View Full Version : Dodge upped the ante again, Duramax??
From TurboDieselRegister.com:
In our continuing effort to drive excellence to your showroom floor, Dodge is pleased to announce the availability of a new 5.9L High Output Cummins 325/600 Turbo Diesel with enhanced performance and 50 state certification on all Dodge Ram Heavy Duty pickups.
With Best-In-Class Torque, Towing, GCWR and GVWR, the 2004.5 Dodge Ram Heavy Duty Cummins 325/600 will be the strongest heavy-duty pickup truck on the market.
Now available in all 50 states, the Dodge Ram Heavy Duty with the new Cummins 325/600 Turbo Diesel delivers confidence, dominating the full-size diesel pickup market with 600 lb.-ft of torque and the ability to tow 16,400 lbs.
The strongest and most powerful heavy-duty pickup available with 325 horsepower and 325/600 lb.-ft of torque, the new Dodge Ram Heavy Duty Cummins 325/600 overpowers the competition. Just take a look at these facts?
- Delivers a 40 lb.-ft torque advantage over Ford Powerstroke and 80 lb.-ft of torque advantage over Chevy Duramax
- Almost 3,000 lb. towing advantage over Ford F350 Powerstroke and 500 lb. advantage versus the Chevy 3500 Duramax
- Delivers peak horsepower and torque earlier than either Chevy Duramax and Ford Powerstroke
- Delivers 25 more horsepower than Chevy Duramax
- Quietest Cummins diesel ever produced
- Cold Start Capability, allows the turbo diesel to start in -20F without an engine block heater
THE CUMMINS IS A GOOD ENGINE BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WHEN YOU TURN THE KEY OFF YOU ARE STILL SITTING IN A DODGE!
Lets see VS the LLY...
15 more HP
&
10 lbs more torque than the LLY :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I know that one would really feel the difference :eek:
Its a pizzing match that the big 3 have been in since dirt.
10-20 more hp or lbs torque who gives a rats azz.
When they jump up to 50 HP and 100 lbs more, let me know.
Cummings is a great engine, but like stated above, its still wrapped in a Dodge :(
I agree, I wouldn't drive a Dodge if you gave it to me, I just hate to see GM in 3rd place in advertised HP and Torque. Expecially when the engine is capable of so much more.
i saw an 04 f350 dyno 212 hp and 338 torque over the weekend,by no means is chevy in third place..... :eek:
Originally posted by king D:
i saw an 04 f350 dyno 212 hp and 338 torque over the weekend,by no means is chevy in third place..... :eek: Please notice I said in "Advertised power ratings". :D
Very Old Dog
12-15-2003, 13:15
I have owned 3 Dodge Cummins Diesels over the last 10 years and I have never had a problem with the diesel engines with 100's of thousands of miles of use and I never had to bring in my 3 Dodges for any warranttee or repairs while I owned the vehicles. I have owned the Duramax for 9 months and 11,000 miles and with all I read here on this forum, it seems like it is only a matter of time before the injector problem bites. I never had to worry about any diesel problems with the Cummins. It just ran and ran all the time.
sonofagun
12-15-2003, 14:14
My concern with Do### has never been the Cummins but the auto trans. They haven't fixed that yet, in my opinion.
Bob
RichBailey
12-15-2003, 16:13
All of you that are bashing the Dodge should drive one of them. Although I really like my GMC, it hasn't been as reliable as my 99 Dodge. In 70k miles, I never took it in for any warranty work. Although all of the items have been fixed, my GMC has been in the shop 4x in 36k miles.
Secondly, the new Dodge interior is head and shoulders better looking then the GMC. When I talked to the GM people at SEMA, they said that they had heard all of the complaints about the cheap interior and were going to take care of it in 2005!!
Finally, the Dodge has rack and pinion steering and steers beautifully. It does have a rougher ride however, and doesn't have a crew cab or a decent automatic.
Johnny Diesel
12-15-2003, 16:41
Chrysler products have gotten much better since the 70s but are still just weird. GM always seems to feel and fit better. Ford has become much better too. The dodge may be a good product now but its so hard to ditch that lifetime third place ID badge they carry. Bottom line more people instantly recognize the GMC or Chevrolet logo as top or at least upper quality. I do.
Originally posted by DMG:
THE CUMMINS IS A GOOD ENGINE BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WHEN YOU TURN THE KEY OFF YOU ARE STILL SITTING IN A DODGE! LOL!
Seriously, though. The thing for me is, I have never liked the looks of the dodge ram, new or old style. I have also compared the newest model trucks, and I liked the chevy interior the best. I know a few people around here that had dodge rams and they were problematic. The looks thing alone would keep me out of a dodge/cummins truck if it had 800 hp and 1600 lb/ft torque
If one was to look at it from a pure mechanical standpoint engine for engine the cummins wins hands down, the d/max or PSD as v/8 diesels will never have horsepower to torque ratios as good as the inline six will produce.
If v/8 diesels were so good they would dominate the farm and over the road tractors but they don't they are practicaly all I-6.
If Dodge was ever smart enough to produce a Alli clone their sales would see a dramatic boost.
That said looks are another thing, I myself think that since 2001 gm trucks have uglified the styling practically as bad as the newer dodge, which is beside the point for me, I can't pay over 40K for a new truck no matter who builds it.
They get $8 a day south of the border to build these over priced monsters and the price of the truck only goes up.
Whats wrong with this picture? 40k for a 20k truck sounds like a winner to me :mad:
Sorry for the length I'm just venting cause I can't afford one. :mad: :mad:
Uhh, big boats use big diesel "V" engines.
There is nothing magic about an inline 6. It does have a heavier crank, and as such maintains inertia better. However, a V-8 has two cylinder firings per cycle more than an I-6.
BTW, who really cares what the HP ratings of stock trucks are anyway? It's what we can do to them aftewards that counts. As a comparision, here is what Edge shows for each engine, as best as I can read the charts:
'03 HO 5.9 Cummins: 350 HP @ 2700; 710 ft lbs @ 2100
'03 6.0 PSD: 375 HP @ 3000; 750 ft lbs @ 2200
6.6 DMax: 375 HP @ 2500; 810 ft lbs @ 2300
This is as hot as Edge wants to tune each truck within constraints of reliability in a daily driver environment. I see no advantage here in peak power numbers here for the I-6. Both V-8s spank it in terms of torque. The DMax makes more torque because it is a bigger engine.
The Cummins does have one advantage, but it's not that it's an inlie 6. It is that it is a very well-engineered engine that has shown itself to reliably handle power levels well above what Edge has put into it here.
