CAT Filter Installed [Archive] - TheDieselPage.com Forums

imported_

08-15-2003, 16:02

a bear,

In reference to your statement,

Any of the componets you mentioned fail just keep a driving with no problems. I guess if you can keep on going w/o a lift pump until a big slug of air/gas builds up in your Mega filter and stalls you out.

Isn't the air/gas problem the chief reason that the lift pump is required with the Mega Filter in the post-OEM postiion? As far as I have read in herfe there is no air/gas/stall problem with the CAT filter in the pre-OEM position.

Below is the literature that I mentioned dated Dec 2001. It describes a wear index test that compares 5 different filters and predicts particle wear on injectors/fuel system components when using each under real world conditions.

In short, the CAT 1R 0479 wins and the Balwin filter, the BF7587, comes in 4th.

Which Baldwin is used in the Mega filter?

Wear Index Test Description (http://www.butler-machinery.com/teps/teps1201.pdf)

Wear Index Testing

Wear Indexing was developed by an industry consortium to provide more meaningful and credible test results. The Wear Index number is based upon a correlation between physical damage observed on high pressure fuel injectors and the amounts of 5, 10 and 15 micron particles measured in the filtered fuel. A higher number indicates more wear and damage to fuel system components.

To determine the Wear Index shown below, a Cat 3406E Engine was driven by a dynamometer, while low sulfer diesel fuel, vibration, fuel flow and temperature closely simulated real world conditions.

Bottom line conclusions.
Four competitive fuel filter brands and the Cat 1R-0749 High Efficiency Fuel Filter were tested to determine Wear Index. As illustrated by the graph below, the Cat 1R-0749 outperformed all four competitors by a significant margin, indicating that it provides superior protection against destructive particles. As the graph below indicates, the next best filter, the Fleetguard FF5319, may cause fuel injector life to be reduced by up to 50%.

The others would rapidly lower life even more significantly. Fuel consumption and emissions would also increase. The cost of these increases would quickly exceed any price premium paid for the Cat High Efficiency Fuel Filter.

Wear Index
. Real world vibration
. Test fluid is low sulfur diesel fuel
. Constant 170

DURA-MAX3

08-15-2003, 16:18

I am currently 6500 miles with the 2-micron pre-filter cat setup and haven't changed it yet. I am running the short one. If there is a better filter out there i haven't seen it. Bought a new one the other day to replace this one and it was only 10.49 at the cat dealer. I ran these filters on 455hp and 550hp big cat engines and had no problem with them. I changed them out at 12000-15000 miles and never had one fail...my 2 cents...

imported_

08-15-2003, 16:30

Dura Max3,

Did you get 12,000-15,000 miles out of the smaller 0750 filters too? Or was that the large 0749?

a bear

08-15-2003, 17:46

Isn't the air/gas problem the chief reason that the lift pump is required with the Mega Filter in the post-OEM postiion? As far as I have read in herfe there is no air/gas/stall problem with the CAT filter in the pre-OEM position.

HB,
Fact of the matter is The Mega filter doesn't have the air, gas, stall problems in the pre OEM location either where as some cat installers also reported air,gas,stall problems in the post position. Actually I don't recall making a mention of the Mega filter in my post but since you decided to throw stones, heres the facts. The Baldwin filter you are comparing to is not the BF7639 that is used in the Mega system. The BF7639 earned a 1 micron rating verses the Cat 1R0749 2 micron rating. Let the fuel filter results speak as they already have. Like I said I'm not knocking the Cat filter because it is definitely good quality but just because it's on your truck doesn't make it the best out there.

As far as the lift pump goes It WILL NOT leave you stranded. Just ride as normal untill you change the pump. Who cares if you have to bleed once in a tank of fuel only in the summer while finding the time to change it out. Sure beats the hell out of continually running air through your engine for the life of the truck. Especially with the increase in vac from an add on without a pump. There are also as many that run the Mega post OEM (lift pump free)without issues so be carefull how you use the word required.
John has faced enough bashing on this subject. Now that his filter is yielding the BEST results in as you put it real world conditions give him the credit thats due. :eek:

Tsckey

08-15-2003, 19:27

Here ... breathe into this bag.... Geez, guys, we're talking about FUEL FILTERS, not somebody's mother. :D

TC

SoCalDMAX

08-15-2003, 19:37

Good post, a bear.

I have 2 questions in my mind about pre-oem filters and huge filters under vacuum in general.

1. I'm beginning to strongly suspect that the factory filter is prone to failure based on some of the posts here. Those are just the ones we've heard about, there may be a lot more that we haven't heard about. Why install such a great 2 mic filter pre-oem and leave a potential source of injector clogging debris downstream from it? The CAT filter is so huge and effective down to 2 mic, the oem filter can't possibly be doing anything useful where it is.

2. As explained to me by a fuel systems engineer, no pump was designed to pull, they all work much better at pushing. Having a lift pump near the tank serves 3 purposes.

A. Relieves some strain off of the factory lift pump.

B. Pushes fuel through the filter media, completely wetting it and using all of the media all of the time (getting max. efficiency and use out of it.)

C. Eliminating the possibility of air leaking into the system affecting pump/injector performance. I think cavitation is as big a problem as dirty fuel.

Here's something to think about. When the techs at the dealerships are replacing injectors, they aren't taking fuel samples for analysis and removing and analyzing fuel filters for cause of failure. GM isn't really learning anything from all of this except how long it takes and how expensive it is to replace injectors and engines. If we wait for GM to figure out what's really happening, it'll be too late. No offense to any GM engineers, but large corps move slowly, that's how it goes. It's up to us to protect our expensive investments. After driving a rental car for a month and driving an extra 2,000 mi to get my baby back, I'm not anxious to do it again. The dealership really took good care of me, but it was still a lot of hassle.

Regards, Steve

imported_

08-15-2003, 20:29

a bear,

"Throwing stones?"

Let's just stick to the plain facts as I have stated in my last post and please try to avoid misquoting me.

For example, I never said that the pre-OEM Mega filter had stall problems and I never said that the post-OEM CAT did not have stall problems. In fact I did not mention these configurations at all.

Secondly, the Wear Index testing results I psoted show that the Cat 1R 0479, 2 micron filter is the best in it's class - period. Of course a 1 micron filter should filter even better the a 2 micrion filter. But now you are comparing apples to oranges. The Baldwin filter in the same class as the CAT filter - the 2 micrion range - did terrible in the injector wear index test.

Since I had no idea which specific Balwin filter was used in the Mega filter, I specified the model of the Baldwin filter in the test and I also asked you what Baldwin filter is used in the MEGA Filter.

I never singled out the MEGA filter for "stone throwing."

You first erroneously stated that if a lift pump fails you could keep driving w/o any problems.

Therefore, I am glad to see that you finally admit that some priming would be required once every tank of fuel or else some stalling will occur, "in the summer." I guess that means all year round here in S. California.

I think it's funny how all of those other justifications for a lift pump keep appearing now that some here need one to make their Mega filters work properly in the post-OEM position.

Where were all of these "fuel systems engineers" when we needed them?

I'm just thankful there is a simple, reliable solution and relatively inexpensive means to providing better fuel filtration - the CAT pre-OEM 2 micron filter.

gene smith

08-15-2003, 20:51

got it all figured out
1st---fm100 lift pump with filter
2nd---cat 2 micron
3rd---mega filter
4th---o.e.m.
moral--wont need needle valve to adjust pressure cause it will take what the fm puts out to push it thro all this-bet i would have clean fuel-then put some of JK's trick additive in and never worry bout injectors- just put back money each week to pay for all. good-bad-stupid? Geno

a bear

08-15-2003, 21:36

Let's just stick to the plain facts as I have stated in my last post and please try to avoid misquoting me.

