Running a Heath Chip without Turbo-Master?

[Steve O.]

Its been suggested to me that the Heath chip really needs to have a Turbo-Master installed as part of the package to take advantage of its programming.

I *just* replaced my vacuum pump a few weeks ago and don't want to eat the money on it so soon, but am about to pull the trigger on a chip.

The archives were helpful but I was specificaly looking to hear about anyone's experience with the new Heath chip and a stock vac setup, or, better yet, anyone who ran the chip with the vac system and then switched to the T-M later.

Thanks

Steve

[markrinker]

Your Heath chip will work best with about 12psi nominal boost. How you get that boost is up to you - here are three ways to get there.

1) Buy the Turbo-Master and have a tested combination with adjustability. Downside: extra expense and wasted money on new vaccuum pump.

2) Use a Kennedy 'boost-fooler' that sends a modified value/signal to the ECM, allowing more boost. Downside: extra expense only.

3) Add more resistance in the form of spring load to the wastegate arm to increase boost. Downside: inexact science, 'band-aid boost' approach.

All three approachs will require gauges to moniter boost and EGTs. Do you have gauges installed, or are you planning to install them with your chip purchase?

[Steve O.]

Mark, thanks for the input.

I do already have guages installed along with a new 4" exhaust. (Which, by the way, sounds sweeeet)

What I'm really trying to figure out is, is there a better option chip-wise (direct from Wester or Kennedy in particular) if I am not up for scrapping my new vac setup at this time, or adding a boost controller?

Steve

[markrinker]

All 'performance' chips or programmers will attempt to do one thing in common - add more fuel. The rate and curve is unique to the manufacturers (or programmer, actually...)

To burn the additional fuel, you need additional boost. Stock boost matches stock ECM settings.

So the answer is simple. Any performance chip without additional boost will result in higher EGTs caused by incomplete fuel burn in the cylinder during the power stroke, and produce more black exhause smoke or emissions.

[65turboman]

I believe most of the chips also enhance boost via the factory vacuum control system. Someone else will have to answer on which ones do this, as I haven't tried any of them.

[rjschoolcraft]

Kennedy's chip does increase boost through the factory vacuum system. I have added his boost control as well to further increase boost for a fairly significant increase in power.

With the Kennedy chip by itself, peak sustained boost while towing was around 14-15 psi when in a head wind or climbing a grade. With the boost control, boost is now 18 psi sustained under the same conditions.

I personally like the electronic/vacuum system and would recommend this route. I am currently doing some testing on a Heath chip to compare to my JK TDMax chip. Will let you know soon.

[markrinker]

Interesting claims. RonnieJoe, how exactly does the ECM control boost?

Vacuum is a function of vacuum pump speed - is somewhat variable and directly proportional to throttle/engine RPM.

The solenoid controlling vacuum is either open or closed, nothing variable here. I guess you could override ECM settings that cut boost, but that would ignore critical safeguards like high intake temps or EGTs.

So the ECM and programming of an aftermarket chip affects boost how?

More unburned fuel creates more heat flowing through the exhaust which increases turbo impellor speed resulting in more boost, at the expense of EGTs. Add more fuel, get some more boost.

To imply that the programming itself increases boost is incorrect. There is no such variable wastegate control in place on this system.

Come on RJ, I thought you were our shadetree expert! Your Kennedy product bias' is (still) showing...

[rjschoolcraft]

First of all, I've detected your sarcasm and your bias against me in the past... and wrote it off. Please, what have I ever done to you?

Second, your understanding of the vacuum boost control system is seriously flawed. Your ignorance is not a good reason to attack me and imply seditious intent on my part. The electronically controlled vacuum system does, indeed, modulate boost and control it based on a set of tabularized parameters.

The wastegate solenoid operates on a duty cycle that is controlled by the PCM based on inputs from various sensors and load condition of the engine. What this means is, vacuum is modulated to the wastegate actuator by pulsing the wastegate solenoid on and off very rapidly. The duty cycle is the amount of "on" time for a particular period. The duty cycle varies considerably with engine operating condition. How else can you have 22" Hg at the pump and 15" Hg at the wastegate actuator at idle?

