Incredible, end all diesel fuel quality warranty story!

[george morrison]

I just received a call from our local Chevrolet service center service manager advising me that our Chevrolet diesel engine had "bad fuel".. In that this is an imposibility, I immediately captured a sample of my BP Diesel Supreme from my tank, filtered to 1 micron, with desiccant breather filtering air and water to 2 microns and analyzed at 51 cetane index, 13/11/9 ISO cleanliness and 39 ppm water and meeting/exceeding every ASTM/Federal specification known to man!
And, lo and behold, before my very eyes the technician tested my pristine, water clear BP Supreme and declared it "BAD FUEL!"... By some parameter that the tech did not understand or know, the maximum 'number' can be 33 and both truck and new diesel fuel measured 41, clearly "bad fuel" and therefore any work performed on the fuel system would have to be paid by me as the system was'un-warrantable".......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, we have a NEW tool/paramter giving dealers the ability to dis-allow warranty claims when in fact the fuel quality is of the highest quality currently available... Period........

Developing............
George Morrison, STLE CLS
AV Lubricants Inc.
Columbus, Ohio
614-492-2000

[ 08-03-2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: george morrison ]

[BassinRVer]

Wish I knew what you just said. Are you saying that it is bad fuel or not that they tested?

[GMC D-Max]

What he said was...

GM has now invented a new test, a new "quality", something unbeknownst to George (and I'm sure everybody else, because George would probably be most "in the know"), that's now being used to deny warranty claims. How cute.

Stick it to 'em, George!!

[ore.diesel]

Go George!! Stick it to them until their nose bleeds. Gotta love it when they are going to take it where it hurts. Like ya didn't pay enough when you bought, then they gotta try and cheat ya with double speak.. LUV YA GEORGE. WHOO HOO.

[Heartbeat Hauler]

Originally posted by george morrison:
I just received a call from our local Chevrolet service center service manager advising me that our Chevrolet diesel engine had "bad fuel".. In that this is an imposibility, I immediately captured a sample of my BP Diesel Supreme from my tank, filtered to 1 micron, with desiccant breather filtering air and water to 2 microns and analyzed at 51 cetane index, 13/11/9 ISO cleanliness and 39 ppm water and meeting/exceeding every ASTM/Federal specification known to man!
And, lo and behold, before my very eyes the technician tested my pristine, water clear BP Supreme and declared it "BAD FUEL!"... By some parameter that the tech did not understand or know, the maximum 'number' can be 33 and both truck and new diesel fuel measured 41, clearly "bad fuel" and therefore any work performed on the fuel system would have to be paid by me as the system was'un-warrantable".......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, we have a NEW tool/paramter giving dealers the ability to dis-allow warranty claims when in fact the fuel quality is of the highest quality currently available... Period........

Developing............
George Morrison, STLE CLS
AV Lubricants Inc.
Columbus, Ohio
614-492-2000 So George, what's your next move? Are ya gonna keep us posted?
JP

[Kennedy]

I'm far from an expert, but I once ordered a cetane tester kit. I returned it as it ranked the best fuel with the lowest number, and I couldn't correlate the results with anything common.


Basically, I think it is a bass-ackwards tool...

[george morrison]

The diesel fuel they 'tested' at the dealership in the truck and my pump sample were the same: the highest quality, cleanest, driest diesel fuel known to mankind. Period.....
The service technician stood there with this beautiful, pristine, crystal clear sample bottle of diesel fuel and said "now I ain't arguin with you but according to this test, this is bad fuel."..

Hopefully some GM tech can explain exactly what occurred today as I cannot. There is no test that I am aware of that can yield any meaningful information as to diesel fuel quality, certainly relating to warranty repairs, that could be accomplished with this GM hand held tester...

Moreover, I am sharing this information for others in that this GM 'test' is invalid and others may well be told 'warranty void' from this test.. Since the GM "test" procedure declared my BP Diesel Supreme ISO 14/12/9 cleanliness, 33 ppm water, 51 cetane index incredibly high quality diesel fuel 'bad fuel'...
Houston, we have a problem......
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[Paintdude]

I find manufacturers will fight you most if you know anything, because they know it all. Just ask them..