For example, I never said that the pre-OEM Mega filter had stall problems and I never said that the post-OEM CAT did not have stall problems. In fact I did not mention these configurations at all. Did I say you said this? Please post my quote

Secondly, the Wear Index testing results I psoted show that the Cat 1R 0479, 2 micron filter is the best in it's class - period. Of course a 1 micron filter should filter even better the a 2 micrion filter. But now you are comparing apples to oranges. The Baldwin filter in the same class as the CAT filter - the 2 micrion range - did terrible in the injector wear index test.
Did you say this? I thought you said this.

According to all the literature on these CAT high efficiency filters they're the industry standard -the best. Of course you may have to pay a couple 2 or 3 more bucks.Then you said this.

I never singled out the MEGA filter for "stone throwing."
Then in the same breath this.

I think it's funny how all of those other justifications for a lift pump keep appearing now that some here need one to make their Mega filters work properly in the post-OEM position. Stick to the facts ->OK
1. In your first post you mentioned nothing about classes.
2. Your wear index testing was done by none other than Cat. Baldwins was 3rd party.
3. Not trying to cover up the lift pump. See the next post.
4. I live in South La. and we still have winters.

I ain't takin this no further

[ 08-15-2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: a bear ]

a bear

08-15-2003, 21:52

SoCalDMAX,
I agree 100%
Here are a few other reasons I like the lift pump. Just to add a few.
1. Keeps the fuel 100% in solution. Possible cavitation eleminated. Especially with add on filters causing more vac/outgassing.
2. Quicker starts
3. Good mixing of additives.
4. Ease of priming filters.
5. If a bad load of fuel is purchased just pump it out instead of dropping the tank.
6. Taking fuel samples is easy.
7. Emergency back up if the suction pump fails.

imported_

08-15-2003, 23:14

Once again you appear to take as a personal insult any statement of fact of the need for a lift pump to run Mega filter in the post-OEM position.

Without the lift pumps the MEGA filter was trapping enough to stall the truck.

Why would the same filter, same filter media and same head suddenly stop causing outgassing with the addition of a lift pump?

Are you positively sure that undissolved gas/air is not just being forced through the filter? In that case I would imagine "cavitation" would be worse, (if in fact it's a problem at all).

Contrary to the MEGA filter, the CAT filter in the pre-OEM position has not shown any outgassing or air problems whatsoever.

No need for lift pumps, etc,. etc,. etc. No worries about cavitation.

Don't know what you are getting at with your "classes" comment. You said the CAT was not the best filter. So I simply posted a test comparing the CAT 1R 0749 with other manufacturers' offering in the same size that showed it to be the best.

You pointed out that the Balwin filter is a 1 micron filter so I stated that it was not among the class of filters tested. So what's the beef?

George Morrison's experience with CAT filtration testing is widely quoted as the basis for the need for better fuel filtration to 2 microns.

Now you are questioning CAT testing?

Those sure are a lot of reasons to get a lift pump - that I never heard until the lift pump was fianlly found to solve the MEGA filter outgas/air stall problems.

Why does that fact bother you so much? I've really enjoyed all the expirimentation.

And I'm grateful to the others here who pioneered this fuel filtration business and found the very best solution - IMHO the CAT 1R 0749 in teh pre-OEM position!

tophog

08-15-2003, 23:20

The boat has left and I'm still standing on the dock. smile.gif From strictly a filteration perspective, can someone explain the advantage of a secondary filter mounted post-OEM vice pre-OEM ... or is there any advantage? In the end, doesn't fuel flow thru 2 filters prior to reaching the injectors resulting in cleaner fuel?

ChevysRus

08-15-2003, 23:33

Well this is what makes the world go round and why we have multiple vendors and lots of products to select from. There is enough out there for everyone to select from and as many reasons to have faith in one over the other.

Some buy Fords, some buy Dodges and some even buy Toyotas. Lift pumps, Mega, Cat, Baldwin etc. We are all trying to accomplish an improvement over OEM Filters. Only time will tell if one has enough advantages over others to be cost effective. Based on the CAT Filter fuel test results, I feel the improvement is close enough for the money I spent. If others have better test results then more power to them. If some feel better about the lift pump etc.then by all means go for it.

There's room here for everything and I am very happy with the Cat setup and the expected test results I will have soon. If your test results are better then so be it. If I burn up the pump trying to suck a thick Milkshake through a straw then we will know we needed a lift pump as well.

Let the miles pile on and the better system hold up!

Best Regards,

imported_

08-15-2003, 23:38

The advantage is that the fuel filtration would be staged from a courser level in the OEM to a finer level in the add-on.

This would act to prolong the life of the add-on to at least the change interval of the OEM, 15,000 miles.

The disadvantages are the risk of "outgassing" an trapped air suffered by many members here that causes stalls and loss of prime requiring periodic priming.

Members have found a solution to these post-OEM problems by installing lift pumps and pressure check valves in addition to the post-OEM filters.

As far as I know these lift pumps have a life expectancy of 60,000 miles unless still another filter, pre-lift pump, is used.

In the pre-OEM postiion, the large CAT 1R 0749as primary filter will probably last about 15,000 miles. When mounted pre-OEM no problems have ever been reported and the fuel test results were great.

Furthermore, Nick (ndamico) has made a bracket and sells a complete kit and it can be mounted in an easy to change location way up in the rear driver's side wheel well behind the filler neck. Gets it out of harms way on the rail.

I've dealt with Nick and he and his kit are 1st class. Stainless steeel fittings, 1/4 steel bracket and guard - real nice

ChevysRus

08-16-2003, 00:01

Tophog, logic would indicate that the "looser" (OEM) filter see the fuel first to catch the larger particles and the "tighter" 2 Micron filter be next to catch the smaller damaging particles that get by the OEM filter. This would be the Post OEM setup.

However, changing the fuel system after the OEM could be a warranty issue that most of us may not want to fight with the dealer and GM. Having the "tighter" 2 Micron filter in front of the OEM (PRE OEM) is more likely to be acceptable to dealers and warranty as we are not "tampering" with the fuel system after the OEM. This may or may not be a real issue as no one has been in so far with a Post or PRE OEM to the dealer that I have seen reported yet.

The primary issue with PRE OEM is the "tighter" 2 Micron filter has to catch everything leaving the OEM with very little to do except maybe catch water and heat the fuel as needed. As a result the PRE OEM filter may clog quicker and require more frequent changes.

The CAT filter seems to solve these issues and still accomplish the "tighter 2 Micron filtering and have the capacity to go as long as the OEM (15K) without clogging. So far no one with a CAT has put on enough miles to prove this theory, but we have a few at 8+K and getting close to acceptable replacement times (10-15K) which in my case is great. The Post OEM should mount under the hood somewhere and the PRE OEM can mount on the frame somewhere. The CAT filter is relatively inexpensive as a replacement cartridge at $10 for the shorty and $17 for the Big Cat.

It's a matter of preference at this point as neither system has been on long enough to determine long range issues. Fuel test results to date indicate we are on the right track with greatly improved clean fuel moving to the injectors.

In closing, I was once in a meeting getting hammered by a client about all our shortcomings (this was a fee negotiation and they though by making us feel bad we would accept less money).

The reply was "you don't pay us enough to be perfect, you only pay us enough to be good".

I don't know if I can afford perfect fuel, but I have spent enough now to get really good fuel and it just might be good enough.

Have fun and enjoy your truck.

SoCalDMAX

08-16-2003, 01:48

Hmmm.

HB,

I've read a lot of a bear's posts, and he's a thoughtful kinda guy. His original post appeared to be an attempt to correct some statements in your post which appeared to be incorrect and cast aspersions on a competing product.

