel test results though for a fuel quality comparison. Anyone have thoughts on this? What do you think John. :eek:
LanduytG
02-16-2003, 14:00
I have worked extensively with a couple of DP members on making and adapter. You would not believe the trouble their is with that idea. But yes it can be done but it would be cost prohibitive to do. However if it was done the water OEM water sensor could be ued and the OEM heater could be used.
Greg
jcopeland
02-16-2003, 15:50
I mounted my filter on the firewall between the battery and ac, I also made a mount orginaly to take the place of the OEM filter but you can not use the water detecting device and there is no drain on the CAT filter. I you were to get a big slug of water you would not know until it was too late. My filter is mounted after the OEM and there is no lift pump or any other primer pump needed. I use the OEM to fill both filters. Sorry about the pic. link they may have canceled me.
Greg,
What size are the Diesel-Therm units you have? Are they big enough to handle the 1/2 inch Duramax fuel lines?
BigLakeDMAX,
Thanks for the info on the Racor inline heater...
smile.gif
LanduytG
02-16-2003, 17:38
Bill
No i have the 8mm, you would want the 10mm for the Dmax. I bought these for a VW project. They are really cool units. I think that one could be made very easy.
Greg
Another question: With those of us who are or will be installing
the various filter assemblies (Stanadyne, CAT, JK) before the
the OEM filter....... some of the brass couplings/fittings that
I'm using with the hoses and the CAT filter base bisecting
our 1/2 inch (OD) fuel line, have inside diameters (ID) of
only 19/64" (7.54mm)
Senior mechanic at CAT said that this smaller diameter is not
going to be a problem in the fuel line or pose as a restriction.
Any comments from our experts......??
Thanks
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
56 Nomad,
If you haven't recently checked the FEATURE ARTICLE section - I'd suggest that you do so. MorePower posted an article about installing a Racor fuel filter as the primary/OEM secondary and describes the procedures etc. that he used.
mdrag
mdrag,
Sure is great to be a paying member :D :D :D
Thanks for directing me to the article
et,
How many pumps? 120+ to the best of my recollection! :eek:
Graphs: I have a new one done that shows all three levels. Keep in mind that the dual filtered setup was taken with a RAW filter mount and all of the associated remnants of the machining process. I'm sure that future samples will be even better yet!
A bear,
Missing the point here. I seriously doubt that any single filter applictaion will get the job done. It is a much better idea to run duals. Upon further review/discussion with George, I have decided to take a more neutral stance as to where the secondary filter is plumbed in relation to the OEM unit. While secondary makes much sense from a filtration standpoint, pre makes a lot of sense from a warranty/liability standpoint as the OE filter would be the last thing that the fuel sees...
As for hose, someone said stainless braided? It looks like I will end up cutting this stuff myself, so there's no way it will be braided with anything that will not be cut with a hose cutter. I figure to use a push on type hose like Trace F used in his pics. This is a clampless design. I'm still considering whether to use swivel type AN fittings at the mount or not...
The fuel system interruption was a big concern to me with the post oem filter assy. I may also send some fuel samples to George M to try and see if Todd and I made a wise choice on the Stanadyne system. If not I will be in line for the JK system, research done and proven is time saved in my view.
The push on hoses work great John. The dealer challenged me to pull one off, they thread it into a pipe with an elbow you stand on and pull. No budge.
Also, this is vacuum not pressure in the fuel system.
LanduytG
02-17-2003, 07:05
The most important thing about using push on fittings is to use the hose that is made for it. I have been using the parker hose and like TraceF said I challenge anyone to up it off. To make it easier to put on the fitting I warm it up with a heat gun and then soap it up. This works very well if you don't have excess to the tool to install the fittings.
Greg
DURA-MAX3
02-17-2003, 21:48
Finally got my bracket made for the Cat filter install. Has anyone put there's on yet, just wondering how much fuel leaked out when the line is cut. Thanks in advance...
DURA-MAX3,
As I mentioned in the other string, I measured the internal
fuel openings in the CAT filter base and they are smaller than
our 1/2" fuel line. The CAT interal fuel openings measure 7.94 mm so I
see this being a significant restriction. I think we need 9.53 mm (3/8" ID)
to match our fuel lines.
After reading the "Cleaner Fuel Racor 600 Series" article by Ritchie Hays at
in FEATURE ARTICLE section, I am concerned with possible restrictions with
the CAT filter base I selected (CAT Filter plate part# 112-6521).
See http://www.thedieselpage.com/feature.htm
Tomorrow I'll be bringing my CAT parts back for a refund because
of this issue.
DURA-MAX3, as I recall, you used a different CAT filter base.
Are the openings 3/8"? I measured mine with a drill bit.
