Dex-Cool Class Action Lawsuit

[george morrison]

Noted that a Kansas City, Missouri Law firm has filed a class action lawsuit against GM/Dexcool relating to the numerous catastrophic engine failures which have occurred in engines using Dexcool engine coolant. We have several repair shops in the Columbus area that do nothing but heads for Blazers, Jimmy's and Bravada's.. One cranks out 4 to 6 a day!
It is strange how the Dexcool seems to pose no problems in some engine installations yet causes significant problems in others.
I have a 3 pound bag of red solids resembling iron ore sitting on my desk that was removed from a Detroit Diesel Series 60 engine..
The regular use of oil analysis will enable us to catch coolant issues should they surface...
George

[LanduytG]

George
The 6.5 don't seem to be bothered by it, but the 8.1 and 4.3 are having big problems. These engines trap air and the air seems to react with the Dexcool. Dexcool is what is call organic acid technology. I have a 2000 4.3 that will be changed out to Evans as soon as I can get the time to do so.

Greg

[DieselDavy]

George,
Is the GM 5.3 suseptable to the pink stuff? I have the green goo in all but a new 5.3. Any data on that block?
Our local Car Talk show hosts says pink stuff needs changed every two years reguardless of what engine it is. He is a service manager at a GM dealership. He says the pink stuff doesn't like to be subjected to oxygen.
Thanks,
Dave

[Manfred]

When I bought my truck, I was told that the pink looking coolant does not need to be changed out for 100K miles. Important though, not to mix it with normal automotive coolant, since it would tun into a goo.

For the Volvo boat diesel recommendations are only to use Phosphor free coolant, which most automotive stores here don't carry.

[crafty]

My truck still has the original coolant in it and will be 3 years old in december. The rad shop I deal with tells me that I should flush the system this fall as they have seen cases where that coolant has almost become a solid.
For the cost of a rad flush I will be changing the coolant every two years from here on. I only have 49,000 Kms on the truck but I don't always go by mileage.
Keep a close eye on those rads!!! :D :D :D

[roegs]

Its interesting that Caterpillar also promotes extended life coolant for their engines. You can do a search on ELC at their web site. Penray also notes some Caterpillar comments at:

http://www.penray.com/bulletins/dexcool.htm

I've had good luck with Dexcool in my engines, but then I treat it the same as the green stuff...changing at the same intervals. While I may not get the benefit of extended life, both GM and Caterpillar claim I should get better water pump life. Guess we'll see.

[george morrison]

Regarding CAT's not only recommendation of Long Life (acid technology coolant), it initial fills all of its equipment with it and just re-signed with Texaco for another 3 years..
That said, the largest CAT distributor in the U.S. DRAINS the CAT long life fluid when it receives equipment, then re-fills it with pre-charged regular old ethylene glycol. It will only sell a piece of equipment with the CAT fluid if the end wants the CAT and signs a hold-harmless; they have had more than a few costly problems for end users.
I recently looked at an over the road truck engine which approximately 3 pounds of red solids resembling iron ore were removed from the system.
One must look further than just a manufacturer's recommendation for a product. It may just be that the use of a product such as long life will get them through warranty; what happens down the road, they could care less. i.e. the 1996 GM Dexcool initial fills are now having significant problems..
As for the 6.5 not having problems, not so..
My own 6.5TD had the 'orange death' problem.. One of the internal engine seals deteriorated, enabling a small leak into the engine; had I not been doing regular oil analysis, it would have gone un-noticed and catastrophic failure soon to follow.
Another problem with the Acid technology (vs. normal ethylene glycol: ACID in an engine just doesn't *sound righ*, but it that is what it is referred to!)is that its rate of usage is much higher than that of regular ethelyne glycol; make-up rate is much higher, thus enabling the possibility of low coolant, coolant usage, internal leaks to go un-noticed..
Moreover, I have been in engine tear-downs with the equivalent of 2,000,000 miles on them with cooant systems totally clean; the original ethylene glycol was *never* changed. However, the coolant systems were well maintained with appropriate DCA/SCA levels, coolant filters changed ragularly, de-ionized water used, etc.
From my vantage point, acid base technology anti freeze is answering questions I certainly wasn't asking!
George

[afp]

I always wondered what the "sludge" looking stuff was in the overflow tank of my wife's Jimmy. I am also glad I changed the coolant when the vehicle had under 50,000 miles on it. However, I refilled it with Dex Cool.