At 100% duty cycle, the wastegate solenoid is not pulsing and is on all the time. At 86% duty cycle (consider a 10 second time interval), the wastegate solenoid is pulsed on and off at a rate that results in a total "on" time of 8.6 seconds during that 10 second period. This will clearly reduce the measured vacuum at the actuator and reduce the amount of force available to pull the wastegate closed against exhaust back pressure.

There, see? Now you've learned something.

[rjwest]

The Kennedy Boost fooler changes the " Duty Cycle '
of the vacuum solenoid, As I have seen on the
Laptop , same results with a variable resistor.

I have both the Kennedy Boost fooler and a
Heath turbo master. Still undecided on which
to use, Presently using the turbo master as
the vacuum pump was making noise ( removed it ).

Do not have any power reprograms yet.
Hopimg someone would include the Tran " loc up "
programming.

[markrinker]

I did learn something today - and stand corrected. So does the boost fooler, or the reprogrammed ECM change the duty cycle settings?

Sorry for ruffling your feathers, RJ. I guess the reality is I get tired of hearing about your truck on here as the performance benchmark. As for sedius intent, I'll leave that one alone as I don't know what it means - (evidently and according to you) because I am ignorant.

There are other approaches - I prefer the Heath approach for its simplicity and not the multiple points of failure with OEM approach. (Vacuum pump, solenoid, vaccuum lines, vacuum actuator.)

Please don't take this personally, RJ. Its just a discussion of tech.

[ 11-02-2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Mark Rinker ]

[gmctd]

Wastegate Solenoid, part of a Digital Vacuum Regulator, is a spring-loaded armature driven valve with three ports -

Vacuum Source
Wastegate Servo
Vent to atmosphere

Solenoid off, valve closed - vacuum source is blocked, wastegate servo is vented to atmosphere, allowing any vacuum in servo to bleed off

Solenoid pulsed, valve open - vacuum source is open to wastegate servo and vent is restricted, but not closed, allowing digital 'regulation' of vacuum applied to servo

PCM sets 67% duty cycle at idle with 25" vacuum at pump gives 15" vacuum at wastegate servo = digital regulation

[rjschoolcraft]

Well, apology accepted.

When I first bought this thing I was distressed to find out how anemic it was. I was embarrassed to get run off the road when towing by PSD and Cummins powered trucks. I then found The Diesel Page. At that time, all the talk was about the DP Project Truck and it gave me hope that I might somehow make my Suburban tow in a respectable manner. Reading other's success stories was encouraging to me.

I am simply trying to share what I've learned with others here so that they can have the same kind of hope for their trucks as I had. As for Kennedy and any "bias"... I admit when I first found this forum, I was very skeptical of him and his products. Over time, and after speaking with him, I decided to try some of his stuff... stuff that was the first available for the 6.5. We don't agree on everything 100% and we throw thoughts back and forth. However, his products work and have not treated me wrong yet. I feel obligated to speak up now and then to challenge the definite bias toward Heath that has crept into this forum over the last year. When somebody treats me fairly, I treat him fairly...it's that simple.

I'm not going to go away, at least not for a while, so don't get your hopes up.

[rjschoolcraft]

Both the boost control and the chip change the duty cycle.

The chip does it by changing the programmed data for the various operating parameters.

The boost controls (two are available) do it indirectly by modifying input signals to the PCM.

The one for the map (or boost) sensor modifies the signal so that the PCM thinks that less boost is being produced than is actually there. The PCM then increases the duty cycle to increase boost to match the desired amount.

The one for the baro sensor (on 94 and 95 L65's and all L56's, I think) modifies the barometric pressure signal to make the PCM think the truck is operating at higher elevation than it actually is. The chip has pre-programmed increased boost levels for higher elevation to overcome the loss in air density as elevation increases. The PCM then commands more duty cycle and gets more boost.

Feathers aren't ruffled. I just am a very blunt and direct person. I get criticized for it all of the time (especially by my wife ;) ). Probably should change, but likely won't.

[markrinker]

Cool. The DP has been a godsend to me, its the only way I have kept my two work trucks on the road. I owe alot to both JK and Bill Heath for guiding me and have supported both with my $$$.

I wouldn't want anyone to 'go away', then I'd quit learning!

[Kennedy]

Originally posted by rjwest:
The Kennedy Boost fooler changes the " Duty Cycle '
of the vacuum solenoid, As I have seen on the
Laptop , same results with a variable resistor.