It's the peace of mind that makes this set-up the best IMHO. No other hardware like lift pumps and check valves and oil presure switches to worry about wearing out/failing.This is a clear statement that you chose what you feel is the best. Others have different opinions and they chose accordingly. Agreed, a lift pump can fail. Do you think it may fail sooner than our injection pumps? If the lift pump costs under $100 and reduces strain on the factory dual stage injection pump, what are the savings? My guess is that the factory fuel injection pump MIGHT last close to or just over 100K mi. If it lasts 101K mi, GM sells you a new one and makes $2,000 profit on a $2,000 part. plus labor. Not bad for a vehicle they sold a while ago. I'd rather spend $100 and prolong the life of the expensive pump. This is IMHO.

Isn't the air/gas problem the chief reason that the lift pump is required with the Mega Filter in the post-OEM postiion? As far as I have read in herfe there is no air/gas/stall problem with the CAT filter in the pre-OEM position.Well, here you specifically metioned a competing product and stated, not inferred, that it had an air problem and a lift pump is required. I'd let John Kennedy decide what is required in his kit. I don't own one, I haven't seen one, so I wouldn't presume to trouble shoot or judge one. I'm going to use a lift pump with 2 Stanadyne filters because I strongly believe, based on a LOT of research by the mfr of the Preporator and Cummins and International owners, that entrained air/vapors and air sucked into the system by leaking factory fittings are very bad for the fuel pump and injectors.

smile.gif Not nocking the cat high efficiency filters as they are an excellent choice but they are no longer the best product as you are stating as recorded by the Society of Automotive Engineers J905 testing. Never the less an excellant choice as proven by Nick's fuel test results. smile.gif This is what a bear had to say about CAT filters. He called them excellent twice. With 2 smiley faces even. Does it have to be the best, or will excellent (twice) suffice? ;)

Four competitive fuel filter brands and the Cat 1R-0749 High Efficiency Fuel Filter were tested to determine Wear Index. As illustrated by the graph below, the Cat 1R-0749 outperformed all four competitors by a significant margin, indicating that it provides superior protection against destructive particles. As the graph below indicates, the next best filter, the Fleetguard FF5319, may cause fuel injector life to be reduced by up to 50%. This was from a website that sells CAT parts. I'm slightly suspicious of studies done by vendors who don't list the independent lab that performed the tests. Of course their product was the best, they wouldn't have paid for the test or quoted it on their website if it said anything else was the best. I'm not saying the results are wrong, merely suspect. The very next page touts a 2 micron fuel tank breather filter. It says it significantly reduces abrasives entering a vented fuel tank and extends injector life, reducing maintenance intervals.

Wait, I thought the fuel filter was catching all of the particles down to 2 microns, so why would one need another filter as a breather? Did they use the breather in the wear test? Maybe it was the breather that actually increased the injector life. So pg 2 of the ad says the fuel filter increased injector life, pg 3 says the breather filter does it. Now my head hurts!

Where were all of these "fuel systems engineers" when we needed them? I don't know why he no longer posts here, I suspect he's just too busy. He used to post here a while ago. Docdyno. Search for his posts. He owns a fuel system engineering firm, independently contracts for any mfr who needs help with fuel delivery issues. I drove up and met with him in LA one evening and he told me a lot of VERY interesting stuff (to me, at least.) One of which was the tidbit about pumps were designed to push, but due to the vapors of diesel fuel, no mfr would install a fuel pump in the tank for liability reasons. Gasoline has so much (vapor pressure?) that there is no oxygen in the tank to ignite even if the pump were to emit sparks. It isn't until a gas tank ruptures and air enters that it explodes. Diesel has a much lower (vapor pressure?) and can allow an explosive mixture of air and vapor, thus they won't risk a possible ignition source.

Another interesting fact was that cavitation can occur just from a tiny burr or sharp edge on a fuel fitting under vacuum. Pressurizing the system can help reduce/eliminate this.

Email me if you'd like to contact him, I'll fwd your email to him. socaldmax@cox.net

Why would the same filter, same filter media and same head suddenly stop causing outgassing with the addition of a lift pump? The possible reason that comes to mind is that when a fuel pump takes a suction on a fuel that vaporizes at a certain temp (can't remember it now), contains air in solution, from a tank through 17 feet of line, up 3 feet of elevation, through a marginal factory filter (have you seen how small the element really is on the factory filter?) and through another 1 or 2 micron filter, the vacuum may cause enough entrained air and vapors to outgas from any filter. The position of the filter may have more to do with it than the brand.

as explained to me by Scott from Reliable Industries (Stanadyne vendor), they don't recommend filtering down to 2 microns in 1 stage. They recommend a 30 or 150 micron 1st stage, 5 or 2 micron 2nd stage. They also don't recommend dual stage filtering without a lift pump to pressurize both stages, based on their testing.

Speaking of testing, I read a link on TDR to a study performed by Cummins. It was also referenced by the mfr of the Preporator. Here's the quote and it references studies done by CAT and Cummins.

[quote]The Untold Story Entrained air and fuel vapors are compressible. The presence of air/vapor in the fuel injector delays the pressure buildup. The effect,

jbplock

08-16-2003, 07:47

Steve... WOW!!! ... Thanks for the Excelent Fuel Filtration Summary!!! :D :D

IMHO that qualifies for it's own link on the forum home page!

a bear

08-16-2003, 08:19

Steve,
Thanks for shedding some light on this for us.
If I would have had to add the lift pump for the sole purpose of preventing a no start with my filter I simply would have got rid of the filter. As I said on several occasions the Mega filter did not create air. It simply brought to light the problems with the factory system. It was with the quality of the filter setup and the realized problems existing in the OEM system, not to mention the other advantages of the lift pump that influenced my decision. Right in the middle of all this LEO was having great sucess with his stanadyne install. I can't emphasize enough the advantages of having a lift pump but I can only speak for myself based on countless hours spent working and gathering information on this. I can't say for sure what the vapors were doing to my pump and injectors but for a very small price I was able to eliminate any doubt while providing numerous benefits.
One thing I do know for sure is that when my truck reaches 100K miles and I'm on my own, I'll be glad for having gone through through this learning process. :D

HB,
You say you don't have vapors. Do yourself a favor and place a clear hose between your EDU and OEM filter. I think you will be suprised at what you see.

imported_

08-16-2003, 08:51

I do not beleive that censorship about the problems associated with any product is a good thing, no matter how friendly/tight the proprietior is with many members here.

LET THE CONSUMER BEWARE!

Certain filters have a history of outgassing much more than others. (Ther eI said it). One has been found to require a lift pump to prevent rough idle, rough running and stalling caused by the outgassing, air trapped in the filter.

Members here speculate that the lift pump has solved the outgassing problem which they explain can cause cavitation, which, in turn can be a severe problem for fuel system components.

These members have not satisfactorily explained where the air being trapped by this unnamed filter goes once a lift pump is installed. Does the lift pump cause the air to be redisolved into the fuel? Or, does it just shove the air through to the pump and the injectors and increase the risk of cavitation?

In contrast, the CAT 1R 0749 in the pre-OEM psotion has not exhibited any outgassing/trapped air/ stalling problems whasoever. To the contrary, users report only increased smoothness and mileage per gallon.

No extra $200 dollar expense is needed fpor a lift pump and valves for teh CAT install.

BOTTOM LINE

It is understandable human nature that members who have have alreaedy comitted the considerable extra expense and time to experiment and install the lift pump will defend their position.

However, I believe that in lieu of any problems of outgassing with the CAT filter, they should heed their own dire warnings of problems with air and cavitation when using said unnamed filter that has produced the most outgassing and trapped air - and even requires extra equipment to use it w/o stalling.

dmaxstu

08-16-2003, 08:53

I have been gone for a while and the first I heard about Nick installing Cat fuel filters, I would'nt mind driving to Sacto to have that done. How do I get a hold of Nick. My Email hlbrsma@aol.com. Thanks Stu

FirstDiesel

08-16-2003, 09:05

HB says:

LET THE CONSUMER BEWARE!