Also, I made my support bracket out of 1/4" angle iron and
bolted it to the top of the frame rail where I drilled two holes
to hold the bracket. I have a picture of the
bracket with dimentions at:
http://community.webshots.com/album/64032822eXTZxX
[ 02-17-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
DURA-MAX3
I should have mine installed Tuesday night if all goes well so I can use my friends hoist.
send me an email(my address is at the end of my signature) and I will let you know how it goes
smile.gif
Lone Eagle
02-17-2003, 22:59
TraceF, There is no vacuum in the system. If the filter is lower than the tank there will be a very low pressure when not running. Pumps do not suck. They create a negative pressure on the inlet side. Atmosperic pressure charges the pump. Later! Lone Eagle
Nomad,
I ordered the FM-100 with 3/8" fittings simply because the 1/2" fitting head unit was out of stock. I have not had any problems with restriction. Been loaded with 10K runnning 75 to 80mph and can't tell it's on there.
GM has a special filter restriction gauge that is used to measure vacuum on the filter system...
John,
Do you have the P/N (cost ?) for thr GM Vac Gauge? Is this the one that fits the Schrader valve on the left front of the engine? Thanks!
smile.gif
Biodiesel6.6
02-18-2003, 12:55
I have one of these guages. The dealer had an extra one and I did some work in trade for it. They lost one and thought they left it on my truck when they were doing the filter test.I wasn't that lucky! The cost is about $200. Parts are available from Kent-Moore tools. 800-345-2233, you also might want to check with ontool.com, they cary some kent moore stuff. I'm not sure if this is the correct part numbers. A friend gave me this info to help me test filter plugging when using Biodiesel above 20%. The part number is J44638.
They also show two other tools. They are:
J42964-1 Fuel pipe shutoff
J44581 Fuel line disconnect tool.
Thanks Biodiesel6.6
I'm sure that the $200.00 tool is very nice but that is a little out my range right now (I'm still working my way down TraceF's worry list :D ). Anyone know of a lower cost shade tree mechanic's version of this tool? Maybe a Schrader valve adapter for a standard vacuum gauge? smile.gif
[ 02-18-2003: Message edited by: jbplock ]</p>
Lone Eagle- I stand corrected... I think... the past 4 posts confused me even further. The point I poorly stated was there was not significant pressure to worry about the push on fittings coming loose. They're really strong if properly installed.
Biodiesel6.6
02-18-2003, 17:35
When using the tool, you need to view inside the cab under load. At idel the gauge should read about 2. If the RPM is increased and no load the readings don't change much. Need to drive the truck and the gauge might go to 5. On new filter. As the filter collects s**t the reading under load will change.
When the gauge starts to read above 9 the filter should be changed. This is when the filter sets SES codes. Last month my truck just didn't feel right. I check the filter every 2 to 3 weeks in winter. It was due to look at. So I have me wife help. She in truck and I hook up the guage. She said what you do! What, It reads 23. No way!
With that reading It should have set the SES and been in limp mode. Changed filter and runs fine.
You could make your own guage and adapter if you install the post add on filter. If the Filter housing has a 1/4 plug or add a Tee. Use that to install the guage and hose needs to reach inside the cab to read the vacumnn from the system. Any air leaks you will have problems :mad:
But it can be done.
Lone Eagle, you confused me too. You said TraceF was wrong that there is no vacuum in the fuel system. Well, the negative pressure that a pump creates ,to which you refer, is a partial vacuum. Same thing. The slight pressure you refer to is head pressure. Pressure due to the difference in elevation of a liquid vessel and the point lower than the vesel where you measure the pressure of the fluid. Water has a head of about 5psi per ten feet. Since #2 has a lower specific gravity it would be somewhat less. A leak lower than the tank will result in the fuel leaking. Once the pump kicks in, then the atmospheric pressure will introduce air at the leak.
Budz
Are still talking about trucks or ya'll trying to explain the shuttle explosion. Sounds like rocket science to me.
It's just a filter!!!
Biodiesel6.6
When your Gauge is reading “2” at idle is that displayed in inHg or PSI?
The supply side of the injection pump is positive displacement and is always moving a specific amount of fuel based on RPM, so there is/should be little difference in peak suction readings whether loaded or not. What varies is what percentage goes to the rail, and how much goes back to the tank.
3 to 3.5"hg is common for a new filter at curb idle. High idle (3200rpm) should have little/no affect on the gauge IF the filter is not restrictive.
Lone Eagle
02-19-2003, 20:42
Budz, I didn't mean to confuse or start a new topic. A vacuum is a space with absolutely nothing in it. No fuel, air etc. Sinse our pump is positive it could pull a vacuum only if you plugged the inlet line. The commet I made about pumps don't suck came from my first day at a Sperry/Vickers hydraulic school. Your right on the elevation pressure. It is .43 PSI per foot. Doesn't make any difference. No pump but an air compressor will pump air. If you induce air you have airation. If we have too much suction head we have a serious problem called cavitation. Later! I am not an engineer just a retired Maintenance super. I hope I got all this right. Lone Eagle
torkinator
02-19-2003, 21:25
TDP virgin, so be gentle. I've been reading these filtration posts for months and you guys are making my head hurt. Feel like I've earned an honorary degree in dirt dynamics and will buy one of JK's units when available. In the meantime, I think I'll just buy a kidney dialysis machine and hook the truck up. Thanks to all of you for your work and thoughts on the filtration problem!
torkinator,
Welcome aboard...... Yes, JK's set up looks like a real good
option. Lots of subscribers hope it goes on line soon smile.gif
JK,since you won't email me back when is it going to be available? smile.gif
NW,
I'm in Ludington MI at the moment. 19 mpg first tank and 17 mpg second. Best ever for winter blend! X-mas trip was a best of 17mpg. Differences are: first trip was 4.35 (no timing) Juice and this one was 4.61.
