Injector Issue's I'm a bit confused!

[MudNurI]

Our 2001 D/A 2500 HD Crew Cab went into the dealers on Friday for some maintenance work, and some rough idle, and other issues.

The issue's we had-
Rough Idle..when you stop at a light, the truck will surge/pulse...

Black smoke- when you "get awn it" a bit

Really noticible exhaust fumes. With the passenger side window (s) down, sitting at a light the truck smells worse than it ever has

Originally we thought it was running like there was a vaccum leak.

Friday afternoon, the Service manager called, and said our normal tech has done all he could do, and the diesel tech was being called in to figure out what it's running so bad. of course, on the way to the dealer's and while they had it, it's running fine!

Saturday we call- tech's are not in, and the general manager said the trucks still inside, hoods open, doesnt look like we can come get it...

today- Monday the Diesel Tech calls, and says it sounds to him like it's the injectors. They've replaced them on 8 other Duramax's in the past year.

Now- the trucks got 97K on it, it's a 2001, and has always been maintained at this dealer, everything from fuel filters, to Mobil Delvac Oil Changes every 7500 miles. etc..

Service Manager gets on the phone and tells us that the injectors are about $600 a piece, and it's going to be close to $5000 NOT including labor...AHHHHH (that new crew cab z-71 looks better to me now!)...

He's going to try to get GM to pay for it since it's not the first, and there are TSBs on it etc...

So I'm confused, I thought our warranty on the Duramax was for 100K??

He also said the injectors are on back order....I forgot to ask him, if I go over the 100K before they get here....do I have to pay?

I did about just getting a new Duramax engine, and swapping it in, but he said those are now 10K...okay- we'll do the injectors.

So let me ask you, we've done all of the required/recommended maintenance, we don't tow/haul much - a John Deere 4610 tractor every now and then, but not often, a dual snowmobile trailer in the winter and sometimes a car hauler size trailer full of quads/dirt bikes.

What did we do that caused the injectors to go at 97K (well, actually closer to 93K we noticed the problems)

And what are we suppose to do so it doesnt happen again? We had hoped to run the truck for another 5-6 years, but we've only had it 2 1/2 and we're already doing a major repair, regardless of who has to pay for it!

Anyone not have GM pay for theres recently? I'm really not looking forward to paying for it, I think I'd rather trade it in, and end up with a payment than have the truck paid off with a repair like this!

Any help is appreciated

Brandy

[Luis]

I have an '01 2500 D/A CC just like you. I recently received a letter from GM stating they will cover the injectors with an extended warranty. I keep the letter in the glove box for safe keeping. You should be covered as well. The truck is in the shop, keep it there until fixed. As I understand your problem you are still under warranty. Look in some of the other forums and see related messages on this issue. Good luck....Luis

[MudNurI]

hmmmmm well thats weird! but good news~

We are the original owners of the vehicle- however...it was in our companies name when we bought it...after selling the company in '03 we transfered it to our name...

But we did get the recall on the tailgate strap things, so we must be in there system.

Oh- and the trucks not still there, we picked it up tonight, as the parts are on back order, and we can't be without the truck until the parts come in. Johns going to call the service manager in the AM, and have him fax over a letter stating whats wrong, and what GM is going to cover/isnt going to cover etc.

Thanks!
Brandy

[quadrunner500]

I'm certain GM is going to cover the repairs for you, but several things bother me.

1.) Sounds like you have the lopey idle problem
2.) Sounds like the fumes could be the crankcase vent hose.
#1-2 (above) are well known and documented, but if it feels like a vacuum leak, perhaps something is wrong.

It just bothers me that the best the diesel tech can do is say, "we don't know what else it could be, but we've replaced the injectors on 8 trucks before yours." (Thereafter to the next customer, "we've replaced them on nine.")

It just sounds like complacency, an attitude that will make injector replacement a default mentality.

Now...about MY truck...

3 years ago I read with skepticism about problems with the dual mass flywheel on 6 spd manual transmission models. But 3 years later, it happened to me. And the GM TSB recommends no repair advised at this time.

Today I read with skepticism about injector problems. But if there were no injector problems, why did GM redesign the heads and injectors?

I'm now sadly inclined to believe as another poster put it, it's not a matter of "if" but "when."

In view of that, it's pathetic and it makes me angry that I naively support GM's bottom line.

When the truck works to my expectation as it mostly has so far, I love it.

But there's not a gas engine truck out their that won't make it to 200,000 miles. It won't be needing $5,000 repairs along the way to make it happen.

Accordingly, I think I've made up my mind to unload this truck. The timing is not good for me, but it's otherwise a defective product waiting to happen on my watch.

[ 08-09-2004, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: quadrunner500 ]

[MudNurI]

Well, the trucks ECM and all that are up to date.....they did work on the truck all day- I mean an oil change can only take 1/2 hour...so they were working on it from 7-7 or 10 hours with lunch/break built in.