Certain filters have a history of outgassing much more than others. (Ther eI said it). One has been found to require a lift pump to prevent rough idle, rough running and stalling caused by the outgassing, air trapped in the filter.
Lots of assumptions here.

You assume because said filter is trapping air it is a bad thing and that the other filters that are not trapping the air are fine.

In contrast, the CAT 1R 0749 in the pre-OEM psotion has not exhibited any outgassing/trapped air/ stalling problems whasoever. To the contrary, users report only increased smoothness and mileage per gallon. Again you are assuming because this filter is not trapping air that there is no problem.

I for one tend to beleive the testing done by others that show air is there no matter what filter is in the system and said filter that is trapping is does so because of it's design. I for one would prefer no air in my system so for now I'm happy bleeding the air out the the filter.
And by the way I get air in the filter, but have never had a no start problem or a rough running problem because of it.

If someone were to design a lift pump kit I could install without any design work on my part I would buy it in a heartbeat.

a bear

08-16-2003, 09:05

HB,
Thanks, I was doubtful as to weather or not you knew anything about outgassing causes and filters and the affects pressure and temp has on this.
Thanks for eleminating the doubt. :rolleyes:

Kennedy

08-16-2003, 09:06

Originally posted by HB:
I do not beleive that censorship about the problems associated with any product is a good thing, no matter how friendly/tight the proprietior is with many members here.

LET THE CONSUMER BEWARE!

Certain filters have a history of outgassing much more than others. (Ther eI said it). One has been found to require a lift pump to prevent rough idle, rough running and stalling caused by the outgassing, air trapped in the filter.

Members here speculate that the lift pump has solved the outgassing problem which they explain can cause cavitation, which, in turn can be a severe problem for fuel system components.

These members have not satisfactorily explained where the air being trapped by this unnamed filter goes once a lift pump is installed. Does the lift pump cause the air to be redisolved into the fuel? Or, does it just shove the air through to the pump and the injectors and increase the risk of cavitation?

In contrast, the CAT 1R 0749 in the pre-OEM psotion has not exhibited any outgassing/trapped air/ stalling problems whasoever. To the contrary, users report only increased smoothness and mileage per gallon.

No extra $200 dollar expense is needed fpor a lift pump and valves for teh CAT install.

BOTTOM LINE

It is understandable human nature that members who have have alreaedy comitted the considerable extra expense and time to experiment and install the lift pump will defend their position.

However, I believe that in lieu of any problems of outgassing with the CAT filter, they should heed their own dire warnings of problems with air and cavitation when using said unnamed filter that has produced the most outgassing and trapped air - and even requires extra equipment to use it w/o stalling. Do you even have a clue as to what you just said?

Show me where my lift pump is, and where my stalling/rough idle/rough running condition is. In fact, come on over and chauffer me around for a day. Lets do say 6-800 miles to be certain...

I'm not going to deny that SOME have had a stall at startup after installing my filter POST OEM, but on the flip side MANY do not, and have not had any stalls.

Outgassing is not a product of a filter, it is a condition that naturally occurs when you have fuel exposed to heat and pressure drop. The Mega filter is just catching more of the free gasses...

imported_

08-16-2003, 09:15

Let's be honest here. It sounds like the installation of your filter is a crap shoot to me.

For example, how can the consumer know beforehand if he will be stuck with stalling, etc. and be required to install extra components? Or, is that something that happens out on the road somewhere?

Do you forewarn your cusrtomers of these potential problems?

You didn't say anything to me when I ordered one. Luckily at the same time I was able to read the litany of complaints here on the board and cancelled my order.

Please point out one erroneous statement that I have made about your product or aboutother products. And please refrain from misquoting me like your buddies have done.

a bear

08-16-2003, 09:25

Ditto fot the Cat. Had same issues. :rolleyes:
Why is it I hear no complaints about the Mega filters from the owners. :eek: Only complaints I here are from the peanut gallery.
HB,
Enjoy your diet of clean fuel and VAPORS.

FirstDiesel

08-16-2003, 09:44

HB

No one misquoted you. Those were cuts right from your statements. And they make no sense.

Again you assume you have no problem because the filter doesn't catch air. Why not take a bear up on his suggestion and install a piece of clear hose in your system and then tell us you have no air. Because your filter isn't catching it doesn't mean it's not there.

Because my filter is catching it doesn't mean it's the cause.

jbplock

08-16-2003, 09:50

Originally posted by a bear:
HB,
Thanks, I was doubtful as to weather or not you knew anything about outgassing causes and filters and the affects pressure and temp has on this.
Thanks for eleminating the doubt. :rolleyes: Tommy, my thoughts exactly... You summed it up perfectly...

gardnerteam

08-16-2003, 09:57

Come on, KIDS! Quit throwing sand or you'll have to quit playing in the sandbox! We are talking about a problem that may or may not plague thousands of D/A owners sooner or later, and reasonable minds will disagree. I think I can honestly speak for the great majority of D/A owners watching this slugfest from the sidelines is that no matter what all the active participants holler, scream or yell about their respective positions, there is still not a clear cut concise answer for solving the problem at hand. I think what most of us buystanders with money to spend in our pockets want is a simple basically foolproof fuel cleansing system that does not complicate the matter, does not require running back to the shop every 1,000 or 5,000 miles to bleed, adjust, or whatever. A system that is easy to change, requires no maintainence other than changing another filter, doesn't need another mechanical or electrical part to fail and leave us stranded, etc. From all the discussion on this board over the past few months, most reasonable minds are still probably left in the dark as to what will work in the long haul with the least problems. Many of the posters for either side or any one of the numerous sides do not mind continually working on their vehicles daily or weekly or every thousand miles, but there are literally thousands of D/A owners who do not want to do that and still need fuel cleansing protection. For example, I may drive 6,000 miles in 8 long days going to Guatemala, changing my oil and filters once along the way. Who wants to stop every 500 or 1,000 miles to burp the system? Also, do we really need the "best" theoretical system designed by a engineering nerd that has all the bells and whistles to make everything more complicated, or just a better system that does a more than adequate job of filtering our fuel. Obviously, the stock system is inadequate, but simplicity has its place. Several of you may battle this out on this page, but there are really thousands of us out here trying to determine what to do with money to back it up. Let's cut the personality BS, harsh words, verbal challenges, and acting like a bunch of spoiled brats. You are all good guys (maybe even Broker, whoever or whatever he is). Makes you points like intelligent grownups and work together to help solve the problem. Whoever comes up with a system or filter to replace the stock filter that simply does a great adequate job is going to earn a lot of D/A users money until the factory wises up. Smile, guys.

imported_

08-16-2003, 10:02

You guys with "brand-X" had all the symptoms and problems, not the CAT filter in the pre-OEM postion. So why should I tear apart my $40,000 truck when neither I nor anyone else with the CAT pre-OEM has had any sign of a problems?

BTW we've been having a heat wave here in S. California with triple digit temps. Nick experiences triple digit temps even more frequently - no problem! All reports are that the CAT runs even smoother/better mpg's - not running rougher and stalling like "brand-X."

To the contrary, I installed the CAT precisely to avoid all of the clear hose testing, install of lift pumps and check valves that I would need to be assured I (or my wife with our 4.5 year old) wouldn't stall out in the middle traffic.

Then you only have speculation that the lift pump actually solved the outgassing problem and is preventijng cavitation.

How do you know that all that air that "brand X" was catching isn't still being caught by "brand X" but is now being force fed by the lift pump into 5 micron size gulps to your pump and injectors - WATCH OUT - CAVITATION!!!!

The fact is you guys don't know. But what gets me is you attempt to attribute the air/outgassing problems exhibited by "brand-x" to the CAT filter which has never exhibited even one hiccup!

BS!!!

FirstDiesel

08-16-2003, 10:05

Seems the problem here is that in the process of solving the problem certain people throw stones while others have done testing and actually have seen the results of the products having stones thrown about.