I've seen someone else post that they felt they were seeing better mpg after installing aux filter, and I think that I may well agree! 19 mpg on winter fuel is outstanding for my driving!
Still working on some details prior to initiating a production run.
Oh yeah, I am sticking with the 2 micron filter but massively oversized so as not to pose a restriction...
I just posted my personal best of 17.25 also on the winter blend.Trucks got about 17k on it now.I'm thinking the FPPF Total Power and cetane boost combo may be helping too.JK, I'm assuming your testing the new filter now?
Blake
Well its all finished and working just fine.
The CAT filter I installed is identified as the 3rd CAT filter in my photo album. The pic's of the install are in the album called CAT Install.
All I can say is it has worked fine for 3 days now. The prime pump on OEM primed the whole system (both filters) with no problem at all.
I installed it ahead of the OEM filter so if anything (fuzzies) got into the the fuel the OEM would pick them up.
Thanks to all those members that helped along the way.
smile.gif
CCDS,
How about shooting me an e-mail giving your phone number? I want to ask you some questions about your install that woould take too long to answer on here. E-mail is below.
ccds,
Your set up really look nice!
Earlier you stated that the part number for the filter base is 1204282
and I still may go back to CAT and get that unit because it has no
restriction and is compatable with our 1/2" fuel line. After I had put
my CAT filter assembly together I discovered the model I selected
was too restrictive and so I returned it.
When I was putting my CAT filter project together, I was planning
to add a water separator with glass bowl preceeding this filter assembly.
My father-in-law is a farmer and I went over to look at his CAT tractors.
He has 4 models and each of his CATs have water separators before the
filters.
The built in water separator with both Stanadyne and Racor models make
them attractive choices. I believe that the filter that JK will be
using on his assembly has a water drain also.
I'll put the question out to the group: Since our OEM filter assembly
already has a water separator, for those of us who will be frame
mounting our filters, would it be best to have a primary water separator
or can we just rely on the OEM filter?
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
DURA-MAX3
02-21-2003, 11:30
ccds::: What kind of fittings did you use for your install. That looks like the same filter plate i am using. And also what hose did you use...Dura-Max3...
Forgot, how much fuel spilled when you cut the lines...Thanks...
DURA-MAX3
02-21-2003, 13:45
CCDS::: Just wondering how you determined which hole was the inlet and which one was the outlet... Cat told me the oppisite way you have your fuel lines hooked in the filter plate... They told me the lowest hole was the inlet and the higher hole was the outlet. If this is the case yours is hooked up backwards, so now i am confused on which is which... Talk to me brother...Thanks...
56Nomad,
FWIW, I've changed fuel filters at least 4 times. I've never had any water drain from the OEM filter, and never had the WIF light come on. Either I've been extremely lucky or the OEM is not separating... :eek:
I have been running Total Power from Kennedy for the last few changes, but definitely not on the first two filter changes.
I don't recall seeing posts on the WIF light turning on either...
Just food for thought.
>FWIW, I've changed fuel filters at least 4 times. I've never had any water >>drain from the OEM filter, and never had the WIF light come on. Either I've >been extremely lucky or the OEM is not separating...
mdrag,
Good point, same here.... no water found when I changed my filter.
Maybe, the OEM filter is not doing an adequate job in separating
out the water? :confused:
Being able to actually see any water in the Stanadyne and Racor seems like
a good option for those of us putting filters on the frame.
I have not been using additive and I had water in my OEM filter and in the Stanadyne FM-100. Go to this link and look at the pics.
http://www.oldmacksrus.com/filter_picts.htm
srubrn:
I will send you me phone # once I get home tonight...could be late about midnight.
56Nomad & DURA-MAX3
I am at work and don't have all the info with me but will post the info you are looking for then.
Sorry for the delay but I will get you the information:
smile.gif
srubrn,
Sure looks like evidence of moisture...
Did you have water present when you opened the filter drain? Did your WIF light ever come on?
mdrag
The lead tech at the dealer I go to has a 2002 DMax and he told me his WIF light came on and he got about 2 ounces of water out of the drain by opening it and pumping the primer. This seems like a lot of water, maybe that's what it takes to set it off.
I cut my first oem filter open and can offer to send pics but it looks almost exactly like Todd's pics except for where I made the cut. It had 5k miles on it and only about a teaspoon of water.