Is there any special flushing method we should use if we want to cghange over form Dex Cool to Std coolant?

Blaine

[zip]

Blaine,
This will date me, but an old timer once told me to run Sal Soda and water through the radiator to clean it out "clean as a whistle". :cool:

Do they still make that stuff? :eek:
Well, anyway- he said he ran it for about 100 miles and then cleaned it out with water. ( I have no idea what mixture he used) Of course he never paid 40K for his truck either!
zip

[More Power]

Several years ago, Havoline began suggesting its DexCool was good for at least 250,000 miles. GM, being a little more conservative is recommending 150,000 mile intervals.

From what I've read and seen first hand, it is important not to have an air/coolant interface in the cooling system. If all internal surfaces are wetted, there is no problem. However, if an engine or cooling system problem develops that allows air to enter the cooling system, a corrosion problem "could" develop.

About a year ago, we changed the thermostats in our 6.5TD Project engine. That engine's cooling system was filled with DexCool when it was installed in 1999. With about 75,000 miles on it, the inside of the radiator and thermostat housing were perfectly clean, with no signs of corrosion. However, where a small amount of Dex had seeped past the top radiator hose and thermostat housing neck (never leaked though), there was some corrosion on the outside of the outlet neck of the thermostat housing. This was the only area where an air/coolant interface existed.

MP

[FirstDiesel]

That's a good question. Since the 2 antifreezes are not compatible how do you switch?? I have a 4.3 in my S10 and after all this talk I think I'll be looking to flush and change it soon. It's 2 years old and has 60k on it.

[george morrison]

Re:flush. As complete a flush as possible! 99.9% of the Dexcool removal would be excellent, however, realistically, a bit on the impossible side. Moreover, as clean a purge as one can get. We want the resultant anti-freeze to be as 'green' as one can get; i.e. as close to pure 50/50 ethelyne glycol/deionized water as we can get!
There really is not supposed to be any interaction problem beteen the two anti-freezes. 90% of the Dexcool/Texaco IS ethelyne glycol, same as the good ol green anti-freeze we have been using for years (with no problems, I might add)..
The big area is getting rid of the acid portion of the Dexcool/Long Life..
Again, according to GM/Texaco/Chevon/CAT, the two anti-freezes ARE copatible, so there really should not be any interaction problems. That said, we need to get as much of the Dexcool/Texaco Long Life/Acid technogy out as we can..
George

[dmaxalliTech]

There is a tsb released by gm, quite lenghtly, on removing sludge from S-T trucks due to dexcool. Air and dexcrud dont mix and form sludge. get it out of anything you drive is my opinion.

[a bear]

George,
What is the reason deionized water is prefered over distilled water. Is there any additional benefit that we should be aware of.

[sdaver]

what about evans waterless?.........what does it cost?.....how do you flush?.........no water no high pressure........????......whos gonna be first? :D dave

[george morrison]

Regarding water.. Either de-ionized or distilled are acceptable. I neglected to mention distilled as it is costly, not readily available in large quantity. I apologize; I am used to working with cooling systems in the 50 to 200 gallon variety and distilled water just, well...
The point is to utilize waster with minimal contaminants/hardness..
George

[mackin]

How about Poland Spring ?? I have some 5 gallon jugs avail .. tongue.gif tongue.gif


Mac

[ 05-26-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[LarryM]

OK, help me out here. How does one actually flush and refill one of these new cooling systems and make sure there is no air trapped? With no radiator cap to look down, I'm clueless as to how to determine if there is air trapped and, for that matter, how to refill the system with new fluids.