I have a JK filter. I have air in it. I have driven thousands of miles without burping it and without getting stuck. I for one am glad the air is getting trapped and I make no assumptions that it is the filter causing the air to be created. Would I like the system to be air free? Yup. Would I be willing to add a lift pump to have that happen? Yup, as long as I could by a premade kit to add it. Do I ASSUME because other filters don't trap air there is no air reaching the injectors on those trucks?? NOPE

imported_

08-16-2003, 10:23

It kills me that when you stae the plain facts about the Mega filter (the stalling, rough idle, the lift pumsp. clear hoses etc), Mega filter owners get all defensive and call it "throwing stones." I know sometimes the truth is hard to take but let's be men about this.

Would I be willing to add a lift pump to have that happen? Yup, as long as I could by a premade kit to add it. Doesn't JK offer lift pump kits. Why don't you get one of his? You'd think he'd offer a special break to those with Mega filter problems.

But are you positive it is really solving the Mega air trap problems? Or, is it just force feeding smaller sub-visible air gulps into the pump/injectors?

FYI, the CAT in the pre-OEM position has never exhibited any air problems whatsoever - not one hiccup.

No fuss, no mess, no extra hardware that admittedly only lasts 60,000 miles, just smoother performance and better mpg's from some of the cleanest fuel out there.

And that's according to real world testing as confirmed by George Morrison.

roegs

08-16-2003, 10:24

Steve...you've really done your homework on this. Thanks for the excellent post!

Kennedy

08-16-2003, 10:44

Originally posted by HB:
Let's be honest here. It sounds like the installation of your filter is a crap shoot to me.

For example, how can the consumer know beforehand if he will be stuck with stalling, etc. and be required to install extra components? Or, is that something that happens out on the road somewhere?

Do you forewarn your cusrtomers of these potential problems?

You didn't say anything to me when I ordered one. Luckily at the same time I was able to read the litany of complaints here on the board and cancelled my order.

Please point out one erroneous statement that I have made about your product or aboutother products. And please refrain from misquoting me like your buddies have done. While it is a little outdated, I have a lot of information here:

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/docs/Duramx_Mage_filter_FAQ/duramax_Mega_Filter_FAQ.htm

I also send a "canned" email response requiring that the person ordering confirm that they are aware of potential air/gas related issues. This is done prior to processing of the credit card, and shipping.

Crap shoot? Please do not speak of something you have absolutely NO first hand experience with. I have not had one complaint of stalling (and will reiterate this ONLY happens at startup when it does) when my filter is installed as a pre-filter. There have been multiple instances where it has stalled as a post OE. Many did not even know that there was air present until it was mentioned here, and continue to run their Mega filters w/o incident. Some Cat post OE have had air issues as well. Read my FAQ and see why my head is more susceptible to the stalling issue. If one were to install the Cat 1R0749 filter on my filter head, I'm quite certain it would have the same traits as far as air is concerned.

Is it leaking in? Maybe

Is it outgassing? I'd lean towards YES

Why is it outgassing? Heat and pressure drop

Is it a problem in normal operation? Dunno, but there are enough injectors being changed to raise suspicion. The Dmax simply has not been out long enough to get any real, long term data, only some minor trends and tendencies.

I don't know how each individual truck will respond, but I do know this:

1) I have chosen what I feel is the best filter for the application based on performance, size, and suitability for use in a wide variety of climates, as well as ability to separate and drain water.

2) I have designed a mount that is quite overkill when compared to die cast units with mild steel raw finish units, and made it a point to collect air to the highest ponit to allow complete evacuation.

3) Filters and filtration systems are generally designed and tested when using a PRESSURIZED system. It is also a generally accepted fact that a pressurized filtration system will perform better.

My sole purpose in participation in this thread has been to defend myself and my product. I have not trashed the others (Cat-Racor) only pointed out that the Cat is not issue free, and that the OE Racor has NOT performed exceptionally well. Do what you want, but PLEASE add another filter, and change your OE unit much earlier than the GM maintenance schedule suggests...

a bear

08-16-2003, 10:53

FYI, the CAT in the pre-OEM position has never exhibited any air problems whatsoever - not one hiccup.
Mega neither
An another note the cat did experience problems post OEM. You may want to review your previous posts. Your beginning to contradict yourself. :eek:

As dad tought me at a young age. The TRUTH is always easy to remember. Non truth is much harder as it requires you to remember every thing you said to prevent problems down the road.

Kennedy

08-16-2003, 11:02

I'm still trying to figure out who had rough running, rough idle? :rolleyes:

I don't think it was GM Smitty...

http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=006478

Oh yeah, Smitty said it seemed SMOOTHER after installation...

imported_

08-16-2003, 11:18

a bear,

I never commented about the performance of the MEGA filter in the pre-OEM position, nor, about the CAT filter in the post-OEM position.

Let's keep the discussion to the facts about the filters rather than allow this to degenerate into a personality pi$$ing contest that will serve no one any good.

JK, thanks for your response. It is not my intent to bash any product. Just stating the facts and questioning some of the inconsistencies in some of the statements made in regards to the MEGA filter.

Kennedy

08-16-2003, 12:02

Originally posted by HB:
LET THE CONSUMER BEWARE!

Certain filters have a history of outgassing much more than others. (Ther eI said it). One has been found to require a lift pump to prevent rough idle, rough running and stalling caused by the outgassing, air trapped in the filter. Once again, outgassing is NOT a function of the filter, rather a function of and increase in temperature and pressure drop of the fluid.

Members here speculate that the lift pump has solved the outgassing problem which they explain can cause cavitation, which, in turn can be a severe problem for fuel system components.

These members have not satisfactorily explained where the air being trapped by this unnamed filter goes once a lift pump is installed. Does the lift pump cause the air to be redisolved into the fuel? Or, does it just shove the air through to the pump and the injectors and increase the risk of cavitation?If one were to take even an ARMS LENGTH look at the head of the Mega filter, one would see that the nipple draws from deep within the element, and that air entering the filter will settle to the ceiling of the filter head. That said, it will build up REGARDLESS of whether there is a pressure or vacuum present until the bleeder is opened and the air expelled. If no air comes out, no air is present. Pretty simple...

BOTTOM LINE

It is understandable human nature that members who have have alreaedy comitted the considerable extra expense and time to experiment and install the lift pump will defend their position.

However, I believe that in lieu of any problems of outgassing with the CAT filter, they should heed their own dire warnings of problems with air and cavitation when using said unnamed filter that has produced the most outgassing and trapped air - and even requires extra equipment to use it w/o stalling. Again, the filter is not PRODUCING the outgassing etc etc. Oh well, I'm grow weary of beating my head against the same old wall. I have a (SHHH don't tell anyone) lift pump to fit up to my truck! :D

PS. While I encourage ALL (there's a LOT out there on the sidelines) to participate and become more actively involved, I really think that one should not make technical assessments of something unfamiliar, and make statements of fact, rather should ask questions as to what, how, etc...

Tsckey

08-16-2003, 14:01

Gad! No wonder there's no peace in the world we can't even have a discussion about fuel filters for God's sake without spilling blood. A discussion of the merits of competing systems shouldn't require personal invective. If the purpose of secondary filtration is to provide cleaner fuel to the injectors, the objective testing reported right here suggests that both Mega and CAT filters deliver the goods.

Theoretically, staging the filters from coarse to fine makes sense. That would seem a more elegant solution and one that would make engineers sleep better at night. I wish GM had thought of it. Some of you have decided at the expense of your own dollars and time to apply this solution to your trucks. Fine.

Others of us have decided to install a filter that in its normal application is a primary filter all by itself. We've decided to put it upstream of the suspect OEM filter, which, of course relegates the latter to the role of primer pump carrier and water trap. It may not be elegant, but it gets the crap out of the fuel and for me THAT is the bottom line.