Blaine
dieseldummy
12-15-2003, 21:56
Advertised ratings are what seems to matter when you are watching football on sunday and you see back to back chevy, dodge and ford commercials. A good portion of the general population doesn't have the knowledge or the money to ad computer tuning and the like. If you do look at it from the standpoint of max power with the edge unit, maximum numbers mean something, but a graph of a torque curve means so much more. How do the three compare in that aspect? Which motor has the flatest maximum curve with no major fluxuations and dips? Also, when it comes right down to it, the cummins is a tested and true competitor, even if it in a Dodge. This is just my 2 cents worth, hope I didn't offend anyone with what seems to be pro dodge comments. You still wouldn't catch me driving one though. :cool:
I would love to line up at a redlight with one....... :D
502_Jimmy
12-16-2003, 08:13
And I'd love to be at that light :D . Well, I'd be behind, and in all the smoke, but still.. :D
Sdaver- I don't know if you'd want to see this one pull up beside you.
:D
C:\My Documents\Sidewinder-1.jpg
yeow!
(I couldn't copy and paste the pic)
The torque number may be misleading when comparing the engines.
If one engine has a lower redline, and makes the same HP, it will usually post a higher peak torque number. That doesn't mean it has more power, just a lower redline.
What you WANT is a flat torque curve that stretches a long way for a truck motor.
The real proof will be who can tow uphill faster, not who has a bigger number in their brochure.
I heard of the boost in Dodge HP, and have driven the Ford 6.0, but still choose the GM truck. The Dodge and Ford are missing features I want. I can ALWAYS up the HP.
cowboywildbill
12-16-2003, 16:45
Well Guy's, the fact is that the new Dodge HO still only comes with a six speed manual. And I heard that thier test trucks have a little problem keeping a clutch & pressure plate in them while they are towing. And apparently that is with out putting too many miles on them either. They may have upped the ante, but not the drive train. Plus they still don'thave a front end design that will hold up. I know I owned one. But I'll agree that the cummins is a great powerplant.
I will be buying a LLY, but there IS something good about I-6's as my dad logged 300,000 miles on a old ford 300I-6 and no V type engine could do that..... I do rember my college teacher talking about how the V type fights itself (doesnt warm up from the top down) when it changes temp and causes stress between the intake manafold and the heads and also gets torque from 2 angles and wears the crank harder...but who knows
I love reading the Dodge bashing. The best part is that half of you guys bashing them don't even have your facts straight. The HO engine has been availible with an auto trans starting in 2003, I should know, I own two of them. The auto trans was thoroughly revamped for duty behind the HO. Dodge incorporated many formerly aftermarket features to beef the trans up. I have 35k miles on my dually now and not a single problem. It tows 10-15k lbs every day.
The biggest difference between the V8 trucks and the Cummins is the torque. The Cummins flat crushes the others. To get power out of a D-max you need to rev the heck out of it. The Cummins makes the power way down low. There is simply no comparison, and you would know that if you had driven one. Both of my CTD's grab overdrive at about 1500-1600 rpm and pull like trains. Just try and get the allison to do that. I'm on my second one, and I know they wont.
There is a definate difference in the interiors. I like my wifes LT chevy the best. They are quiet and comfortable but pathetic when it comes to real work IMO. The injector problem on the D-max is also very real. I will not keep the chev beyond its engine warranty. I traded the first one off on a Dodge at 97k miles. No way I am eating GM's design problems.
This is the way I see it, The GM trucks make the nicest cars. They are the smoothest riding and can be made very fast, though why you need a fast truck alludes me. The Dodge is by far the best worker and the quality is back if the two I have are any indication. They ride rough and pull hard like a truck should. I was a big fan of my 7.3 Ford but will not touch a 6.0L. They are not even in the game with that engine right now. With the 7.3 SD they were a very nice compromise between the rough Dodge and wimpy chevy.
I have also had more problems with the '01 and '03 D-max trucks than the other brands combined. My '03 has already had a transfer case update of some kind and is in the shop today for a leaking brake booster. This is an 11,000 mile truck that my wife drives. Now it has power steering fluid leaking down on to the carpet. Nice job GM :rolleyes:
Flame away guys! The truth about the competition has never been popular here :confused:
It seems to me you just have bad luck with your GM's as we have had bad luck with our Fords. Our '00 F550 has stranded one of us six different times. From bad valve stems and tires to camshaft sensors. Not to mention it is a gutless pig for a motor. This truck has almost costed us more in down time than it makes us hauling dumpsters. Too bad GM or Dodge don't make a "F550 like truck" in 4wd.
I wouldn't say that I had bad luck. The problems are normally pretty minor and I've never had any of the trucks strand someone. The '01 D-max almost did but made it back under its own power.
I would also say that I am not a D-max hater or something crazy like that. I am however very realistic about the trucks having owned them all for a while now. On my upcoming 1400 miles trip to Colorado, I am definately taking the Chevy, it is by far the most comfortable.
Next spring when I have to go out towing 15,000lbs worth of 4x4's, I will be running a cummins ;)
Trying to discount the power gains possible on the cummins was one post I missed commenting on. The reason the Edge numbers are low is that more power in the cummins requires larger injectors. After that the make 800 ft/lbs easily. Just tyring to spread some more truth, thats all.
While you may not think you can feel an extra 20 ft/lbs in the 600 CTD vs the new D-max, you will. Again the cummins makes power earlier, and in a much more useful and efficient way. That is another point to make, fuel economy. My heavier, taller Cummins gets a good 4mpg better than my D-max under identical operating conditions.
cowboywildbill
12-17-2003, 12:04
Well everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I drive a Drive and own a Dmax, and I have owned a big bad modified dodge. I also drive a very modified HO sometimes, and I can honestly say that a chipped D-max is at the top of the hill first with the same load. Just a fact, and I was a dyed in the wool cummins fan! That's why I own a Dmax now!. And as far as the new HO, my dodge dealer told me that the new truck is "Not" available at this time in an automatic, maybe he is misinformed, I don't know. But that is what they said. And as far as trans troubles, my friend tells me they still eat up the chrysler trans, only they will last a little longer than they used to. He said if you want an automatic in the Dodge, go to someone like B&D or suncoast and get it modified, otherwise it is still a matter of time. He said the best money you can spend is on the extended warranty. Merry Christmas to everyone! No matter what you Drive!
Yes, the Cummins is a very refined well thought out engine. But don't assume that there will be a huge difference in "grunt".
At 1600 RPM the new GM LLY will have 590ftlbs of TQ (555ftlbs for the existing 305HO Dodge). If you think you will feel the 20ftlbs at 1600rpm from the new Dodge, (3% increase) you might be right, but you'll probably feel the 15HP gain in high RPM more (5% gain). But since the GM revs slightly higher, changes in actual RWTQ will be dictated more by transmission ratios, rear end gears, and tire sizes than by engine output which are actually very similiar.