[More Power]

GM made the switch to the new orange colored organic acid based coolant (Texaco/Havoline Dex-Cool) in 1996 due to it's longer service cycle, longer water pump seal life, and a higher coefficient of heat transfer. This new coolant came with a 100,000 mile service cycle when originally introduced. Shortly thereafter, the industry upped the cycle to 150,000 miles since the coolant degradation and loss of additives didn't seem to be a problem. Texaco/Havoline begun recommending the average cycle life of this new orange coolant be increased to 250,000 miles and beyond in certain situations. For all practical purposes, properly installing an organic acid based coolant is a "lifetime" service procedure, and won't require a routine flush for as long as you own your GM diesel. Longer seal life could also mean your water pump could last for as long as you own your GM diesel.

GM does not recommend installing an organic acid based coolant in systems with a copper/brass radiator because of a possible problem with lead corrosion. However, Prestone says their tests have shown no problem with lead corrosion and recommends the use of their organic acid based coolant in either copper/brass or aluminum systems.
Switching to an organic acid based coolant (orange dye) requires a very thorough system flush to get rid of all the original silicated ethylene glycol coolant (yellow/green dye). These two coolants are somewhat compatible, in that you won't damage your engine or cooling system with a mix, but a mix will shorten the service cycle to that of silicated ethylene glycol.

As mentioned in an earlier posted message, an air/coolant interface could begin a corrosion problem in certain situations. Not coincidentally, GM began incorporating an air-bleed screw in the 6.5L thermostat housing, beginning in the 1996 model year, and which continues with the Duramax 6600. This provides a way to vent air from the cooling system. And, the coolant surge tank system is also designed to remove air from the system. So, unless there is some sort of failure, there should never be an air/coolant interface in your 6.5 or Duramax cooling system.

Texaco/Havoline Dex-Cool has been very successful in the various GM products. Just as some here have become overly concerned about fuel filtration, air in fuel, and other issues, this coolant issue is not something most of us will ever need to be concerned about.

MP

[george morrison]

As I shared previously my 6.5TD had a gasket failure resulting in Dexcool entering the engine oil system. Had I not been doing regular oil analysis, the results could have been catastrophic.
Cummins engine will not warranty an engine that is using Texaco Long life/Dexcool coolant in its engines as a result of many engine failures caused by the acid technology reacting with the silicon seals resulting in deterioration/failure.
With a nation-wide class action lawsuit taking place against Dexcool/GM/Texaco Long life, I find it a bit difficult to treat this lightly and say with confidence that Dexcool is without problems or even better than conventional technology ethylene glycol.
And, by the way, Dexcool anti freeze major component is ethylene glycol; it is only the acid additive that is different; plus, of course, the price!!
George

[ 05-27-2003: Message edited by: george morrison ]</p>

[TexasMax]

MP, Thanks. The "sky is falling" attitude seems to have become prevailant on this site in the last few weeks.

George, have you ever thought that you may of just had a gasket failure and that it was not the coolant? Were all of the other gaskets failing or corroded as well? If not it would be a huge jump to conclude that the coolant caused it to fail.

[george morrison]

Regarding "sky is falling".
In the past 3 years I have examined more than one catastrophic engine failure with the root cause of failure being Texaco Long Life/Dexcool in the engine oil or large quantity of red solids in the coolant systems. The reason for my being at the teardown was, as in many cases, the reason for the failure 'had to be oil/lubricant related' which turned out not to be the oil, again, as in most cases...
My specific reference to my 6.5 was one of many; I am only relating it as I have both the 6.5 and my son's Chevy Blazer with Dexcool stories; the Blazer WAS clearly a Dexcool issue as evidenced by the class action lawsuit with Blazer/Jimmy/Bravada's at the forefront.
Again, I am only sharing this information so that this group is at the forefront of 'what is happening'..
Moreover, I certainly would not recommend changing an engine TO Dexcool from regular ethylene glycol at this point. And keep a watchful eye on the coolant system. And the old adage, 'where there is smoke'...
George

[More Power]

Good data, long-term product trials, large fleet maintenance records, industry studies, and lots of information from consumers can be used to shape policy.