I don't remember whether we decided Brokers is a real person or not, but assuming he is, IIRC, he indicated that he uses PRE-OEM filtration for his meg-mile-injector-problem-free fleet. It may not be good theory, but it appears to be an acceptable practice.

...and anyone who disagrees with me is a booger tongue.gif

TC

FirstDiesel

08-16-2003, 14:07

HB says:

It kills me that when you stae the plain facts about the Mega filter (the stalling, rough idle, the lift pumsp. clear hoses etc), Mega filter owners get all defensive and call it "throwing stones." I know sometimes the truth is hard to take but let's be men about this.
Seems to me your the one that was making the claims and throwing the stones with no evidence.

I agree let's be men about it and stop attacking people and products you clearly have no information about.

Your are glad you didn't buy the Mega Filter.

Fine, I'm sure JK is too.

Your still are making the assumption that the filter causes the problems people are talking about and that yours doesn't. The clear hose idea is a way to PROVE you have no air in your system with your filter. What I have tried to convey to you but seem unable to is that because your not bleeding air from your filter does not mean it's not passing through and to the injectors.

imported_

08-16-2003, 14:37

FirstDiesel,

Are you saying that MEGA filter users have not experienced stalls and do not need lift pumps to prevent stalling?

What I am saying is that since installing my CAT my truck has not exhibited any signs of outgassing - not even a hiccup - and runs great.

So why should I tear it down to install clear hoses?

I do not know if it is the MEGA file ot if it is the MEGA filter post-OEM position that casuse it to catch the gas/air. But I call it pure speculation that the lift pump eliminates this gas/air.

As stated how do we know that the lift pump does not force this air into sub-visible 5 micron bubbles so that it clears the filter but blasts the injectors?

But I'll bet JK is carefull about promising that the lift pump prevents cavitation. So where's all the air going. If it ain't exhausting then it's going through the system.

Once again folks here are getting very personal about me stating facts about the Mega filter and correcting inconsistencies in their posts.

On another thread the MEGA filter was billed as the best in comparison to the CAT until it was revealed that comparison was lopsided and the test results were from a MEGA filter that was 3rd in series with other filters before it.

In contrast, independent tests by AV lube of the CAT and the MEGA filters with only the OEM filter show the CAT to be nearly twice as effective as the MEGA filter. Yet despite the hard data no one dares defy the MEGA filter/JK clique to declare the CAT the best. What's up with that?

Advertising on JK's Website for the MEGA filter mentions nothing about the air/stall problems and JK stated that he doesn't inform potential buyers the potential problem until he has their credit card data and the filter is ready to ship. Hey but he stocks lift pumps and all the fixins!!!!

So who's throwing around the BS? As I stated it is human natuire for people who have made committments to stick to them.

A famous Russian saying about staying in bad relationships: We cling hardest to the rock that crushes us the most.

MAV

08-16-2003, 14:52

Well.....my dad can beat up your dad! tongue.gif

GM Smitty

08-16-2003, 15:03

Can I say THICKHEADED ???

I want to get involved in this, but I don' think I have the patience..... :rolleyes:

FirstDiesel

08-16-2003, 15:24

I just told you I have a post OEM Mega filter with air. There I said it I have AIR. The shame of it all. The truck runs fine. It doesn't stall, hiccup, burp, fart or blow chunks. But I know there is air there because I can bleed it out of the filter.

YOU CAN'T BECAUSE YOUR FILTER ISN'T SETUP TO TRAP AIR.

Does this mean you don't have air??? NO

It means you don't know if it is there or not. If you believe that having air go through your pump and injectors is not a problem then great. I personally after reading info from many people a lot smarter than me have decided I don't like the idea of air in my system and am glad the MEGA filter catches it.

You seem to be in denial about the fact that there is a possibilty that there could be air in your system since you seem to want to blame the MEGA for creating it. My suggestion was for you to test your system and prove it to yourself if there was air there or not. If you would rather just keeping attacking JK and his product and not backing up your other claims that's fine. Your choice.

I for one am through with this because it has become painfully clear based on your posts about this subject in multiple threads that:

A: You don't have a clue what you are talking about

B: You are unwilling to listen to what other people have spent time testing and proving

C: You just seem determined to fight about it

Enjoy your filter.

I am enjoying mine knowing that I am cleaning my fuel and catching air from the system. Do I care that yours might be cleaning it .05% better, no so I will just go drive my truck while you staying here and make foolish statements.

imported_

08-16-2003, 15:43

There we go again another Mega filter owner resorting to personal remarks in the face of plain facts about the Mega filter.

Better make sure you always keep a screwdriver handy for bleeding/priming.

And be careful not to lose that little bleeder screw, specially out on a dark road in the middle of nowhere.

GM Smitty

08-16-2003, 16:42

Alright, I'm in. ;)

HB - What exactly is your beef? Your set-up has been proven to work excellent. Great filtering..the best numbers we have seen (with two filters tongue.gif ). Are you on some crusade to let the world know the mega traps air? John lets every potential buyer know that BEFORE the purchase takes place. I received an email shortly after I placed my order.

You're pretty sure air is not a problem in your truck, but I can guarantee you it's there. That's what the clear hose test is about, and it doesn't require you to "tear apart your truck". Just because your truck doesn't experience any air related issues, doesn't mean that air is not present.

I'm not sure anyone knows what kind of problems the air that is found in the Duramax fuel system will cause...if any. Maybe it's no issue at all, but the mega traps air, and that definitely is NOT a bad thing for the fuel system. I would have no problem with bleeding the filter periodically...that's me. I didn't have to bleed anything for 1000 miles after install, I then installed a lift pump for other reasons (that have been mentioned in previous posts).

It's clear you have a problem with the mega, and that your set-up is the best tongue.gif ...now let it go man. Your fuel is really clean, so is mine, along with many others that have tackled GM's poor excuse for a fuel filter. There are quite a few different ways of going about it, but I know my way is the best of them all. tongue.gif tongue.gif

Josh :D

Oh yeah...no way, my dad can beat up all your dads...at the same time. tongue.gif (I love the stick out the tongue guy if you couldn't tell)

imported_

08-16-2003, 16:51

I've got to admire you guys for your fierce brand loyalty. It was really something how you swarmed me for stating the facts about the Mega filter.

Hey, you are entitled to your opinion. But guess what?

I am also entitled to mine.

Keep those lift pumps operating - or else you could be stranded when you least expect it.

GM Smitty

08-16-2003, 17:14

HB - Why don't you READ some of these posts? I don't need the lift pump for my truck to run...let me say it again, loud this time. I DON'T NEED THE LIFT PUMP FOR MY TRUCK TO RUN! It will run just fine with it turned off ( I did it for awhile today as a matter of fact).

Take a little bit of time and look into some of the lift pump set-ups. They can be bypassed or the lift pump will allow fuel to flow through if it should fail.

I guess I can expect more uneducated babble now...huh. :rolleyes:

imported_

08-16-2003, 17:55

I was born in Lansdale so I'm not as thick as you might think.

I understand that the Mega filter is not causing the air but it is catching it. After listening to these posts, particulary Victory Red's problem with the post OEM CAT filter, I beleive that this air capture is probably a result of the elevated JK front location more than the filter itself.

How long have you been runing wihtout any stalls w/o the lift pump?

Dumb question: Has anyone run a post-OEM MEGA filter from a lower position?

You know I'm really a "live and let live" kind of person but when you guys resort to this personal cr@p it's kind of hard not to respond in-kind.