I have both the Kennedy Boost fooler and a
Heath turbo master. Still undecided on which
to use, Presently using the turbo master as
the vacuum pump was making noise ( removed it ).

Do not have any power reprograms yet.
Hopimg someone would include the Tran " loc up "
programming. To elaborate without getting into too much detail, the boost fooler doesn't directly change the duty cycle, it changes the signal, and the computer makes the change.

A Turbo Master (yes they are available at Kennedy Diesel) can only regulate one thing. Exhaust back pressure. It cannot take into account the amount of heat energy in the exhaust stream or any other factor. It is in my opinion, best suited for use on the 1992-3 mechanical trucks.

The OE vacuum system IS quite odd, and has it's problems, but configured properly, it works very well...

[Spindrift]

Originally posted by ronniejoe:
I feel obligated to speak up now and then to challenge the definite bias toward Heath that has crept into this forum over the last year. You've got to be kidding, right?

[rjschoolcraft]

No.

Why do you ask?

[Perry]

I have the Max-e-tork 2.0 on using the stock vaccum controller. Heath had suggested that changing to the turbomaster would increase performance, but I left it in place based on the opinons of others on this list, plus my stock system still works fine.

When towing though the mountain passes, boost was between 14-15psi. Pyro always stayed below 950 post turbo.

[eracers999]

Step over the edge and plug the vacume line from the vac pump straight into the wastegate pod. I have run mine like this for 8k. So far, so good. I will admit it make me a little nervous to hold sustained boost over 20. I have givin serious thought to limiting it to 18 like RJ.

Go W

Kent

[john8662]

So.. Original post question answered?

The Heath chip DOES increase-regulate boost without the turbomaster?

The Kennedy chip also increases-regulates boost without a turbomaster!

Whats up with the Wester chip? Never heard of that one!

[Steve O.]

So.. Original post question answered?

The Heath chip DOES increase-regulate boost without the turbomaster?

The Kennedy chip also increases-regulates boost without a turbomaster!

Whats up with the Wester chip? Never heard of that one!

Well, I think, its been answered.

I was sure both chips would increase boost without ther Turbo-Master. I've been led to believe that the Heath chip really required the Turbo Master to exploit its program to its fullest potential. Perry responded that he saw 15 psi or so in the configuration I would run.

I learned a lot from the posts. Particularly about how JK's chips works with the stock vacuum system.

If I read things correctly, JK's setup may be preferable when running the stock vacuum system. Does anyone agree or disagree with that idea?

Of course, this flood of good info has me just about as confused as to which way to go as I was when I started!

About the Wester chip: An archive search here indicates they burn the chips for Heath. I assume to his specs which may or ma not differ from what you might get from Wester directly.
Steve

[Mainous]

I was skeptical about the need to purchase the Turbomaster myself. I had the Kennedy Boost Controller and didn't want to spend anymore money on boost control. I questioned Bill Heath about how the new computer would work with my existing setup. He never forced the issue but politely explained that the fuel curve in the computer was developed in conjunction with the Turbomaster's boost curve. From that point it made a lot more sense why he was pushing me that direction.

I will tell you this. I achieve the same amount of peak boost with the Turbomaster as I did with the electronic controller. The difference is that the Turbomaster adds more boost when off peak, at part throttle, etc.

The truck flat runs....I went to a local speed shop to get it on a chassis dyno but they didn't know where to pull the tach signal from. If anyone can help me with that, I would appreciate the info. I respectfully think I might be able to give Ronniejoe a run for his money even without an intercooler. If not, I am very happy with the way the truck runs and pulls my travel trailer.