Anecdotal info from a couple of instances might be good to know, but may not establish a trend.

According to the NARSA (National Automotive Radiator Service Association) Sep/Oct 1998 service report I have, there were several formulations of the "orange" coolant. That report said Japan, Europe and Chysler Corp all have their own formulations and/or hybrids.

This particular issue discussed by NARSA outlines potential corrosion problems due to mixing the old and the new coolants when installing new aluminum parts. In short, the silicates in the green coolant work faster than the organic acids to protect aluminum, and unprotected boundaries could be formed, with corrosion as a result. When used correctly, there were no problems. Other issues are also discussed. A recommended read for anyone interested in this subject.

MP

[rjschoolcraft]

FWIW, my 95 Suburban 6.5 TD came with the Dex-Cool coolant when new. I recently installed the dual t-stats and HO water pump. The radiator is the cleanest I've ever seen. I put Dex-Cool back in.

[sonofagun]

George, Jim,

Any more news on this very interesting topic? Jim,
how would we go about preventing an air interaction with Dexcool short of watching the radiator hoses and how would we know if we had such an interchange before it ate something?

Jim,
This is the first I've heard about a air bleed screw on the radiator, Where is it and how do you go through a proper bleed procedure?


Thanks,
Bob

[ 07-28-2003, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: son of a gun ]

[HD-Nate]

Originally posted by george morrison:
Regarding "sky is falling"........
.......Moreover, I certainly would not recommend changing an engine TO Dexcool from regular ethylene glycol at this point. And keep a watchful eye on the coolant system. And the old adage, 'where there is smoke'...
George Thanks for the information.

My experiences with Dex-Cool:

[More Power]

I'm preparing a brand new article concerning the relative merits of Dex-Cool, and what GM and the radiator service industry have seen as a result of Dex-Cool having been in use for nearly 8 model years.

This new article (about 90% written) will discuss Dex-Cool problems occurring in other GM applications, will discuss what we can do to prevent a future problem in our engines, and this article will include considered opinions of various experts in cooling system technology relating to the GM 6.5 & Duramax diesel engines.

Both sides of this issue are discussed in a fair and balanced manner. Facts are presented so each one of us can make the most informed decisions regarding the use of Dex-Cool.

MP

[ 07-28-2003, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: More Power ]

[sonofagun]

Jim,

I look forward to the article. Any comments on the air bleed valve question in my post above?

Thanks,
Bob

[Maverick]

SOAG,
Here's your answer.

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL43/437876/941414/30470491.jpg

[sonofagun]

Ah So!! Thanks Mav.

I still wonder how we would know if we had air in the system and how we should proceed if we did.

Bob

[Idle_Chatter]

Son of a Gun, if your system has been properly bled at that high-point bolt and your expansion tank level stays constant you have no air worries. I add to the previous comments on good experiences with dex-cool: 99 6.5TD Tahoe - 103,000 miles with no problems, 01 2500HD D/A - 63,000 miles with no problems.

[sonofagun]

Thanks Tom.

[mguebert]

George you posted

Cummins engine will not warranty an engine that is using Texaco Long life/Dexcool coolant in its engines as a result of many engine failures caused by the acid technology reacting with the silicon seals resulting in deterioration/failure. I just purchased an 03 ram with the Cummins 5.9 and it contains the Pink Stuff. Has Cummins changed there policies, or is Dodge going against the recommendations of Cummins.