FirstDiesel

08-16-2003, 17:57

This is too sad :rolleyes:

Hound

08-16-2003, 18:16

Ya know, there's a saying about if yours isn't the biggest, make a bunch of noise claiming yours is the best. :rolleyes:

I'm mot quite sure why you're so spun up HB, you're apparently quite enthralled with your Cat and the price you paid for it, that's quite evident. So why the multitude of negative posts? I'm sure everyone would agree that you are truly The Genius of the fuel filter world and posess such superior knowledge that no one could possibly compare, if you would get on with your life and stop with the bizzare rant. :(

imported_

08-16-2003, 18:43

I don't know why opinions have to turn into "you don't know jack, and you're and idiot" threads. (quoting NO ONE, just my opinion)

I drive a Duramax and I think ALL powerstrokes SUCK. PERIOD. Am I an idiot, do I deserve to get flamed, I don't know but I would rather hear why someone else likes their powerstroke then someone calling me uneducated. If I don't want to understand your point of view, be content that you tried to change mine.

On edit:

Actually, I don't want to know why you like your powerstroke, I was just being polite... :rolleyes:

TDP is usually pretty good in this regard, but I am starting to see it more and more. I don't mind product bashing, mine is the best blah, blah, blah......That keeps it interesting, and us smart guys can sort through the BS and do what's the best for us.

BTW, I am running a CAT filter post OEM and I just bought all my parts for the lift pump today. ;)

imported_

08-16-2003, 18:46

Heck, I was contenmt to just let the Mega filter folks do there own thing. But then everytime I state a few facts they come back at me with personal attacks and even more misleading statements that need even more correcting...and so forth.

Hey did GM Smitty ever say how long he had been running hius Mega filter w/o a lift pump, w/o a stall?

That sounded like something positive for the Mega filter!

FirstDiesel

08-16-2003, 18:53

Okay I lied just like HB. I'm back.

I'm just tired of his on going claims he's telling the truth about the Mega Filter and poor poor HB is being attacked for telling the truth. I haven't seen anything but his opinions yet.

HB I'll answer your question. My Mega Filter has been on my truck for almost 10,000 miles. I haven't bled it in at least 4k, maybe more.
And if you had taken the time to read my previous posts instead of crying so much you would see I told you I have NEVER had a stall.

Kennedy

08-16-2003, 19:16

Originally posted by HB:

I understand that the Mega filter is not causing the air but it is catching it. After listening to these posts, particulary Victory Red's problem with the post OEM CAT filter, I beleive that this air capture is probably a result of the elevated JK front location more than the filter itself.

How long have you been runing wihtout any stalls w/o the lift pump?

Dumb question: Has anyone run a post-OEM MEGA filter from a lower position?

Have you actually LOOKED at where my filter is mounted? It doesn't get much lower than that.

So, after 170 or so miles on the Hog to clear my head, I'll try a brief explanation:

We all know that gas rises in a fluid. Imagine the Mega Head as a Letter T The bottom of the stem is where the fuel is drawn from. The fuel enters from the "armpit" of the T just below the wing. Any free gas at this point will stay up top...

OK, I have brats to grill, some AWESOME white cheese curds to snack on, Point beer to drink and a few hundred watts (thanks to Doug@auto-d.com for the help with 15" DCM sub) of Steely Dan rattling the walls and everything not bolted down...

WI, the land of cheese curds and beer farts... :D

Oh yeah, did I say that I've had my Mega mounted POST OE w/o a lift pump) on my truck for 18k now and have NEVER had an air related stall or issue?

jbplock

08-16-2003, 19:28

some wisdom from the Good Book …

Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. (Prov 23:9)

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise. (Prov 12:15)

GM Smitty

08-16-2003, 19:29

Only had the mega on for about 1000 miles w/o the lift pump. No stalls or any other air issues, just a better running truck. I wanted to let it on by itself for awhile to see if air issues arise, but the lift pump was staring at me everyday on the bench, and I had a free day, so I installed it.

It's really a waste of everyone's time when these posts turn into this stupid pointless arguing. I think what most of us want are facts concerning fuel filtration..and that's what I'm trying to get at.

imported_

08-16-2003, 20:20

GM Smitty,

You are so right:

It's really a waste of everyone's time when these posts turn into this stupid pointless arguing. I think what most of us want are facts concerning fuel filtration..and that's what I'm trying to get at. Just look below at the stuff I had to wade through today - even stooping to using the Lord's words in vain...

[quote]some wisdom from the Good Book

dmaxalliTech

08-16-2003, 20:30

Hmm, interesting thread. Sounds like fun, so I thought I would jump in, I hope ya'll dont mind!

First, let me be clear to state that I do have the mega filter . I recieved three email from John before the order was even processed regarding the possiblities of air. I ignored them. I have had my filter on for approx 10k and did not have any trouble with it until I changed the oem filter out. After that I get a stall every 4 days, usually first thing in the morning. I figured that since the stall developed after replacment of the oem, I replaced it again and bled. NO problems since. I have not seen a CAT filter set up before, but I understand them to have good filtering capabilities. I have seen the Racor set up that Greg L sells and it seems like a good setup. Point? Any filtration added is good. I dont care where you get it or who sold it to you..

----ZIP----

Flame suit on.....

I have noticed that most have installed the Cat pre oem and those with the mega have installed post oem. Could this be the difference? What if we swap ends?

I am the furthest one in here from being a scientist... but..If you take ice water in its natural form, at 32* and put it in a 0 pressure situation, not a vacuum, just 0 pressure. By simply raising the temp of the water .5 degrees, you can make the water 'boil' or vent its 'air' If you add just 1 or 2 psi to

DieselDo'er

08-17-2003, 01:44

What alot to digest

I have a 01, which makes me very leary of keeping the beast. I love the truck alot, probably because of the big smile.gif it keeps putting on my face. I have been thinking about trading it in for a gasser tho :confused: . I now know that our OEM filter does not filter as well as what was hoped. With 45,000 miles now on my truck, I had the dealer changing the fuel filter every 15,000 miles, so who knows what damage has already been done. If I could make up my mind to what filter is the best I would jump on the brand x bandwagon.

It seems to me both filters do a better job of filtering than our OEM. The mega catches potential air that some how shows up in our fuel that our OEM did not. Some have problems with this and others do not. What I am not sure about, that maybe, the Cat filter setup may not be having the problems of air in the fuel because it is back closer to the fuel tank which means it does not have to deal with all the connections, sharpedges(disrupting fuel flow), and even poor seating of a replaced OEM fuel filter or what ever might be causing or introducing air into our system.

HB, I was wandering, that since our OEM filter could not detect air in our fuel, which then would cause poor engine perfomance. What makes you so sure that if air is being introduced into or fuel system after the point you have the cat system installed that you would know it? Now I do like the fact that since the Cat system is installed before the OEM filter system that there would be less waranty concerns compared to where the Mega system is installed as far as GM is concerned. Right now all I have is your best guess and I quote you from your third post into this thread.
I know this is unscientific but after Nick installed the big CAT filter the acceleration/power feels noticeably smoother on the highly filtered fuel Maybe cleaner fuel may make it feel like it has more acceleration/power, but still how do you know that air is still not present? Then agian none of us knew we had air in our fuel until some put on the Mega filter. You also made a good point, and that was, what happens to all the air that was accumulating in the filter once a lift pump is installed? :confused:

I am not sold on any system as of yet, and with fuel requirements changing even more in the next few years who knows what else we will have to do battle with. I bought this truck thinking I would have it for 8-10 years, does not look like it is going to be a easy fight. I sure enjoy my truck and all it's power, but is all this worth it. The engine and tranny was approx a 6000 dollar option that I was hoping would be more or less a worry free part of my truck that would give it the ability to outlast a gasser. I do not want to be re-engineering it every year.