Good Luck and keep US all posted as to the end result.

Are they considering your filtering system to be filtering all the lubercant out of the fuel?

[Maxter]

When my truck was in for injectors replacement, I noticed a Racor secondary fuel filter kit on the parts counter. I asked the tech why it was there and he told my that GM denied waranty to a client based on poor fuel and the client went to court with GM. GM lost and now they are instaling this kit on the client's truck to improve fuel purity maybe as a way of saying "we are still right about your bad fuel...even if we lost".

george morrison: Maybe GM feels they are replacing TOO MUCH injectors and want to brush off some off those waranty claims based on that. Its all about money... IMO a diesel truck should be able to run on the fuel that is generally available in the country it is sold. For some reasons I expect my NEW injectors to be as weak as my previous set. Time will tell.

[White Truck]

George,
I found the following information about your comments.

I am only mentioning the list of what I know consitutes fuel quality, so we are all on the same page with my answer. I am not even thinking of pretending I can explain anything about fuel quality to a professional such as yourself.

There are many indicators of overall fuel quality such as cleanliness, specific gravity, volatility, viscosity, detergency, corrosion inhibiting abilities, and lubricity. The tester used by the technician is only measuring the specific gravity of the fuel and is only an approximation, at best. The proper use of this tool must take this into account. To simply deny warranty solely based on this number alone was never intented, as far as I know. It's use was just to aid the technician in reaching a conclusion on diagnosis. It's better than nothing, but not by much.

It can't give any indication of other factors I have mentioned. The fuel does become less dense, thus higher numbers when gasoline is present, for example.
There is no magic number 33, nor is 41 out of the ballpark. The reference numbers I show list the following:

NUMBER 2-D FUEL SHOULD BE BETWEEN 30-39 API GRAVITY, AND NUMBER 1-D SHOULD BE BETWEEN 39-44 API GRAVITY

Why couldn't you have number 1-D fuel?? I know you probably don't, but that would be an acceptible number according to my information. What does this technician typically see for API readings with his tester? We could have one that is skewed for some reason here. In my area, I typically see an average of 35 for an API reading. This is using the regular grade number 2-D fuel, we don't have any premium diesel close by anymore.

Dennis

[george morrison]

The technician normally sees (and accepts) 33 to 34. Any readings above 36 is termed "bad fuel" and of course my 41 BP Diesel Supreme was a total bust..
I will be getting BP involved in this process as the truck is covered by BP's assurance program. i.e. the truck is registered with BP and has used only BP Diesel Supreme. BP covers Supreme users with a warranty covering injectors, pumps and cold weather issues...
George Morrison

[Kennedy]

Cummins has a nice tester #382-2442 This has a thermometer in it to verify test temp, and conversion chart to put into real cetane specs.


One problem with specific gravity testing, I am told is that additives do not help, and may actually lessen the reading. For accurate measurement of this, a "burn" test is required which is VERY expensive.

George, how does Predictive test cetane?

[ 08-04-2004, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: kennedy ]

[Modified]

OBVIOUSLY, this Chevy Service Manager didn't have a clue who he was talking to.

If the following info by White Truck is true: "NUMBER 2-D FUEL SHOULD BE BETWEEN 30-39 API GRAVITY, AND NUMBER 1-D SHOULD BE BETWEEN 39-44 API GRAVITY" , AND you live Up North, you better not have the Dealer test your fuel in winter.

[Inspector]

Am I missing somthing here. Specific Gravity shouldn't have anything to do with dirty fuel should it? The fuel controls on our 737-300s have an adjustment for specific gravity as it relates to the different JPs but jet fuels are usually clear as drinking water. I don't see how a dealer can deny warrenty on a specific gravity test.
Denny

[george morrison]

The pristine, water clear diesel fuel was determined "bad fuel" by the test results. It was not "dirty" (obviously with an ISO 14/11/9 range, it is cleaner than jet fuel), nor have any water (39 ppm water is as low as it gets).. The "fail" was due to the hydrometer reading outside the range of acceptability, thus the "bad fuel" rating.