[matt-max]

correct me if i am wrong, but technically we are not disussing chips here, we are discussing reprogrammed ecm's. chips are for the earlier trucks, pre-obd-2, which i believe is 1995 and earlier.

and again, correct me if i am mistaken, yes, all three modified programs increase and regulate boost without additional add-ons. however, both the heath programming, which i have sampled, and the kennedy programming, which i have not, are designed to work with the add-on that each vendor prefers.

having tried both electronic and mechanical add-on boost controllers/modifiers, i personally prefer the mechanical, as it produces more uniform boost. i still have two of each and use them both on four of the five 6.5tds in the fleet.

see my post 'westers ecm installed' or whatever i called it from this past weekend for more details on what this product did for my tahoe without any add-ons.

in a nutshell, again, correct me if i am wrong, westers garage is the programmer of both the heath and kennedy ecm's and he programs them differently for each based on their desires.

for the programming he sells, no add-on is needed. all the boost can be produced within the ecm programming and no add-on is required. my 15psi boost gauge is pegged from 3/4 throtle up in each gear.

the tahoe is producing somewhere in the neighborhood of 207hp without boost modifying add-on, without intake modification, without intercooling or charge cooling of any kind, and without excess egt's.

also, the according to lyndon, transmission control is included in his programming and i am fairly certain it is in the kennedy and heath programming as well. as he put it, why bother with modifying the transmission when this way is so much easier? the same could be said for boost control as well.

matt

[rjschoolcraft]

I'm talking about chips, since I have a 95 Suburban. But, the principle is the same either way.

Mainous,

John put a piece of reflective tape on the alternator fan and set his optic probe to "see" it. That's where he picked up the tach signal on my truck.

I put the chip in my Sub before adding the intercooler. It added significant power and lots of boost and helped my towing performance. However, I found that sustained high boost on hot days put me into defueling mode to reduce boost and IAT. Especially out west in the mountains. I could feel the power just vanish as IAT and coolant temp climbed. That's where the intercooler came in. Now the power stays there.

I have much better off-peak boost as well. Before any modification, if I ran solo at 75 mph on the interstate, I had zero boost pressure. Now, under the same conditions, I hold 5 psi. Towing my travel trailer at 70 mph I usually hold between 10 and 12 psi depending on road conditions where before (in stock trim) it would only make about 5 or 6 psi...if I could even make it to 70 mph.

Kennedy's website says that you will likely not need an electronic boost control with one of his chips. I added one to get more boost than the chip was programmed for and to minimize the roll-off at high rpm.

With the chip I'm running, shift points are higher, line pressure is higher and shifts are much firmer. I see no need for other "shift kits" or transmission controls for what I do.

The whole point is that the 6.5 likes increased boost. Whatever way you choose to get there, get there. I have my prefered method and will recommend it. Others recommend a different approach. It doesn't have to become an argument. We can discuss, debate and agree to disagree if it comes to that.

[Spindrift]

Mainous,

When I had my truck dynoed they marked the flywheel with reflective tape and read it this way.

[norm]

ronniejoe,
Thanks for the straightness, you won't get an argument from me.
I am thinking about going cheap and simple, with a fixed resistor to fool boost.(10K)
With our '95 trucks, would you put that on the MAP or the BARO sensor? (center wire?)
I would like to do the chip, but have to wait a bit (I could use the trans. pressure mods, though).

[Turbine Doc]

Ronnie I ran my L56 JK fooler on the MAP not the baro(maybe I had it in wrong place for 2 years but it worked) until it quit and left me with 0 boost. I was on a tow run and had the TM in the tool box, it got me home with same gusto as the JK fooler.

I have since fixed the fooler evidently the wiper on the pot got dirty maybe some internal corrosion. It's in the glove box with my spare FSD but I just haven't pulled the TM off since I installed it in Sept. I've made 2 18K tows with the Heath reflash and the TM setup.

No perceptible difference in operating either way with TM or a vac controlled system using a JK fooler. Only problem with the fooler it can hide a real problem, as it did when my MAP sensor went bad, fooler kept value offset to a range PCM was happy with until I would get on it and make very high boost and I would defuel when PCM could not control WG.

For how it all operates, If I read the operation description in the manual correctly, baro in either the L56 or L65 OBDII happens only at start up, MAP sensor on L65 is used for both baro & boost converting to boost during run and baro value is stored after 1st start. (So I think offset to baro won't accomplish much)

In L56 there are 2 sensors the baro is firewall and the MAP is intake mounted, same scenario baro is stored after start and the firewall sensor gives feedback to PCM for EGR regulation and MAP sensor outputs boost.

Norm not sure a fixed resistor of 10K is what you need, I suggest you get a 0-10K pot set it at different values looking for best performance, and then read the value of the pot, then you can put in a fixed resistor. I found with my JK fooler I set it and never changed it. Running a TM without the reflash or chip the fooler may be required to keep the defuel from happening as GMCTD indicated.