There are 3 basic ways to increase engine output:
Increase Displacement
Increase combustion pressure
Increase RPM
At the same HP levels and lower RPM, the 5.9L Dodge will have to just run more combustion pressure (boost+fuel) to match the larger, higher reving engine. This is why "chipping" alone gives the GM the advantage.
So now explain to me what good 590 lb/ft of torque at 1600 rpm in the LLY is going to do for you, if the allison refuses to pull at that rpm? Did they recalibrate the trans? Has anybody driven one yet?
The Dodge auto will do things the others wont at this point. It will allow the engine to work at its torque peak. Is the Allison going to be set up that way? Pretty hard to bash the Dodge trans when it is the only brand that allows the engine to work in its most powerful range. I would also seriously question somebody claiming the new Dodge auto is bad. They are brand new still. I have had mine for six months and 35k hard miles, no problems yet. The second one is five months old with 20k miles, no issues there either. I wouldn't condemn it just yet.
And, yes, a D-max will beat the Dodge up the hill, screaming its guts out at 3500 rpm, go ahead, run your truck like that. I like being able to make it in a higher gear at a lower rpm with better fuel economy. It's not always a race guys.
Well, for today, the only Dodge I can buy is like 235HP (California), and my 5.8L Gasser E-350 will outaccelerate it.
If Dodge offered a real Crew Cab, I might have possibly waited for the Dodge. But as of today, the GM "package" will suit my needs better.
And you certainly can't argue that Dodge's 5-sp Automatic is superior to GM's or Ford's, because... err.. well, it's missing. ;)
And if I understand correctly, the LLY version Allison has some improvements over the existing model.
Big Tow, I have to laugh at a statement like "screaming its guts out at 3500 rpm."
That's a riot!
- Mark
Guys,
RE my earlier post. The Dmax, when juiced, makes its HP at [i]lower{/i] rpm than does the chipped Cummins. The HP peak for Hot Juice is 2500 rpm for the DMax. The Cummins makes it peak HP at 2700. The Dmax makes 25 more HP at 200 rpm less. This takes more torque. And yes, the torque curve for all of the chipped motors is very good. More importantly, the HP power is very good as well. It's displacement that determines max power output--not I-6 vs V-8.
Also, it's HP, not torque, that determines performance. All torque does is determine at what RPM HP is made. Remember, you can get 150 ft lbs of torque at zero rpm with a 1/2" torque wrench....................However, when you start spinning that torque you are developing HP.
As such, when a chipped Dmax beats a chipped Cummins to the top of the hill--assuming both trucks at the same weight, it's becasue the Dmax put more power to the ground.
Blaine
bluenote
12-17-2003, 16:14
And, yes, a D-max will beat the Dodge up the hill, screaming its guts out at 3500 rpm, go ahead, run your truck like that.I challenge you to show us how you can get a stock Duramax to run at 3500 RPMs, other than for brief moments during grade-braking. I've run mine up to the speed limiter, as well as power-braked and run it as hard as possible to get to speed, and it sure as heck wasn't anywhere near 3500 RPMs at any time.
As far as your claim that the 48re tranny in the Dodge allows a truck to do things that the Allison 1000 doesn't, I can't argue with you, since I haven't driven one. However, you're forgetting what the Allison allows GM owners to do...drive and tow lots of miles without puking it's guts out, or requiring a major rebuild. Also, last time I checked, there was no grade-braking feature to the 48re, nor was there a long-standing reputation for quality that's outstanding.
If the CTD were available with a tranny that rivals the Allison and also in a truck with an actual (not pretend) crew cab, then I'd be interested. Maybe someday Dodge will decide they are tired of being 3rd place in truck sales, but until then..........
My opinion: Stock truck versus stock truck, the Dodge/Cummins will out pull the Chevy/Duramax with a heavy load. There have been enough former Duramax owners that have purchased Dodge/Cummins vehicles recently and most have come back to these forums with (what I believe) are honest opinions. Reference the links below. They are to the Edge website where dyno graphs are available. The graphs show stock hp/tq numbers for a 2001 DMAX/Allision and a 2003 Cummins HO/Auto. Look at the stock curves and you will see the Dodge is ahead in most cases, especially at the lower RPM range.
http://www.edgeproductsinc.com/ezho03-chart.html
http://www.edgeproductsinc.com/juice-chart.html
Having stated the above, there are probably a dozen (or more) other factors that go into choosing a truck which is best for you. Each person will weight those factors differently. BIG TOW obviously places high emphasis on towing 15K pound loads. My personal choice is a compromise between towing and comfort/conveniences (the 2002 Dodge/Cummins was terrible with the engine noise plus the crappy auto in 2002). That, plus a number of other factors, is why I chose the Chevy. To each his own for their application. No one can ever win these truck brand discussions, there are simply too many factors that go into making a decision on which truck to buy.
I'll give Dodge this much credit; with all the press releases recently about the updates to motors for the 2004 emission standards, Dodge also announced a standard, no-cost 7 year / 100,000 mile powertrain warranty (engine and transmission). I would like to see GM step-up to this!!
billnourse
12-17-2003, 17:46
Big Tow,
Where did you come up with 3,500 RPM? The DMax defuels at 3400.
Mine in 4th gear runs 2700rpm at 65 mph. The 1998 Dodge we had with 4:10's was 2700 at 60 MPH when pulling uphill with a heavy load in 3rd gear.
We took a 2200 mile trip with both pickups pulling 5th wheel trailers, with the DMax pulling the biggest trailer. The DMax outpulled the Dodge over the exact same conditions, and got the same mileage.
The New Dodges will no doubt pull better due to torque and HP ratings, just makes sense, but the LLY with the new numbers will be right there.
Regards,
Bill
Tough Guy
12-17-2003, 18:54
I was reading the warranty booklet on the 04 HO Dodge, and discovered to my dismay that the clutch on the NV5600 6 speed has NO warranty at all. None..Zippo...Nada. :confused:
What does that say about the drivetrain? The Cummins will make a ton of power, no doubt, so if D/C isn't going to warranty the clutch, then what chance do the autos have long term?? :confused:
Cheers
mguebert
12-17-2003, 19:42
This cracks me up. Big Tow was not claiming the Duramax is junk or anything like that. You guys are getting defensive about nothing. He is the only one I have seen in this thread that has owned both a current DMAX and current Dodge HO. His opinions should mean something from this vantage point.
Also I should point out that I also have owned both. My Duramax was an 01 that gave me injector fits at 50K and was in the shop several times for crappy interior pieces and driveline problems. ( a driveshaft yoke that needs to be lubricated every 5-10K in order to avoid a massive clunk at takeoff from a standstill) OH Boy the quality!!!