BP Diesel Supreme is just that, the highest quality diesel fuel in existence with very low aromatic levels (i.e. practically no smell/odor whatsoever) and very high cetane rating. (50+)

Obviously I will keep all posted on progress with this one.....
George Morrison
AV Lubricants Inc.
614-492-2000

[Turbine Doc]

Moderators/MP,
Can this thread be moved to members forum I think it could apply to all, I can see where some unscrupulous dealers trying to blanket all GM Diesels & not just DMAXes, my 6.5 IP warranty still has some time left on it; I stumbled on this thread by accident scanning 6660 forum I don't hang out at much.

[rsgs]

I got taken by pretty much the same scam. But the Stealer I went to didn't have the tester. The Service tech told me it was water in the fuel (to which I questioned why the WIF light didn't come on) and when I picked the truck up, the mechanic told me it was bateria in the tank. I had about 20k on the truck and three (3) filter changes. They wanted to get me for $1800. for the parts and work. Then the Stealer 'suggested' I submit a claim to my insurance. I did and they covered it under comp. The Service Tech. said they see this "all the time" and it's not a warranty issue. When I took the truck in and they told me what was wrong, I told them I wanted all the parts returned. Guess what??? they disappeared. I had no way of proving anything. They took my insurance for $1800. and sent me on my way.

[letsgo]

And here I thought this fuel you are all talking about was being filtered by the best fuel filter GM could posibly install on the duramax engine. Prehaps the fuel the tech. tested was from the fuel tank and not the filtered fuel which should have removed all water and damaging partical due to THE FILTERS DESIGN and the fuel would have been perfect. But I'm still learning.

good luck

[Inspector]

good question---Just where in the fuel system did the tech sample the fuel from?????
:rolleyes:
Denny

[JoeyD]

I know a local dealer to me tests from the tank. :confused:

[george morrison]

At this point it looks like this story is going to have a happy ending. The fuel quality issue has still not been resolved with GM; however, GM/dealership are going to warranty the fuel injection pump, glad to report!!
I sent fuel samples to BP to confirm quality, especially lubricity requirements, etc. and the fuel passed with flying colors.. BP is now in conversation with GM regarding their go/no go warranty fuel test procedures and its inappicability relative to certain high quality diesel fuels; i.e. the density would reflect possible presence of gasoline or #1, yet the performance of the fuel is of the highest level.
Will keep all apraised of BP/GM progress as it could affect others with fuel system issues...
Hopefully BP can enlighten GM with the BP Diesel Supreme test issues and it become a non-problem..
George Morrison

[NFLDMAX]

Thanks for the update

[rjwest]

George, Ata Boy. They sure picked the wrong guy to Sc**w with !!!!!!!!!!

[Hotrail]

I was talking to a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago. This friend works at a small refinery, San Joaquin Refinery here in Bakersfield, CA. We started talking about diesel fuel and he stated that San Joaquin Refinery is one of only two refineries in the world that make a no. 2 diesel with a specific gravity of 29. He also said something even more interesting, it seems that when a gas station receives more gasoline than their storage tanks can handle they simply tell the delivery driver to pump the excess into the diesel storage tank. He said that was one reason he would never own a diesel. That scared the hell out of me.

[turbovair]

Thats disconcerting.

[george morrison]

"Bad diesel fuel" continued.. Engine has been repaired and truck is back in service running wonderfully. As it turns out, as a result of "digging deeper" and some excellent trouble shooting on the part of the dealership, it was not the pump at all! It was an electrical component; the component did not provide any indication via interrogation, no codes, nada..
However, with good troubleshooting techniques, definitely found to be defective..
Engine is running as new now and needless to say very pleased.. Dealer received several e-mails from "someone" that possibly prompted this in depth investigation but moreover, bottom line, excellent work by Bob McDorman Chevrolet, Canal Winchester, Ohio...

As to the "Bad Diesel" determination for BP Diesel Supreme Superb Fuel. No further word from BP or GM on the status of fuel density and automatic warranty disallow based on fuel density and declaration of superb, highest quality fuel being "bad fuel"..
George Morrison

[chuntag95]

George,
What were the symptoms and what was the electrical part that fixed it?
Chris