This CAT install looks good. The alum bracket is almost identical to mine. What I like about the Stan and the Racor is the see thru bowl.
I sure hope the Stan works out to be as good as I (and Todd) thinks it is.
Mdrag,
Yeah, a good bit of water, didn't measure. No light.
dpearl river
02-21-2003, 20:27
Well, as you can tell I'm new to the site. However, after 5 months of reading about the dirty fuel and need for a second filter I decided to tackle the job. I could not stand to see those little "2" micron particles race through the injectors each time I hooked the trailer to my truck. Since I have an aux fuel tank, which required that I splice the fuel line, I decided to install my CAT filter (1R-0751) beneath the passenger rear door. To slove the problem of rapid clogging with an absolute 2 micron filter I installed the Stanadyne 5 micron with lift pump and bowl. Kept the OEM filter in place to satisfy GM warranty. It might catch some water, which I doubt from the looks of the OEM Racor filter. After a run to Dallas without fifth wheel, no problems. Just got back from Key West towing fifth wheel and no problems with starvation or hesitation. Now I know the flats in Florida are not the Rockies! However, I have 3,436 miles on the filters with no problems. Should expect to change the Stanadyne more often then the Racor OEM recommended change out by book. I can't help believe that the fuel is cleaner.
PICs http://photos.yahoo.com/mybigredtruck20022002
dpearl river,
WOW! Now we have a CAT system with a water separator.
Only problem I have with your photo website is the
fat lady with the hula hoops :D :D
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
dpearl river,
I really like your setup. It is the best of all the worlds. I might think of doing that if the one Stanadyne filter I have does not do what it is supposed to do. The analysis will tell.
dpearl river
02-21-2003, 20:58
56Nomad,
Sorry about the hula hoops. You're right, a CAT with water separator. The individual at the CAT dealership recommends to the CAT engine owners to drain water weekly. So for, I have collected water, which I have drained weekly.
pinehill
02-21-2003, 22:24
dpearl,
Your setup appears to be very well designed and cleanly executed. I particularly like the shut-off valves and the fuel line loop between the 2 assemblies which will permit bypassing either assembly. Neat!
DURA-MAX3
"ccds::: What kind of fittings did you use for your install. That looks like the same filter plate i am using. And also what hose did you use...Dura-Max3...
Forgot, how much fuel spilled when you cut the lines...Thanks..."
The fittings are called "brass push on fittings"
that is what is on the invoice that I got from the hydraulic shop. I used the hose the hydraulic shop recommended...
Spillage was about 1/2 cup and was easily controlled
Cat told me that fuel flows down the outside through the filter and up through the center to the injector pump. This was confirmed by John Kennedy who advised by email.
Go here and see the flow:
http://www.davcotec.com/pages/seeinganim.html
Just click on the arrow and watch the show smile.gif
One thing I did do before I hooked up the rubber fuel line to the steel line to the OEM filter was put an air pressure nozzel in the fuel filler neck and plug the filler neck while putting air pressure in the tank. It filled the CAT fuel filter and the lines up to the connection to the steel line . This saved me using the primer pump to pump the fuel all the way through. It worked like a charm.
It was a simple operation to install. I have custom fuel lines ordered that will even make it look better. I will post those pic's once I have the custom lines installed.
Other than that it is up to each person to feel comfortable with the system that you choose to installed.
If you look at the before and after testing that I posted with the 3rd CAT filter pic's you can see for yourself the results.
To see the pic's better click on the thumbnail to enlarge, then go to the top right corner and click full size. You should now be able to see clearly any part of the pic.
Remember:
"The best exercise for your heart, is when you stretch your arm to help your fellow man"
smile.gif smile.gif
[ 02-22-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
dpearl river
How about giving me your email address or send me one, at address below. I am not that far from you, and work in Covington. I would like to see your setup firsthand.
dpearl river-
Help me understand more clearly what you have done. You sre using a CAT 2-mic fuel filter and a Stan 5-mic water seperator before it?
Todd- Is the same series filter we are using except 5-mic?
dpearl river
02-22-2003, 08:02
TraceF,
The Stanadyne is a 5 micron reverse flow with lift pump. (lift pump gives me priming capability with turn of ignition switch.) This filter serves as a pre-filter to catch the larger particles and preserve the life of the CAT. Also, the Stanadyne is a water separator filter with bowl for visual and manual maintainence. The CAT is a 2 micron filter. The OEM is just that an OEM Racor nominal 2 micron filter. When I spoke with the technician at Racor and they recommended a secondary filter for the DMAX I knew then we were in trouble. Of course they recommneded a Racor for the secondary. As you can see in the PICs, I have valves pre and post to avoid excessive loss of fuel. I can bypass the filters on the road if something were to go down. My fuel line was already spliced with installation of the aux fuel tank. My mounting bracket accomodates both fuel filters and the transfer valve for the aux tank (which is hard to see in upper left of pics). Hope this helps, if you need part numbers or additional info please let me know.
dpearl river-
I have the same basic set up Todd has so it would be easy to add the CAT.