Im not saying or even thinking that this dealership/tech would ever just go with whats happened to the others.....

This is the dealership we ended up with after having those shady things happen at others.

I'll know more tomorrow after John gets the fax!

Thanks
Brandy

[crashdnt]

I feel your pain! I have a 2001 Ext.Cab 4X4 HD Duramax/Allison. I love the truck but have played heck with the service manager, dealer, corporate manager, and the Chevy customer service branch. However there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I have a letter from Chevrolet Motor Division, Central Office. Most owners of a 2001 should have also received it. The letter describes that"some 2001 model year Chevrolet Silverado vechicles, equipped with a 6.6L Duramax Diesel engine, may experience vechicle service engine soon (SES) light illunination, low engine power, hard start, and/or fuel in crankcase, requiring injector replacement, as a result of high fuel return rates due to fuel injector body cracks or ball seat erosion." Next under the title of WHAT WE HAVE DONE states " General Motors is providing owners with additional protection for the fuel injectors. If this condition occurs on your 2001 Chevrolet Silverado, equipped with a 6.6L Durmax Diesel engine, within 7 years ofthe date your vechicle was orignally placed in service or 200,000 miles, whichever occures first, the condition will be repaired for you at NO CHARGE." The letter is dated June 2004 and lists the Chevrolet Customer Assistance Center phone number, 1 800 630 2438.
After having 5 single injectors replaced over a period of 2 years, this letter helped me get all 8 replaced at the same time with the newest injectors! Good Luck! crashdnt@aol.com

[quadrunner500]

Translated, what that letter is to me is an admission by GM that they are aware they installed defective injectors in 2001 6.6L Duramax diesels.

And rather than do the RIGHT thing, which would be to RECALL the affected 2001 models, they will try to fly under the radar screen.

They've already done this to me once, with the dual mass flywheel.

To the unlucky sap with 105,000 miles who gets stuck with a $5,000+ repair bill for injectors that cost $600 a piece after the 7 yrs is up, the 6.6L Duramax diesel will be every bit the POS the 6.2 TD was.

I'm getting madder by the moment. I can't get rid of this truck quick enough. When I do, I'm done with GM.

[MudNurI]

THANK YOU!

I'm going to call John right now and give him that phone number.....

I tell ya, I love my truck! We've had our share of issues with it, but I have yet to own a vehicle that hasn't, and I expected some, with the duramax and the allison being new to GM...

We've had the steering rattle, the nsbu switch, the service 4 wheel drive and numerous updates...however, once we found this dealer we've had nothing but good luck getting stuff taken care of (do a search on my previous posts, from a few years ago...and you'll see what we started with!)

The truck will stay with us, probably for 100K more miles, or 2 more years...after that, we'll more than likely get another Duramax..we wont own anything but a GM, and we've been happy with the diesel, especially with the price of fuel lately!...

Anyways I'll keep you all updated on what happens.

Brandy

[quadrunner500]

Here is another link to one guy's problem...as always taken with a grain of salt.

http://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32299

[letsgo]

Your fuel injectors are covered for 200,000 miles in the USA and 300,000 Km in Canada go to this page for the info required for your free extended warranty provided by the GENERAL him self.

http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=007761#000000

good luck

[quadrunner500]

The more I read, the less I like it. GM knows they used a defective injector design. This is a serious and expensive problem. They have created goodwill by offering vouchers, a slip of paper saying "you are covered" when what they should be doing is a recall to fix the problem for everybody.

[4diesels]

That is a LOT of crow to eat. The injection system is the same up through the 2003's. I traded my '01 for a new Dodge at 97k miles. I wouldn't own one of these out of warranty on a bet. You are darn right the injectors are an issue, a serious one. The poll at the top says over 10% so far and there are very few higher milage trucks reporting. It IS bad.

[OC_DMAX]

GM should just warranty the injectors to 200K miles. WHY THE 7 YEAR LIMIT. If they want to impose a 7 year limit, then replace the defective parts on my truck right now. I'll then accept the standard 5yr/100k mile warranty. Its obvious the parts are defective.

The defective parts are a supplier issue. Get Bosch to step up to the plate (Knowing how supply chain management works, they probably already have).

I personally believe the new 7yr/200K miles deal was to prevent a number of lawsuits. The storm was brewing. GM set the terms and conditions, not the lawyers.

Several years ago, the State of California forced GM to warranty injectors on their 4.3L gas engines. A friend of mine had one of those vehicles and the injectors were always going away. I believe GM set aside about $400M in reserve to cover this issue. I need to find the terms of that settlement and see what they were forced to offer up.

[OC_DMAX]

MudNurI - Your absolutely correct, your engine has a 5yr/100K mile warranty. The dealer needs to repair the engine. After 3yr/36K miles, there is a $100 cost each time you take it to the dealer. SO AS A MINIMUM, you are covered by this warranty. Make sure they fix everything to your satifaction.