I am not a FORD, CHEVY, or DODGE fan, I have owned all three 7.3 NA, 7.3 Powerstroke, DMAX, and now the Cummins. So far the Dodge has been the best in initial quality in 11K it has not seen the shop for anything yet (knock on wood).
Stock for stock the Dodge definitely pulls better (10K load) and while does not do quite as well fuel economy wise unloaded (17mpg vs 18mpg for DMAX) it pretty well smokes the DMAX with the same load on the same road (11-12mpg vs 8mpg for the DMAX)
Comparing chipped Dmax to Chipped Cummins is hardly fair at this point, unless you are willing to put a first gen pressure only box on the DMAX. After all that is all that is currently available for the Dodge. It is fairly impressive even at that level. I will admit it is not as strong as the hot juiced dmax but upcoming boxes for the dodge will change all of that.
TST's new box should be available very soon and they are claiming 150hp 500 lb/ft gains, and Edges new box for the Dodge is supposed to be in that ballpark also.
I was reading the warranty booklet on the 04 HO Dodge, and discovered to my dismay that the clutch on the NV5600 6 speed has NO warranty at all. None..Zippo...Nada
The GM 3year / 36k mile standard warranty as well as the GM Major Guard extended warranty that I purchased from GM for my Chevy Duramax/Allison specifically excludes the "manual clutch disc linings". I believe they consider this component a standard wear item. It appears to me that both GM and Dodge have a similar view on this.
Ever get curious as to why the SRT-10 Pickup wasn't released with an Automatic Option? Or the Viper?
Take a guess. If they had to upgrade the 48RE to deal with 305HP, I wonder why Dodge didn't trust it at 400-500HP levels... A 500HP pickup with Manual trans that has a 12" shifter throw? Ford is doing OK with the Lightning and the old 4-sp auto. Dodge woulda if they coulda.
And if/when Dodge releases the 325HP version of the TD Ram (Dodge is not acknowledging it yet), do you think it will be "free" HP? A magic Genie turning the crank? Or will they just run more boost/inject more #2 into it to get the gain?
Maybe you'll trade economy and engine life for more power like all engines do.
Individual experiences with a truck don't make a statistical database. Nobody is going to want to hear that my Ford (gasoline) truck is at 125,000 on all original parts except the oil, coolant, fuel, battery, brakes, windshield, wipers, and tires. That is not normal, but neither is a modern truck "falling apart" at 30,000mi either.
To say the Dodge 48 series trans is bulletproof at 11,000mi doesn't really mean anything, as the average truck owner would certainly expect a trans to last longer than the tires.
[ 12-17-2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: McRat ]
An unofficial GM policy is to replace clutches and brakes that fail in the first year or 12,000mi. I've used this a few times. ;)
But officially, wear items are seldom covered by mfr's.
Bigwheel
12-17-2003, 22:18
Big Tow:
I agree with you totally, I proved the only fact that's worth talking about, stock for stock, my 2002 DMAX lost the test this past summer against my buddy, pulling a trailer weighing aprox.# 9,500 lbs. up Interstate 94 through st. John, and a 2003 HO cummons handed my bumper to me. It's embarassing to read on here of all the Juice and Preditor talk, which if this truck with the best transmission on the planet should rock totally stock, no adders, no nothing. I'm sorry to say, but I have a lot of money to bet on cummons guraentee vs GM's guarentee on our injector system and our fuel systems, just look at our nice secondary fuel filters we've had to make on here from injector failures, but dodge owners have never needed that, and their running over 300,000 miles without a secondary filter. My best friend beats the living crap out of his cummins, and it never has a problem, his brother has a '98 cummons with 170,000 miles, maybe needed a few parts for the tranny, but never needed to touch the motor and needed an injector job done, they beat thier trucks with-out Juice, and never loose a battle at the dealer. Like some DMAX troubles from tec's trying to figure out what's wrong, they say, this truck runs fine, nothing wrong with it, keep driving it. I have a-lot of respect, and admiration for the people on here that come up with the unbelieveable engineering ideas, ( Kennedy #1, DMAX-Allitech, More Power, and lot's of others) it's awesome!!! :cool: . but it's pretty bad to spend $37-39,000 bucks and then join here and not get the total picture at the dealer, like I have to argue with the tec's that they don't know what's going on, like I have to explain to them how to check for an injector code, and so on, talk about the most embarassing feeling there is. I think you know who I'm talking about.
Oops, don't forget how some people we're treated at the dealer when something really goes bad with these engines. Anybody want to buy a 2002 DMAX, crew,sb, with only 14,000 miles on her before we melt her into a Cummons???? :eek: :rolleyes: :eek: :confused:
Yeah, Dodge products, service, and reliability is without fault. The hand of God, (not mortal men), designs, makes and services Dodges and no other.
I've heard this about EVERY single brand and model of car and truck. Funny, every dealer I've ever visited has a service dept with many vehicles in for repairs. Even... HONDAS!!!! ;)
I also hear every model car and truck it utter junk, and not one example is built correctly. My guess is the truth lies somewhere in between.
Like I wrote earlier, the Cummins is a well designed motor, but that doesn't mean a Dodge Truck is without fault. If you really think that your luck will change radically by switching brands, go ahead and believe it. After a few years, and a few vehicles, you'll find that no make is 100% trouble-free, nor is any make destined to fall apart driving home from the dealer.
GM actually has a pretty good reputation for building a solid vehicle whether you choose to believe it or not. And like all other brands, they are in a state of constant improvement.
But there are some historical deficiencies as well in all the makes. Anyone who argues that Dodges have the best transmissions is hallucinating. Up to today, Dodge has struggled with the problem. Other makes have had better luck. That doesn't mean that the Dodge trans is destined to instant failures, just that it has been a weak link. If Dodge trans are so wonderful, wouldn't they be using their 5-sp Auto in the diesels? A little blasphemy that is supported by dyno graphs, is that Diesels have a relatively narrow powerband compared to gassers, and they benefit more from multi-speed transmissions than gassers do. Dodge knows this, and so do the other mfr's. I imagine they WILL come out with a beefy 5-sp, but haven't yet. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't buy a Dodge because the trans will fail, just that Ford and GM have done a better job on that component, and you will have smaller odds of trans trouble with a stronger trans.
WOW :eek: The common sense is coming through!