One reason I didn't like the CAT approach alone was the lack of the bowl for visual inspection.
I haven't figured out how to have a photo album, tried Yahoo Photo but not up to speed yet.
If you e-mail me I will send pics of my install and you can comment but it looks to me like it would be very easy to add the CAT after my Stan.
Yes, I would appreciate all the part #'s. I'm sure they are spread throughout this forum but I have back tracked through it so many times it's making me blind. :(
Did you run any calculations on the lift loss or flow rate loss or restriction rate or whatever we are finally calling the potential restriction?
DURA-MAX3
02-22-2003, 11:24
CCDS::: does the fittings that go in the filter plate have little rubber o-rings on them.Thanks...
A couple of thoughts on dpearl river's set up. From the photos,
it looks like the Stanadyne w/lift is pretty tall and is at or below the
bottom of the frame rail. Once my system is in, I plan on fabricating
a skid plate to bolt onto the bottom of the frame rail. I do like the visible
water separator bowl/with drain feature and I do like the 2 micron
CAT filter.
But to be honest, it would seem that dpearl's set up might be overkill
for our needs, however, he may just have the cleanest fuel in the world.
In addition to the high initial costs to put dpearl's set up together...... if
I had done it, I know that I'd be actually changing all the 3 filters
probably much before their time. For me, who changes my oil and
other fluids much too much on my vehicles....... 3 filters are not going
to work.
The other issue as TraceF wonders, is how much fuel restriction
are we creating with the additional filters, bends, fittings, valves, etc.?
I have removed picts of my failed experiments with the CAT filter
base I selected as well as the Recor 400 filter base (with manual primer)
because they may have been too restrictive. Rather than confuse the
issue...... I think it's best to show set ups that are actually working and
functional on the trucks.
I plan on installing the Racor 600 Series and 2 micron filter
as Ritchie Hays has done at http://www.thedieselpage.com/feature.htm
I will post photos as soon as it's finished.
At this point in time, considering most of us are not trying
to nickel and dime this.... just trying to get a system that
will work. After all this is sorted out, perhaps there are going
to be several good options available to meet our individual tastes
and brand preference.
DURA-MAX3:
"CCDS::: does the fittings that go in the filter plate have little rubber o-rings on them.Thanks..."
Yes the fittings have 0-rings, if you go to the pic's under 3rd filter I just posted a picture of the in and out fittings. The filter head is the wrong one but the in and out fittings are right.
To see the pic's better click on the thumbnail to enlarge, then go to the top right corner and click full size. You should now be able to see clearly any part of the pic.
smile.gif
[ 02-22-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]
[ 02-22-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
dpearl river,
How about sending me your phone number via e-mail. You will find my e-mail address below.
wild bore
02-22-2003, 17:38
I know that everyone is keeping the stock filter for the WIF light and warranty issues. It seems to take alot of water to set the sensor off, as Trace posted.
I like the way dpearl river has his set up, but there are concerns of it being restictive.
Here is what I am thinking, will a cat filter fit on the stock mount. If it does, use a larger micron filter with built-in water seperator mounted on frame.
Or use dpearl`s set up and by-pass the oem filter.
Has anyone ask the dealer if not using oem filter would void warranty, it seems they may even like the idea. I think I will ask next week just to see.
Sorry if my ideas seem crazy, but I think the oem filter is just in the way.
wild bore,
No other filter will fit on the OEM filter base
except the one made for our engines manufactered by Parker/Recor :(
Wild Bore,
You might have missed something.
1. Pearl Rivers set up has a lift pump on top of the Stanadyne filter. That takes care of any restriction. Basically it is another fuel pump.
2.Racor is the only manufacturer of our fuel filter. It makes the OEM and the aftermarkets. Any other brand is a remarket of the Racor.
Not being ubly, just want you on the same sheet of music as us.
DURA-MAX3
02-22-2003, 19:09
CCDS::: Hey man could you give me a call on the land line and i will call you back, i have some question's i would like to ask you so i can possibly get mine installed tomorrow. I would apprieciate it... My number is 405-202-1537... Thanks so much, this is getting tiring trying to keep up with this thread...Robert...
wild bore
02-22-2003, 19:31
Dpearl posted to Trace that the lift pump gave him priming capabilities with the ignition switch. I didn`t know it was a fuel pump, I thought it was an electric primer.
Even so, would`nt that be the ideal set up and by-pass the oem filter? Then you wouldn`t need an extra pump, correct? smile.gif
GM Smitty
02-22-2003, 20:44
I think bypassing the OEM filter is REALLY asking for warranty troubles! :eek:
Adding a secondary filter might not get you in as much trouble with the dealer, but totally eliminating the OEM unit is definitely asking for trouble. As long as the OEM filter is the last thing the fuel sees before the pump, they can't really question if the quality of the fuel is to blame for a problem. Plus you'll lose the water sensor.