Next topic, as others stated above, GM has established a Special Policy for 2001 and 2002 DMAX owners. If your injectors have failed due to certain conditions, they will replace ALL eight injectors (with hopefully a better injector design). All of this is at no cost. So at best, this special policy will forgo the $100 minimum cost of the basic warranty in the above paragraph and get all eight injectors replaced for you.

Tell your service manager to get his act together. HE SHOULD KNOW ALL OF THIS. IT IS HIS JOB. YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO GO TO AN INTERNET FORUM TO GET AN ANSWER. I sometimes wonder who hires these people.
:confused:

[quadrunner500]

I'm whining, I apologize, but this injector fiasco is not just a huge disappointment for the truck, but in myself for stepping out of my league. I was able to afford the truck, the engine, but my justification for it was against all the advice to only get this engine if I had the load that needed this engine to pull it. $5,000-6,000 injector repairs are probably just a necessary but not unexpected irritant for the owners who really need what the Duramax has, to pull their boats, car haulers and travel trailers.

I've thoroughly loved the turbo boost in the high country, and the fuel range on the open road, actually going 718 miles unrefueled on one tank (34 gallon capacity).

This 2500HD is so good looking, and so solid...completely unlike the the POS 1500 5.3L '99 Silverado I had before, that I could feel the frame twist, driveline squeak, cab squeak, spark knock/ping, which they reflashed for twice, never fixed, the cold engine knock, and the failed CD player was the last straw.

I was really counting on the 2500HD Duramax to be the best. GM's ad campaign stressed that the Dmax had undergone more testing than any engine in GM's history.

I thought, mix a great Isuzu designed medium duty engine, turbocharged, intercooled, 32 valve, gear driven cams with a great German designed 6-spd manual, what was left for GM to screw up but the chassis, the one part I thought they could get right? But alas...the friggin' dual mass flywheel, squeaky plastic clutch pedal that GM saved 50 cents on each one.

I've been so friggin' loyal for a lifetime, and in the end, it seems to me the pinheads driving Turdras and Tacos were right about GM all along...the sick joke is on me.

I don't know what to do. I'm not taking another chance on a diesel, not a Dodge Cummins, not a Powerstroke Ford, love the looks of the new F150, but can't go for the 24 valve V8. Probably the safe bet says to get a 2500HD 6.0L gasser with 4L80E, but gawd that seems so lackluster after the Dmax, and I just don't trust GM anymore.

I can't go for the Turdra either, overpriced, drum brakes, underpowered, squishy suspension, and out of date.

That leaves Titan, another 1st year model from a company ranked last in J.D. Powers initial quality, with an all new, all aluminum engine with a thirst for fuel, an all new and unproven 5 spd automatic tranny, but loads of convenience and comfort features.

This is just so pathetic, it feels like a funeral.

[MudNurI]

Okay here's the update from Monday-

After giving John the # posted above regarding the letter received by some in June 2004, he called, and sure enough, our truck is one of em! We should have gotten the letter, and our address etc. were correct in their system. Why we didnt is beyond me! They were to fax him a copy of the letter, he left work at noon, no letter yet.

I called the service manager, and explained to him that "I know we're covered, per this letter that I would be receiving"....

"Well, I've got to get the okay from GM to warranty the work" ha! nope ya dont I just did...

"but, I have called GM and I am covered....I will not pay to have these injectors replaced, regardless of what you are hearing from GM"

At the end of the conversation- he was to call GM, call me back.

He called me back- "your right" (no kidding huh?)...I've ordered the 8 injectors and they're due here on Tuesday (next week)...Okay I say- put the truck in for Wednesday, and I want it back by Friday....well he says- "they might not be here Tuesday....." well...if you wait till Tuesday- there will be no room to get my truck in on Wednesday, and I'm not going to wait another week, this truck, being not even on the road a full 3 years, has almost 98K on it...guess that figured out to about 700 miles a week or so...which means, if it's not this week, or next, thats gonna put us very close to 100K, and Im not waiting 3 weeks for a repair that GM is fully aware is needed."

Okay your in for Wednesday then.....and my nice reply.

"if its not done on Friday, let the General Manager know that we'll be there to pick up that '05 'vette, yeah- the blue one with the tan top...."....he laughed!.... I didnt! I think he thinks I was kidding.....ahhhhhhh!

So by this time next week, my injectors should be here....I'll let ya know if I have anything else happen...

Thanks again!
Brandy

[quadrunner500]

I'm feeling better this morning. My service advisor called to tell me there is an updated part for the 6 spd dual mass flywheel problem, and he's ordered it for me.

Went browsing to the http://www.titantalk.com site. Whew! Talk about a whole-lotta 1st year problems...sounds like they hired ex-GM engineers.

Went to J.D. Power, looked up PIN Retained Value for 2500HD, Titan, Tundra...results?

2500HD - "Does not really stand out"
Titan - "Better than most"
Tundra - "Among the best"

:(