I never said that ANY of the three brands were junk. I think that any brand can supply you with a bad one too. My '01 D-max gave me fits for the first 40k miles, tons of stupid stuff wrong. Then it went nearly 60k more miles without a single problem. It was enough for me to plunk down another $44k for an '03. I have no regrets about doing so and this afternoon I am setting off for a 1400 mile trip in that truck. I also ended up with a REALLY exceptional Ford last time. Guys were burning up auto transmissions to the point that they were nationally back ordered in early '99. Mine went 200k miles towing all the time and plowing snow in the winter. That truck has been incredibly trouble free. I had a '92 Dodge, that was a great engine insearch of a home, the truck was absolute garbage, trans, brakes, body, the whole thing. Now I am into the new Dodge trucks and I think they are 95% of the way there. Sure I'd like the choice between a full four door and an ext cab, but you know what, the quad cab works quite well. They revamped the front suspension, reworked the trans and put it on the ONLY fully hydroformed frame in the business. These are not bad trucks.
I also think that the trans if treated right will be fine. Dodge took their cues from BD and Suncoast among others when they built this trans. I have 55k combined hard miles on them so far without incident. Sure it would be nice to have a fifth cog, but you know what? The trucks do not seem to mind one bit, they just keep pulling.
I think what is really great is that we have choices. I hope Ford gets the 6.0L figured out so the competition stays hot. We all benefit from that. I think the big reason I threw my hat into this fracas to begin with was to try and illustrate that GM isn't the only intelligent choice out there. Look around man, life is too short to pigeon hole yourself into something so foolish as "brand loyalty". You know what, not one of the three gives a rats a$$ about you after the sale. Be loyal to yourself instead.
I had a 02 Dmax sold it in March and got 03 Dodge, I orderd a 04 lly Dmax should be in 2/1 I have n complants with the Cummins or the truck just cant get the raceing speed out of the aftermarket as easy as the 6.0 or the Dmax. My travel trailer weights 14000# loaded and at 75 mph the Cummins pulls better and gets better milage than my Dmax (Dmax 125 hot box,Cummins 65 Edge) By driving them both the Cummins in my opinion will out pull at easy speeds and in wind it just seems to lug and make power not shift down.The power was more on the Dmax it just didnt seem to pull as good. I like to race as well so Im going back to Chevy for now or until someone makes a good box for Dodge that you dont have to chang inj.,turbo, and tranny to make more power.Just my opinion no one get to mad ;)
I love reading these brand wars. I was thinking that if I were doing some research on buying a new truck to drive 200k pulling my camper and had done some reading here as well as DP, TDR, and TDS I would probably be thinking:
If I buy the Dodge, I'll probably get to replace the tranny.....that must cost about 2000 bux.
If I buy the GM, I get to add all kinds of filters to the fuel system, add all kinds of additives to the fuel, and may still get to replace the injectors at 5000 bux. Oh and I have to add the Juice so that it won't keep shifting in and out of 5th gear.
If I buy the Ford then only God knows what may go wrong with it and he may be the only one that can fix it.
Hmmmmm....what to do? what to do? Lemme' look again and see how much weight the Toyota can pull. :D
Merry Christmas!
Lee
hey life's a beach smile.gif (in sunny SoCal, another clear 82 degree day!!)
Happy Holidays to Everyone!! smile.gif
mguebert
12-18-2003, 12:55
Who said anything about the tranny being bullet proof with only 11K. If you read my post over, you will see that I said so far in initial quality the Dodge has been the best of the 4 trucks (diesels) I have owned.
It's interesting nobody commented on comparing chipped Chevy to Chipped Dodge trucks.
Also the stock injectors and turbo seem to be good to 450hp flywheel.
Tough Guy
12-18-2003, 20:23
I am purchasing a truck this spring new or used don't know, but right now as it looks D/C HO 6 spd is the front runner because of reliability, power and price.
The problem is,they all have detractions..
D/C-auto/over all quality, comfort.
Dmax-fuel filtration/injectors.
PSD-6.0 where to start...
I need a truck to pull 10,000lbs. It must have 4 doors and a few creature comforts, but most of all be affordable to own long term, 7-10 years. Meaning I don't want to worry about injectors at <100,000 miles or the tranny going up in smoke.
With rebates etc. my uncle just bought a QC SB HO with the 6 speed and nice interior features, and after rebates paid 30,029.00 for an 04...
My point is, that this discussion proves that all three trucks are capable, Dodge HAS raised the bar but are they the best deal out there? Or would I be better off with the LLY/Allison which would make the injectors more easily replaced...
Give me the facts, just the facts.
Johnny Diesel
12-18-2003, 20:33
ALL THESE TRUCKS ARE GOOD!! GMC,DODGE AND YES EVEN THE NEW FORD WILL SOON BE FINE. NO MATTER WHAT THEY WILL ALL HAVE THEIR GOOD AND BAD. BUT IN REALITY IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOU WON'T BE HAPPY DRIVING IT. SO BUY WHAT YOU LIKE EVEN IF IT HAS A LITTLE LESS HORSEPOWER OR A TRANNY THATS NOT QUITE AS GOOD OR WHATEVER.
Chris N5CWM
12-18-2003, 21:37
Worried about the 47/48RE automatics in the Dodge? Then get a manual trans! The NV4500 and NV5600 are great trannies. The weak link is the clutch (of course). It's like a fuse in an electrical system. Better to slip the clutch than break a U-joint, ring & pinion (not likely).
There are options still. South Bend makes an awesome clutch that will handle the torque. The weak link then is the input shaft. Unless you're BOMBED to 600HP/1,400 Ft Lbs or more, then you don't really have anything to worry about except keeping fresh tires on it! smile.gif
The new LLY/3500 SRW has my interest. I'm looking forward to seeing the first one on the dealer's lot and going for a test drive. I like shifting my own gears though so it will be a while before GM offers the LLY and a manual trans it seems.
Tough Guy - I'll be in a similar situation that you are in another two years. I want to replace my current Chevy D/A before the substantially more stringent emission standards take effect in 2007. Some of the same questions you are asking have been going through my mind recently. A few of the facts as I seem them are:
1. The LLY is too new to be forming any opinion of it just yet. As with any new or redesigned product, the first year will have some bugs to work out. I have some time still to evaluate it, maybe not the case for you.
2. The Cummins was updated with the HPCR Fuel System in 2003. The basic engine is bullet-proof. However, since it is using a similar Bosch system to the DMAX, the next year or so should be interesting. Remember, it took several years for some of the LB7 injector problems to start surfacing. However, everything looks OK so far with the Cummins. The current Cummins and LLY designs are similar in that it should be easy to replace a single injector if required.
3. You indicated that you want a 6 speed transmission. So the Dodge auto tranny question mark does not enter into the equation.
4. If you go with a 4x4, make sure you can hitch-up to the 5th wheel you have listed in your signature (I assume thats your 10K load). The Dodge 4x4's bed height is higher than the Chevy. I know of at least one person with a Dodge 4x4 that had to modify his 5th wheel due to the bed rail height. The reality is either a Dodge or a Chevy will more than adequately pull your trailer.