Josh
On the water/water in fuel light:
If you are trusting that this system will work using no additive or a demulsifying additive, you are playing Russian Roulette IMHO...
Has ANYBODY measured filter restriction yet???
John,
I must assume that the larger the fuel filter element is.......
the less pressure drop will occur.
I just found it....... george morrison wrote:
Nomad,
We don't have 60 psi, we have 60inhg, which is vacuum. I don't think there is a big issue of using one extra filter and worring about restriction. I'm doing it now and have no problems. The set up pearl river has, has a lift pump which is basic another fuel pump and it overcomes any restrictions that you might have.
I'm looking at the Spec sheet for the Racor 400 fuel filter
assembly (with Manual/primer). It says "These units
may be used on the vacuum or pressure side
of the fuel transfer pump. 30 PSI max for
under the hood or 60 PSI for chassis mount
applications" ......
Either sucking or blowing, a restriction is a
restriction, right (no lewd comments please) :D
I just looked up the conversion 60 inhg = XXXX psi(WRONG INFORMATION)
The Maximum Vacuum Level Attainable (inches Hg) is 29.921
CORRECTED 1.0"Hg = 0.4912 PSI
Thanks John..... basic physics 101
John, is that why you are more inclined to mount
your assembly under the hood?
[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]
[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
pinehill
02-23-2003, 15:08
On 2/10, John Kennedy posted (with regard to the OEM fuel filter),
"If the filter becomes restricted power will suffer, and an SES light may set.
"When the filter gets plugged, (by customer's experience)I have seen (to the best of my recollection) #PO 0070? large fuel leak detected and and #PO 0093? low rail pressure during power enrichment. This, of course is accompanied by a lack/loss of power.
"The OE element [fresh] will run at approx 3-3.5"hg at idle and barely flinch from this number at 3100high idle. I've seen 5"hg at idle rising to 7"+hg. at high idle in a 15k fuel filter!"
It appears that John is telling us that 7"+ is a problem (codes set & loss of power). 56Nomad tells us that the Racor manual primer adds 1 psi (about 2" hg) in ADDITION to the restriction of the filter cartridge itself, whatever that might be.
So now we have the OEM at 3.5" plus 2" plus whatever the Racor cartridge gives you, newly installed. That leaves maybe 1" to 1.5" of margin for restriction as the 2 filters load up.
Although no one has run these set ups long enough to know, it appears that the time before filter changes are required won't be very long.
pinehill
02-23-2003, 16:09
56Nomad,
The 30psi and 60psi (blowing and sucking) on the Racor spec. sheet are probably the maximum pressure/vacuum the filter element will tolerate before rupturing, i.e., not related to restriction.
FWIW, there is no such thing as 60"hg
60"wc (water column) is in the 2 psi range IIRC.
Long and short of it is this:
The factory hose is spongy CRAP. It can be squeezed shut easily.
The ECM will set a code if the actual rail psi cannot meet desired. This can be a P0093 large fuel leak detected (or similar) on 2001 models, and P1093 Low fuel rail psi during power enrichment on later models. Basically, the designated FRP regulator duty cycle isn't cutting it and the pressures aren't jiving...
While these codes are more common with pressure fooling boxes, they will also occur with fuel starvation issues as well.
I believe 10"HG is where the problems REALLY start, BUT if you have much more than 5", it has to be starting to restrict pretty good...
DURA-MAX3 and ccds
When you installed your frame mounted filters, did you
fill them with diesel before you screwed them into the
base assembly?
Or...... just use the factory manual primer to do the job?
Could you provide some detail of what the priming operation entailed. Thanks.
56Nomad
check your email ...you have mail
smile.gif
UPDATE:
I have been running with the CAT filter installed since Feb. 19. Todate I have not encountered any problems. I have approx. 1500KM'S while running the CAT filter, about 500KM's was a trip into the Rocky Mountains for a sking trip. The rest has been city driving.
No restrictions, no hesitation, no problems at all.
There are pictures of the install including the CAT part number lists from CAT in my photo album if anyone is interested.
smile.gif
[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]
[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
pinehill-
FWIW, my Stanadyne began to clog enough that my GTech 0-60 time went from 8.7-8.8's to 9.4 seconds. This happened so slowly that I almost didn't notice.
I did notice a slight hesitation a time or two but didn't associate this with the filter until I tried the GTech.
Changing the filter put me right back at 8.8 first try.
I never got a code set. There must be a lot of restriction required to set a code.
I have posted the before and after fuel tests in the album called 3rd Cat Filter.