Okay going on a limb here at risk of being accused of being a cheerleader, I am most pleased with my Heath reflash, from Matt-Max's post evidently a Wester Garage product tuned to Heath specs, I don't know maybe so. One product I did try and most heartedly disappointed was the flash sold by BD and at one time by JK was a Z-IND flash
for an L56 was and improvement but not much different than a stock late model L65 PCM.

JK had a better flash in the works maybe its available now, the 1st version of the Heath I tried gave lukewarm performance gains, after 4 mos gathering data and sending back for tuning finally the latest offering is a real eye opener, fuel, boost and trans shift are all addressed. While designed for towing it WILL give performance gains as well.

Coupled with JKs big IC and HO injectors, it is a great package. Now playing with another version that will allow me to go full bore L65 upper/lower intake, no EGR, or MAF honeycomb to restrict flow.

Both John & Bill offer a chip solution for OBDI trucks I have no direct experience with either, JK's working good for RJ from reports on the site & dyno/tow tests, Bill's from early reports working good for GMCTD

That got long my apologies

[norm]

tbogemirep,
Thanks, that was helpful info.
The reason I am thinking about using a fixed resistor is that I am installing a turbo-master as well. So I just need something that will "raise the bar" a bit to keep the TM from coding the boost.
Does anyone have any ohm values recorded through a pot/fooler you would recommend as a starting point for a fixed piece?

[Turbine Doc]

I'll plug mine back in tomorrow and see what reading I get

[hayesash]

I installed a max-e-torq 2 in my truck. Boost with the chip was great. Until the vaccum pump went south. The turbo master came with the chip I was just to lazy to put it on. It holds boost better at all rpm ranges than just the chip did.Performance is much better with TM than without. IMHO
Pat

[rjschoolcraft]

Originally posted by norm:
ronniejoe,
Thanks for the straightness, you won't get an argument from me.
I am thinking about going cheap and simple, with a fixed resistor to fool boost.(10K)
With our '95 trucks, would you put that on the MAP or the BARO sensor? (center wire?)
I would like to do the chip, but have to wait a bit (I could use the trans. pressure mods, though). If you don't have a chip, I would start at the boost sensor on the manifold. That will cause the PCM to command more boost since it sees a reduced boost signal. After that, you might try one on the baro sensor as well.

[AndyL]

I have the Heath 2.0 reflash. As I understand boost foolers are not required, is this correct?

[Turbine Doc]

Andy,
That is correct no fooler reqired with a reflash or rechip, only required when running with stock program

[Marty Lau]

I'm gone for a week and see all the fun I missed! First Mark, I have no problem with Ronnie using his truck as a bench mark of what can be done as he has the Dyno proof of how to make power. With that said RJ way isn't the only way to make power out of these engine but are "A" way that is proven. I have ridden in Ron's truck and have got my hands on it, it's as Ron says and I have learned plenty from Ron. I have also learned from many of your posts Mark too.

Ron I like you buddy and yeah there is a Heath bias creeping here on the forum but.........Bill has earned that from many of us. John is good a guy and knows is stuff and I have been happy with everything I have gotten from John, but I have noticed and not mentioned anywhere that I know of that John has dropped his Advertising on TDP for what ever reason. This has decreased JK exposure on TDP. Bill Heath is a good guy and in my book a better business man than John, (not that I think John is poor just not at Bill's level).

I just hate to see friction between a couple of good regualar posters here let's have a beer and enjoy life and 6.5's how about it guys? :rolleyes:

[Steve O.]

Based mostly on what I've seen and read here on the Page I pulled the trigger and ordered the Heath chip for my '94, along with the Turbo-Master. I already have a 4" exhaust and guages, so I'll report back in a few days once I have everything.

Thanks for all the help.

Steve

[Marty Lau]

Steve I think you'll like the set up.
As your setting it up if you find that the Exhaust temps are rising to higher levels than you want you may have to add more boost. When I first set mine up I had it set up for 11 PSI and the exhaust temps were running high, I called Bill and he said crank the boost up and the temp dropped. I now have it so at 2500rpm it pulls 13-14 PSI Bill says that 14 PSI is the "raged edge" without a WMI or IC. Hope this helps.