5. It looks like you have a good opportunity to evaluate a Dodge first hand, since a family member now owns one. The $30K figure sounds like a great deal. There is definetly sticker shock when looking at what some of these trucks Suggested Retail Prices are.
6. Like I posted earlier, the one thing that grabbed my attention about the Dodge was the 7/100 powertrain warranty for their new 2004.5 offering.
7. Lastly, buy whats right for you and your family. Make a list of whats important to everyone and objectively evaluate each item. There are a lot of other factors to consider besides engines and transmissions.
I've owned one Dodge, two Fords and four Chevy trucks. So I am not brand loyal. If I had to choose today, I would buy the Dodge. If the LLY proves itself in a couple of years (when I am ready to buy), I could be swung back to the Chevy camp. No matter what you choose, you can be guaranteed in three years time, there will be something more enticing and able on the market.
Mike Fultz
12-19-2003, 12:22
This is a great thread. When I bought my '03 I did not have any brand loyalty. It has been 1977 since my last pick up truck and I have owned vehicles from all three of the US major manufactures and many of the Japanese compnaies. Here in wild Northern Virginia I knew my trick wouldn't see more than a few hours a year, if that off road. Mostly it will see bumper to bumper traffic or fast over the road travel towing my 10K pound race car trailer. I tried all three brands, and talked to folks who owned all three brands. It seemed to me that no one brand seemed to have more break-down time than any other. What steered me away from the Dodge was the seating position-- not comfortable for me, the back seat area in the crew cab was cramped, and the fit and finish of the many palstic pieces reminded me too much of my 80's cars (Chevette, Dodge 400, and Mustang-II). I really liked the Ford, but couldn't find one in the area the way I wanted it equipt. I thought the Chevy rode nicer, and shifted less than did the Ford when I went and test drove one 200 miles. Since the majority of my miles will be over the road, I wanted comfort, good power, and the Alli tranny just makes towing easier. I thought the 2500HD D/A rode smoother, shifter nicer, had a much better seating configuration, seat belts where comfortable, and the stock radio was better so I bought it, and I have never looked back.
I think if I was buying a truck to do serious off road work I would have stayed with the Ford, but the 2003 Dodge's I looked at, all had some kind of fit/finish issue on the dealers lot.....
Hey there TOUGH GUY. Just thought I,d let you know that I sure kinda like my new 1 ton dually HO 6 speed CUMMINS. The option list for the CUMMINS 6 speed smashed GM. I like the leather interior. The adjustable foot pedals for my wife. The sound system, the center pillar, the 4 door long extenda-cab, the cup holders, you name it, it has a nice cab. It has no wind noise, it drives and rides great for a dually. It is a darn nice truck we have of coarse added stuff to it already. GM needs to pick up their 6 speed line abit. Some of us gear jammers are hard heads.Ha Ha. The NV5600 is as good as it gets for a manual. Thought I would never say this but this might not be my last CUMMINS. Just can,t say the word dodge yet. Still love our 98 and T.J.,s 85. they are babes.
TRACTOR
Tough Guy
12-19-2003, 17:50
Great responses- ;)
Its not that I really want the 6spd, just that I feel its the only reliable option with the Cummins...
As far as the LLY goes...if the engineering team put as much into it as they did the first model year for the Dmax then I am not too concerned.
Its a big decision for me although I am sure I will be happy with whatever truck I purchase. It will be a big step up for me regardless of brand.
Cheers
ueckebes
12-20-2003, 21:29
kolks lets get some facts straight ,first just because a dodge cummins is a inline 6 does not mean it has more torque or can produce more than a ford or gm diesel , inline 6 engines usually have larger pistons and longer strokes therefore they have more cubes per cyl and produce more torque [per cylinder]than same size v8 engines. now second the cummins has a narrower power band than the v8 engines which means it pulls its best at a certain speed usually lower speeds because it peak torque is at lower rpm .this is why most dodge diesels come with 3.55 rears ,they try to let engine power get the load moving and use high gear ratios to keep the truck performing at highway speeds ,not a good idea when haulin truly heavy loads on a routine basis unless it stays on open highway . remember also the cummins engine has been modified 3 times drasticly to stay in comp with the v8,s and maintain emissions.any engine builder will tell you whats inside it and how well it breaths determines performance not just who makes it or if its a inline or v type or even in some cases the size .how about life span,well i have a cousin who works on school buses for the local school ,and he claims the international buses with the powerstrokes [t444e] and old 7.3 engines are lasting as long or in many cases longer than the fords with the 5.9 cummins. bottom line i own a contruction co. and have a small fleet of trucks dodges,fords and gm all are diesels and all take a lot of abuse and tow heavy loads 26 to 31000lbs daily the fords seem to perform the best and give the least problems.[but i will drive any of them]. now about the inline 6 being engine of choice in class 8 trucks reasons,cheaper to build easier to service and easier to get under hood .v type engines are still top choice for extreme heavy haul trucks and earth moving equipment because of their maximum power output . last bottom line [drive what makes you happy] and works for you not because what the manufactor claims .
jmcgmc03
12-20-2003, 21:44
Originally posted by RichBailey:
All of you that are bashing the Dodge should drive one of them. Although I really like my GMC, it hasn't been as reliable as my 99 Dodge. In 70k miles, I never took it in for any warranty work. Although all of the items have been fixed, my GMC has been in the shop 4x in 36k miles.
Secondly, the new Dodge interior is head and shoulders better looking then the GMC. When I talked to the GM people at SEMA, they said that they had heard all of the complaints about the cheap interior and were going to take care of it in 2005!!
Finally, the Dodge has rack and pinion steering and steers beautifully. It does have a rougher ride however, and doesn't have a crew cab or a decent automatic. I looked at and drove the Dodge but the interior was so cheap and generic looking that it made me wonder what corners did Dodge cut that I can't see!! I love the Cummins moter but the rest of the truck just felt cheap. 2003 GMC D/A CC and I haven't had any problems at all.
Bigwheel
12-21-2003, 06:44
Big Tow, please e-mail me, I have some info I want to share with you, thanks. Chad :cool: moldmaker@comcast.net
Originally posted by jmcgmc03:
I looked at and drove the Dodge but the interior was so cheap and generic looking that it made me wonder what corners did Dodge cut that I can't see!! I love the Cummins moter but the rest of the truck just felt cheap. 2003 GMC D/A CC and I haven't had any problems at all. I kinda felt the same way. My 96 is moving on to a good home, and I have a decision to make as to whether I test the waters with the Cummins market of go for the LLY engine...