If you click on the thumbnail to enlarge and then got to the top right corner you make the copy full page so its easy to read.
smile.gif
Trace,
I'd be curious to know how much restriction is there with a NEW filter...
biglouieky
03-06-2003, 08:31
Caterpillar recently sent information to its dealers explaining that they are experiencing situations in which fuel filters with too much restriction are being used in a primary fuel filter function. Their information informs dealers and customers not to use the Caterpillar 1P2299 fuel filter and 1R0740 fuel filter as primary fuel filters on Caterpillar engines. These filters are too restrictive for use in primary fuel filter applications and cause stress and damage to fuel transfer pumps.
ccds,
Noticed no clamps on the rubber/steel conection. I couldn't find any mention of this so I'm asking.
Is it exactly as your photo... slide on interference fit?
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/24b322b/bc/duramax/CAT+Install/install+%23+9.jpg?BCvO2Z.Aw6uLTcwH
I just recieved Racor 690 2m setup that I'm gonna install like yours. It's the biggest filter Racor has in 2m and comes with a water seperater.
My only questions are the hose hookups at the cut steel ends.
[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
Hoot,
ANYWHERE that you use push on hose without the specially oversized push on fittings should be double clamped...
In other words, if you can install the hose w/o a heat gun, it needs a clamp!
HOOT:
here is a link to the connectors I used at the filter. You do not need any clamps on those ones.
http://www.pcfp.com/html/push-lok.html
I have had no problems with these connectors as they are the ones JK is talking about above.
As for the fuel line connection to the steel line I used 2 clamps at each connection to the steel fuel line. (as JK has advised above)The fuel line I used fit very snug on the OEM steel fuel line and I am very satisfied with the connection but I did use 2 clamps at each end. Don't know if it shows them that well or not. Try and take the thumbnail pic & enlarge it and then go to top right corner and click full size. That will give you the best veiw of the install.
I do have custom hoses ordered and they will attach to the steel line with a ferral connector that will let me attach to the steel fuel line with screw on connectors.
I just haven't had time and to go get the hoses and install them.
I will post new pic's of that part of the install once its complete.
hope this helps
ps: I just went to CAT Install picture #13 & 14 and if you enlarge it to full size you can see the clamps. smile.gif
smile.gif
[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]
[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
Thanks for the replies guys.
There is no pressure in this line and the suction doesn't amount to a whole lot. An example of clamping requirements is at the OEM filter where they only use a spring clamp.
(You guys got me looking)
ccds,
You must have taken your pics before you installed the clamps because there are none.
I like your hose setup as it is (with clamps) because it seems to offer the least chance of restriction. Fittings tend to add restriction. The hose-on-tubing is about as freeflowing (an cost effective) as you can get.
I see the clamps in the #14 pic now.
[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
HOOT:
look at pic #13 & 14 expanded to full size and you can see the clamps, I just looked again...lol
smile.gif
I see them in 14. The earlier photos without the clamps had me wondering.
DURA-MAX3
03-06-2003, 10:41
CCDS::: Are those samples taken after the cat filter only or after both filters, just wondering.Thanks in advance. BTW mine is working great, no problems so far. I don't think we will have plugging problems because these filters are made for truck applications. Just my 2 cents, time will tell...Robert...
My understanding is the fuel samples were taking before the CAT filter and right after the CAT filter....
smile.gif
george morrison
03-06-2003, 14:12
As per John Kennedy's comments "in other words, if you can install the hose w/o a heat gun, it needs a clamp!" are excellent advice. Many of the multi-fuel filter installations have resulted in both higher dirt and air content than with the OEM single fuel filter installations. The increase has been the direct result of either fitting or filter housing leaks. Since we are increasing restrction *any* possible weak leak will be exacerbated with the additional filter. The importance of fitting integrity cannot be over-emphasized.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: george morrison ]</p>
kennedy- I am also curious about the restriction. The only way I could quantify this would be to make up a by-pass hose and go back out with the GTech.
Regarding the push on fittings- the dealer put a block of steel in front of me that I stood on, then threaded the fitting in a tapped hole and said pull. It would easily support my weight if it were screwed into the ceiling. Mine were put on with a machine hydraulically.
I don't think a heat gun would have any effect on the hose they used unless you just roasted it until it melted.
[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
TLA has posted in another thread that GM will not honor his engine warranty because he installed after market gauges, etc. What would you think GM's position would be concerning our after market add on fuel filters? Would the cost of hiring a lawyer to fight GM to make them follow the Moss... Act exceed the cost of new injectors?
Didn't California just win a ruling against GM about faulty injectors which was so big it caused GM stock to fall $3.00 a share? If there is something inherently wrong with the GM fuel systems shouldn't GM do something about it for the rest of us?
It looks to me like GM has us between a rock and a hard place. They have produced a poor fuel system and then void our warranties if we try to fix the problem with after market add ons.
-----------------------quote----------------------
I do have custom hoses ordered and they will attach to the steel line with a ferral connector that will let me attach to the steel fuel line with screw on connectors.
---------------------------------------------------
Where can we get these furrel connectors?
Part Numbers/size?
I was confused with the article about what the furrel fitting part numbers were.
FWIW,
The factory can use spring clamps because they have a thin wall cheap hose that will flex with the clamp. This push on type hose is much stiffer.