[computer monkey]

I agree, with out every ones help my trip to NC would not have been as good as experience as it was. The travel trailer we got was just to heavy for the Suburban....but now it is a blast to drive. Can't wait till we take it to Colorado. Here is a couple of links.

Pictures of Rig (http://www.n2outdrs.com/gmcwi/)

specs

Diesel Page Forum (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006854)

[Marty Lau]

Computer Monkey;

You have had your water injection for about half a year now, how about a report? Do you like it? Would you do it again? What are the pro's and con's from your perspective?

Thanks

[computer monkey]

Hi 16ga SxS,
Let me start by telling you a change I did. It's a small change....I changed the quarter inch line from the tank to the pump to three eights of an inch. I do not know how much of the flow increase that made but it help any way. I still have it set to flow around 33oz's a minute free flow.
Now to the good part....I like it a lot. Again I will have to say that it has fit the bill in pulling this trailer to a T. Everyone's situation will be different, but as for me this was the cheapest and best way to go. I do not need the water cooling any other time except when pulling this trailer. There is no way I could have pulled with out it. Not saying that an intercooler would be the same but you need to read the report I made about going to NC up above.

Pros and Cons......tank...Having a tank to put the water in. I ended up using the tanks from the trailer. Our Suburban has a 42 gallon tank and will, man that would be a big water tank to find a place to put in the Suburban. The trailer has two 50 gallon water tanks that I tied into using air brake plastic line and quick couplers.

Let me know if this helps. Did you see how our trailer out sizes our Suburban? hehehee.

[ 11-12-2004, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: computer monkey ]

[Steve O.]

Maz-E-Tork 2.0 and Turbo-Master went in yesterday. TM install was a snap, up to the point where I needlessly got worried about some interference that was a non-issue. As other have said, it took longer to get the airbox out than it did to install the unit.

Drives like a new truck. Boost like I never saw with the stock chip and vac setup. Steady around 10 psi unloaded, under decent throttle. Much more boost just cruising.

Everything people have said about Bill Heath is 100% true. Some of the best customer service and support I've ever had.

Thanks for all the input.

steve

[Marty Lau]

Steve O;
keep a 1/2 combo wrench handy for a while to adjust your TM to increase/decrease boost. Again keep an eye on the EGT if your running bit high you may have to add more boost as I did, 10 PSI caused too high temps and when I uped it to 13-14psi temps came down. Just a thought.
Glad it the install went well. These upgrades are addictive the more you drive it the more you'll like it and want to drive more.

[charliepeterson]

Nice job Steve O! After you get the bugs worked out we'll have to take it for a spin to the dyno. The suspense is killing me.

[Steve O.]

16ga: Thanks. Good idea on keeping the wrench handy. No problems with high temps with the spring set for 12psi. Not sure if this will change when I put in the new IP. Was suppossed to do this last weekend but got snowed out. Hope to take another crack at it this Saturday.

Hoping the new IP and OPS will address a "flat spot" I've noticed around 1800 to 2000 rpms. Apart from that, the newfound boost and improved shifting from the upgrades is great.

Charlie, where you been?! Thanks for all the advice and help. I'll post soon about a northeast dyno day.

Steve

[DA BIG ONE]

I have the Max e torq w/o trans reprogram because my 4L80e has all the aftermarket mods there are, shifts great! However, one needs to get use to the hard shifting.

[Spindrift]

DBO,

I read your sig and saw that you have a "Warn bumper w/ brushguard and turbo diesel intake". Is the intake something you fabbed, or is it an aftermarket accessory?

[DA BIG ONE]

Originally posted by Spindrift:
DBO,

I read your sig and saw that you have a "Warn bumper w/ brushguard and turbo diesel intake". Is the intake something you fabbed, or is it an aftermarket accessory? Not really an intake, but a nicely sized steel air dam which WARN calls a diesel air scoop. Was thinking it would cause less confusion if I called it an intake, rather than scoop, but?

WARN came up with a good design with this classic bumper way-back-when and the air dam just makes it better. Narrow design too, so my IC is fully exposed to direct air flow, along with FSD cooler mounted in the L/F forward edge of wheel well.

Truck actually runs cooler now.