CleviteKid
12-21-2003, 09:10
JK,
When you finally give up tryin' to actually SELL that ol' 1984 truck, and part it out for spare change, I'll make you an offer on them thar headers it has on it.
The Clevite Kid ;)
Diesel Freak
12-21-2003, 10:11
Just a question guys, what is the maximum HP and Torque than anybody has squeezed out of a Duramax? Isn't it somewhere around 550 to 600hp? I have personally seen a Dodge put 787hp to the ground, and have heard of people putting over 1,000hp to the ground (Dave Mitchell is putting out somewhere around 1200hp in his pulling truck). I know of a guy who has put 799.9hp to the ground on #2 fuel only, I'm pretty certain no D-max or Ford has done that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Duramax and the Powerstroke aren't even in the running when we start talking about extreme numbers. Or, has somebody hit 800-1000hp in a GM and I haven't heard about it?
Come on guys, they're all good trucks and it's just a matter of preference, but let's be realistic and acknowledge the fact that a Cummins has, currently does, and probably always will have the upper hand when it comes to making extreme HP.
Flame away tongue.gif
WhiteDuramax
12-21-2003, 11:37
A duramax recently dynoed at 680hp and 1200ftlbs torque. That is in the what, 4 years the Duramax has been out. A 12 valve that mitchell and all of them are running have been out since 94. They have had a little more time to play.
Dido Diesel Freak on the Cummins, and Jimmie if your out pulling 31000# with your pickups your over weight and need 2 ton trucks or bigger ;)
Michael Tomac's 11.95 @ 11.46 quarter mile run would had to have put 740 HP to the real wheels to make that happen in a 7000 lb truck. If he managed to get his truck down to 6600 lbs, then it would have taken 700 HP. Quad has made some incedible power with the Dmax. I thought he told me something like 900HP, but it was a while ago when I talked to him and I don't remember for sure. I didn't really pay much attention, because I am not willing to pay the component longevity price for anything above about 500 HP (off the crank) for my daily driver. I have had a 610 HP (dynoed) SBC, and I know what it takes to maintain such power levels.
BTW, even though an I-6 of the same displacement as a V-8 would generate more power per cyliner due to it's bigger cylinders, the V-8 has 2 more cylinders and 2 more firing strokes per cycle so, there isn't any advantage there. However, the heavy crank of the I-6 would maintain inertia better--thus the Cummins well know ablilty to "lug down" and keep running.
Blaine
[ 12-21-2003, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: afp ]
ueckebes
12-21-2003, 18:30
six1 you are right 31000 is way over loaded and should be pulled behind a two ton or larger,got 3 two ton dumps and two class 8,s only promblem is they are usually only on jobs hauling materials.besides they dont carry as many people,tools,fuel etc,and cost more to drive back and forth from the jobs.also the local law targets the bigger trucks more . these same company 1 tons also pull farm and ranch duty on my home place towing 36 ft stock trailers,and 30,36ft gooseneck equipment trailers one trailer weighs 7900lbs empty,put 16 6x6 rolls of hay,26ft legnths of timber or a 24000lb dozer on it and the weights add up quick.besides the shorter pintle hitch trailers the dump trucks pull are better suited for one piece of equip at a time and shorter hauls.someday i hope to have a class 8 truck and lowboy trailer ,but even then the pickups will still see a lot of towing ,they are just that versatile for my operations.
Originally posted by CleviteKid:
JK,
When you finally give up tryin' to actually SELL that ol' 1984 truck, and part it out for spare change, I'll make you an offer on them thar headers it has on it.
The Clevite Kid ;) Actually, the '84 is sold too. Been meaning to change signature, but it's over the limit of characters, and I need to trim it so I haven't messed with it.
One MAJOR problem here is that Elaine says if I buy a new truck, SHE gets the old (my 2002 CC)one and I don't want to give it up, especially for a Furd or Dodge...
heavydutydieselman3
12-22-2003, 17:57
Originally posted by McRat:
Ever get curious as to why the SRT-10 Pickup wasn't released with an Automatic Option? Or the Viper?
Take a guess. If they had to upgrade the 48RE to deal with 305HP, I wonder why Dodge didn't trust it at 400-500HP levels... A 500HP pickup with Manual trans that has a 12" shifter throw? Ford is doing OK with the Lightning and the old 4-sp auto. Dodge woulda if they coulda.
And if/when Dodge releases the 325HP version of the TD Ram (Dodge is not acknowledging it yet), do you think it will be "free" HP? A magic Genie turning the crank? Or will they just run more boost/inject more #2 into it to get the gain?
Maybe you'll trade economy and engine life for more power like all engines do.
Individual experiences with a truck don't make a statistical database. Nobody is going to want to hear that my Ford (gasoline) truck is at 125,000 on all original parts except the oil, coolant, fuel, battery, brakes, windshield, wipers, and tires. That is not normal, but neither is a modern truck "falling apart" at 30,000mi either.
To say the Dodge 48 series trans is bulletproof at 11,000mi doesn't really mean anything, as the average truck owner would certainly expect a trans to last longer than the tires. mcrat, best post iv'e read so far. you definatly have some common sence.
turbovair
12-23-2003, 11:48
IMHO:
-All three trucks have different strengths and weaknesses
-All three truck manufacturers have major quality issues that they can improve on
-All three trucks exhibit defects that should not exist at all when spending $40,000+
-All three manufacturers need to greatly improve customer relations during warranty period
-All three trucks are very expensive to repair once out of the warranty period
-All three trucks are TRUCKS,not formula one race cars
If I had $45,000 in my hand right now, I couldnt begin to decide who I wanted to take my SCREWING from, so I think Id just hold on to it and keep doing my homework hoping someday someone would shine above all others.IMHO
64postcarnut
12-23-2003, 21:15
Hi all,
Newbie here.I'll get into my background a little later.I have soooo many questions I need answered.I was chomping at the bit waiting to post on this topic.
I am into mid-60's Mopars/Super Stock cars,hence my forum name.I'm on their(mopar) site all the time.The 600 cummins topic came up and a tech replied that Cummins is putting a "crankshaft deflection sensor" in/on the engine.Too much boost/mods and a trouble code appears,voiding your warranty.It is not defeatable.I guess this won't matter to those who'll pay-to-play.It won't be a matter of re-prog. back to stock for service,trying to hide the mods from the dealer.Once it's lit,your done.
[ 12-23-2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: 64postcarnut ]
I take some objection to being overweight at 31K. I have crosssed the scales with a gross weight of 32,400 with my 01 3500 with a 24K, 31' goose neck. I was still under the max weight on all axles. If I remember I was within 400 pounds on the front and 700 on the rear. DOT was satisfied. Is it a great idea probably not. But as stated when you have to move equipment you move equipment. Thats why I bought it. At the time it gave me the best tow ratings.