The connections at the engine really won't allow 2 clamps, so use a big one and crank it tight!
There is 3-5"hg in the system at any given time, and any little leak will let in air and dirt...
hoot:
I don't have the hoses yet. I haven't had time to pick them up. What I did was take the truck down to the hydraulic hose company and they crawled under the truck to take a look at what I had. I have a friend that works there. He took measurements of the existing hoses. He will have the custom lines made to order and then I will install them. Until I get them I cannot give you much more information.
I will post the info once I have it available.
There is absolutly nothing wrong with the hose and connections I am using now.
smile.gif
GM Smitty
03-08-2003, 18:41
Hoot - I cut out the section of fuel line where I was going to tap in for the Racor (Pre OEM). I took that piece of tubing (1/2") down to the Parker store (hose and fitting store) along with the Racor unit. The fine fellow there made the hoses for me while I waited. I had to give him the lengths. Greg L. supplied me with hoses and fittings with the Racor unit I bought from him, I just wanted something a little more beefcake and factory looking. I don't have pictures of the new lines yet, but hope to get them up tomorrow. I also added a ball valve so I can stop the siphon effect from the tank when changing the filter. Any questions email me.
kusbrostenter@aol.com
Josh
Thanks Guys.
I have a Goodall Rubber place local that has a walkin counter customers. Maybe I'll check with them. They made some lines up for my 97 6.5TD oil cooler using the existing fittings.
http://www.goodallonline.com/
Here's the filter I'm using...
http://www.parker.com/racor/cat/english/images/dsl_sp/600_features_top.jpg
http://www.parker.com/racor/cat/english/dsl_spn/600series.pdf
[ 03-08-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
Hoot,
If you are still interested in the furule type, parker CPI fittings will go from ferrule type tube fitting to NPT. Just go to the parker sight under instrumentation fittings (CPI fittings) Good for vac or pressure. :D
Well here is a short update on this installation.
I installed the CAT filter 21 Feb. 03. I now have 156 hrs. & 5559K since installing this set up.
CAT recommends that the CAT filter be changed every 250hrs of operation. I intend to change both the OEM and the CAT filter every 250 hrs.
The CAT filter is pre OEM and todate I have had absolutly no problems with this set up.
smile.gif
ccds,
That great news.... glad to hear that your
2 micron pre filter can go 5000+ miles.
The fact that your catching all the rocks,
boulders and sand with your primary filter
would lead me to believe that your OEM
Racor should last you at least 30,000 miles
between changes.
Thanks for reporting your results. I hope
others with pre and post fuel filtration will
also continue to post.
GM Smitty
04-24-2003, 04:43
Well, I have about 3000 miles on my Racor 660R pre-oem set up (2 micron), and I think I'm feeling some performance issues. I also think that my mpg has been getting worse over the past 2 tanks of fuel. I have a G-tech and want to make a few runs before I switch to a new filter to see if there is any performance gain. I could change to the bigger element for the 600 series mount (R90), but it would hang below the frame rail. I would also love to have one of them fancy devices that JK has invented to measure restriction before changing. I think I might stick it out until 4000 miles and see if it gets worse. On that note...when I replace the filter, what is the method you guys are using to cut open a fuel filter to see how dirty the element is? Is this a hacksaw job..or is there something else I should know? Thanks.
Josh
GM Smitty:
I use a dremel tool with a small cutting blade on the filters I have opened. That is what I will be using on the CAT filter once I change it.
hope this helps
smile.gif
Lone Eagle
04-24-2003, 19:54
ccds, Is your Cat filter from a stationary diesel application? The reason I ask is because of the 250 hour rating. That doesn't have anything to do with gallons of fuel filtered on a truck. It would for a generator, pump, air compressor etc. You might be changing it out prematurely. Later! Lone Eagle
GM Smitty,
I tried a number of different ways to cut open filters with varying results. I have since decided that I want to keep all ten fingers were they belong...
I bought an Airwolf filter cutter last year, and IMHO I have not seen a better tool for the money. A very well crafted tool and it should be a once in a lifetime purchase (until it walks off :eek: ).
www.airwolf.com
There are two different size Airwolf filter cutters available - and the larger cutter will NOT work for smaller diameter filters.
I've seen other filter cutters on different websites. Try searching the internet for aviation tools and supplies for additional suggestions.
Lone Eagle:
Just going by what the CAT dealer here advised.
If you go to CAT's site it says the same thing.
The filter I am using is CAT #1R-0750 it lists the applications in the chart including trucks.
Take a look at this link it gives the info on the filter. It also shows a good example comparison of micron sizes:
http://www.caterpillar.com/products/shared/parts_n_service/04_filters/fluid_filters/_filters/high_eff_fuel_filters.html
smile.gif
[ 04-24-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
LanduytG
04-25-2003, 05:08
We now have our complete filter kit available.
http://www.thedieselpage.com/vendors/amsoil.htm
Greg
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