George Gozelski
12-24-2003, 00:30
Boy, these are great posts here! I have owned two CTD's in the past and now own a 2002 Dmax CC 3500 4x4.
It seems about every other month I have to take my Dmax in for one thing or another. I never had to do that with the Dodges; they just kept going and going and going.
One thing that all of must concede to is that if you want to build extreme power, the Dodge stands alone.
I would have probably bought the new Dodge had a "TRUE" crew cab been available instead of that wanna be thing they have now. Didn't care for the Ford or the lack of performance of the Powerstroke, so I settled on the Dmax.
Which one would I buy if I was in the market tomorrow? I don't know, but probably the new Dodge because of the lack of problems with the Cummins. I know that I'd be giving up the ride and handling characteristics that G.M. is noted for, but the peace of mind from under the hood is something that can't be overlooked.
You need to be honest with yourself and talk to someone who has owned several brands or for that matter go out and test drive them all (yes, even you Ford guys).
I like my Dmax well enough and it's "JUICED" power is pretty impressive, but I am going to look at and drive all 3 before I buy a new one next fall!
Tractorhauler
12-25-2003, 04:08
Great posts!
Merry Christmas to all.
smile.gif
Ksss,
I agree with you. It all depends on what each axle is weighted in at.
I once towed some hay on the farm, ran it over the scale and much to my surprise my bales weighed a bit more than I thought.
I was grossed at a bit more than 47000 lbs. with a 32 ft gn. Trailer and truck tare is 14080.
fortunately I stayed on the farm and babied her to the barn.
Dmax ran great but I had no brakes for the few hundred yards I carried them.
ueckebes
12-28-2003, 16:44
ksss , six1 was speaking in reference to a 31000lb load on the trailer itself ,not the combinded trailer ,truck and load ,even at 24k youre pulling quite a load youreself. jim
ueckebes
12-28-2003, 17:37
just a late reply in reference to andyL and his tdr post,about the 041/2 cummins, and its new power ratings .325hp 600lb trq . the ford 6.0 [ak vrt 365] by international/navistar was actually nicknamed the super 600 because of the initial 350hp 600lb trq base rateing the base engine carried . I read this info in a motortrend trucktrend mag i believe , about a year ago i will have to dig it back up .the 600 lb trq was verified at the local international dealer where i buy truck parts .so andyL dont let your head swell ,fords got dodge trumped they just havent laid the cards down yet.also int man said the 6.0 has given few probs to them, that the turbo has been the main problem in their engines and that the injectors ford uses are the biggest problem and some turbo troubles also. i hear the late 03 fords have corrected this problem, just the same i think i will wait till next fall and take another look at all three, and hopefully by one.
How about those crash tests?
I try to look at the whole picture. With the ammount of miles I have driven, this area is a must. Trucks may break and trucks may pull but the real cargo is what's in the cab. ;)
Burner----------> :D
BigDiesel
12-29-2003, 18:03
In reply to:
2. The Cummins was updated with the HPCR Fuel System in 2003. The basic engine is bullet-proof. However, since it is using a similar Bosch system to the DMAX, the next year or so should be interesting. Remember, it took several years for some of the LB7 injector problems to start surfacing. However, everything looks OK so far with the Cummins. The current Cummins and LLY designs are similar in that it should be easy to replace a single injector if required.
Actually the HPCR cummins engine was in service in europe for a couple of years before Dodge incorporated it into the ram line-up. It's well tested by now.
While I'll agree that the old 47/re "could" be a pile of dung($3500 could however make it bulletproof) it seems that the new 48/re has most, if not all, gremilins engineered out of her.
mark45678
12-30-2003, 16:54
all set next...its still a dodge! NICE engine..... I think the BS factor is really HIGH! :D
So when is the 325HP version supposed to hit the streets?
Amianthus
01-03-2004, 07:27
I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be 2004.5. I am also wondering how the new engine will beat on that transmission. I have no doubt that the rest of the driveline will be just fine. But it's that clutch and the auto that have me wondering. Although, I haven't heard of any major complaints of the 48re, 600 is quite a jump. I hope it's up to task.
DURA-MAX3
01-03-2004, 20:21
Dealer here in Decatur,Texas has about 10 new DC with new engine coming the end of January 04. He said they may get there a little before even...
I get a kick out of the back and forth debate on power, stock verses modified. When the Dmax first came out with the best in class stock power the dodge fans quoted superior modified power (I was one). Now that Dodge is back on top with best in class stock power Dmax fans are touting best-modified power with just the Edge box.
The biggest problem with making power with just the Edge box between the big three engines is limited to the supplied air to keep the EGT
[quote]Originally posted by Animal:
[b] I get a kick out of the back and forth debate on power, stock verses modified. When the Dmax first came out with the best in class stock power the dodge fans quoted superior modified power (I was one). Now that Dodge is back on top with best in class stock power Dmax fans are touting best-modified power with just the Edge box.
The biggest problem with making power with just the Edge box between the big three engines is limited to the supplied air to keep the EGT
Originally posted by kennedy:
Truth be told, the Ford and Dodge (to date) haven't even come close to the HP that the Dmax can make w/o hard parts added. [/QB]Looks close to me with the PowerMaxCR only.
www.tstproducts.com (http://www.tstproducts.com)
Cummins even has the edge. tongue.gif
Not bad, but they still have a ways to go. Also, please re-read my last paragraph...
Amianthus
01-05-2004, 10:45
I haven't looked into the new engine much. Just got out from underneath a really bad O-ringing job. So time's been tight.
If I do recall, they will all have cooled EGR and Catalysts. I have also heard rumors of VGT being applied. But no confirmation.
As for the power of the Dmax, John, as much as it pains me (not really), is right on. The Dmax gets extraordinary numbers from electronics alone. I think the Cummins will (or has) too. Although, I believe, that even though these numbers are attainable without driveline modifications, those upgrades are still necessary. No vehicle can take that kind of punishment for that long and not have something fail.
And as for tightening up the turbo, Cummins did that with the HY-35w. It gave better spool up and more responsive lower end. But the top end suffered. Especially when one has modified the fueling. I think the Dmax is no different. Where the Dmax could really shine is with a VNT or VGT. That would really flatten out that power curve for sure. Of course, the same benefit could be had on the Cummins motor also.
As for the fatter powerband, both engines can have fatter bands. They are programmed with the bands they come with for whatever reason. Truth be told, I think it's to meet emmissions. But who knows. I do know that there is a ton of untapped potential in both engines. How to get it out and at what cost is the neverending pursuit of diesel performance. That's just the way I see it.
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