HB, please do not think this is a personal attack. I am just trying to find out what works the best for the money. Maybe I should take a expensive risk and wait for the injectors to go under waranty than once they have been replaced put the filter of choice on to protect my new and hopefully improved injectors! But with my luck it will be around 100,001 miles

SoCalDMAX

08-17-2003, 02:48

Wow!
I go to LA for a day to look into a possible tranny upgrade, and things get a little interesting. ;)

I met a great guy today who owns a performance tranny shop. Previously he owned a diesel performance shop. WOW! A diesel head who owns a performance tranny shop. Across the street from Transgo. Am I in heaven or what? :D

Within 3 minutes of meeting him, I told him I dynoed 400rwhp (guesstimated 500hp) and needed a tranny that could take 600hp and up to 1,000 ft-lbs of torque, just in case I started hanging out with Sdaver or Mackin. :eek:

He corrected me, saying I was probably making 425 or 430hp at the crank. He said tranny losses are not percentages, but a fixed number.

Here's the fuel part: Mfrs rate their engines on dyno cells with clean, unaerated fuel from a large tank that sits higher than the engine with no accessories attached. So GM rating the Dmax at 300hp was under ideal fuel conditions with 30 hp of accessories removed. I had already heard about the large elevated fuel tanks before from another source, this was the first time I'd met someone who was telling me info that was on the tip of my tongue.

He then went on to say that air in fuel systems is a major cause of poor performance, loss of power and lower fuel economy, which I've been preaching for a while now.

Then I found out he used to own a diesel performance shop and dealt with all of these issues and more. Remember, we're not inventing anything new here, the Cummins guys have hashed this all out before any of us took delivery of our Dmaxes.

I spent 7.5 hrs in his shop with ssmokeybear talking diesel performance, tranny setup for various purposes (Joe Avg. vs Towing vs Pulling vs drag racing) engine power curves and peak power levels.

He subscribes to the TDR mag and guess what articles they had in there... info about the Dmax fuel system vs the HPCR system on the 3rd gen Cummins.

Cummins is using a fuel system nearly identical to ours. Injectors, fuel rail, injection pump. The big difference: they have a low pressure 38 gph LIFT PUMP mounted near the FUEL TANK which PUSHES FUEL through the factory fuel filter and assists the DUAL STAGE INJECTION PUMP. They made a point of the fact that we have a manual priming pump while they have a full time lift pump.

The article stated that lift pump outlet pressure measured pre-filter was not important, but that up to 5psi could be lost through the OEM filter and then something about 6 in/hg. IIRC this was max allowable vacuum measured between the filter and injection pump. Knowing how tight the bean counters are and their mandate to shave a penny everywhere possible, why did Dodge include a lift pump at their expense if it wasn't absolutely necessary? Perhaps they were more thorough in testing than other companies have been.

Then I found an ad in the TDR for a device which looks remarkably like the Fuel Preporator and is called FASS or FASST, marketed by Diesel Performance Products. It is advertised to increase fuel economy, power by up to 20hp, increase injector and pump life, smoother idle, quieter running, filters fuel down to 10 microns and separates water. It removes entrained air in the fuel, sells for $650 and uses Fleetguard filter elements.

So I guess even Helen Keller can see what my point is. In the near future, I'll be taking photos of:

1. My dual stage filter setup before installation
2. The fuel tank pickup
3. How quick disconnect fittings look when disconnected and why they can leak under vacuum
4. How much air ends up in a clear hose at the OEM filter with a completely stock fuel system
5. Dual stage filter system installed.
6. How much air ends up in clear hose at OEM filter location with Stanadyne filters and OEM bypassed.

I've always tried to limit my comments to technical issues, remaining open minded and reasonable while trying not to take offense at anything. So I'll just make this one observation, and it's not meant to be critical, I've seen the same behavior before many times.

I'm often surprised at the single minded focus that can be displayed by some people when he/she feels they are absolutely right and the other people are clueless. Even to the exclusion of reason and totally ignoring all evidence presented by the other side. To be honest, I'm sure at first it appears that I'm exactly the same way. What I try to do is stick to documentation, or something or someone credible.

IMHO, the majority of people posting on this thread have stated that a lot of different filters work great, which one you choose is not important. The point is you've done something to better filter your fuel.

I just can't understand why some people feel it's necessary to force their opinions and choices upon others. Environmetalists, politicians, attorneys, militant pro/anti abortionists and gun control nuts all strike me the same way. Just not happy unless the majority is bending to their will.

I think the Mega filter is great, the CAT filter is great, as great as all of the other filters that we've chosen to use. I chose the Stanadyne for my purposes. I just couldn't sit and read someone bash another for some unknown reason. I certainly hope there isn't some kind of agenda behind it.

Regards, Steve

mackin

08-17-2003, 05:10

Hot Diggidy this "were" a good one ....
Lock and load .... :D

I'm going to be pushing my own product soon ,,, I'm gonna cut me open a coffee can stuff it full of tampons seal her back up add couple high speed Internet connection ports, market it as a Diesel Page PMS rage filter ... tongue.gif

Mac :eek: :eek: :eek:

ram/tx

08-17-2003, 06:36

mackin---My wife says she wants two of your filters, they might work wonders in other area's as well. :D :D

JEBar

08-17-2003, 06:37

Mackin.... smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif
"market it as a Diesel Page PMS rage filter" Fortunately Mack, I am happy to say that there is probably a pretty small market for your product .... however, it is also pretty clear that some who have it, have it bad .. so there could certainly be some degree of demand ;)

Last year I was able to attend the diesel get-together Terry and others put on in Cornwall, Conn. While there, it was my pleasure to meet many folks who post on this forum. Mackin drove my truck :eek: and has become a trusted friend and advisor. This year I stopped by JK's on the way back from a trip out west, met him for the first time and had him install a Mega Filter and other products on my truck. He too has become a trusted friend and advisor. All of this is being said to make the following point. I have talked with the service manager of my local dealership (who I have known for over 20 years) and am sold on the concept of post OEM filtration. That is not intended to throw any remarks (positive or negative) towards other filtration systems. JK's filtering system is excellent and I have every confidence in it. I keep exceptionally detailed records on all my vehicles and can say that my towing mileage has consistently improved .5 to 1.0 mpg since adding the Mega Filter. I look forward to installing JK's lift pump and doing a longterm, documented test of the entire system ... :cool: :cool: Jim

[ 08-17-2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: JEBar ]

hoot

08-17-2003, 06:42

A product that is installed into a critical path such as the fuel system needs to be compatible with the system as a whole.

If the product "creates" another problem at the same time it cures another, it was not engineered or tested properly IMHO. That doesn't mean it's not a good product. It just has some additional testing and changes or usage recommendations needed.

What bothers me is when manufacturers put out poorly tested products and use John Q Public to do the dirty work.

These forums are great avenues to compare notes and experiences... put great minds together and tackle the issues. Forums are also where some of the early ideas develop through this persistant group that continues to expand and develop. You have different levels of people doing different levels of engineering. For the small vendors with there own shops, they can't afford nor have the resources to do the research a large company can. On the other hand, larger companies have higher liabilities and look at larger markets.

That's why we are doing much of this testing ourselves. The business savvy get to put it all together and make a few bucks off these ideas. That's great except when the product is something in a critical path like a fuel filtration system.

All I'm saying is it would have been much easier if GM did it right the first time.

[ 08-17-2003, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: hoot ]

D'Max_2_DA_Max

08-17-2003, 08:02

I have now asked this question three times and the experts that are willing to talk up, down or neutral about their favorite solution haven't responded yet. Someone has to know!! So that makes me wonder, does it even matter? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

My question was, is and may still be if someone doesn't respond: :confused: :confused:

Would someone help me understand what is meant by "absolute" as it is used to describe these filters?

What is the difference between a 2 micron 95% and a 2 micron 98%? I can do the math, 3%, but are either absolute, are both absolute, or are neither absolute??

Is there a % threshold that determines if it's absolute or is it something else???

Kennedy

08-17-2003, 08:08

Just wanted to make sure that it was clear that my participation in this thread was to defend allegations made by a party who clearly did not understand the product, it's installation, or design features as well as how it was being marketed. Since that appears to have been accomplished ( It should be obvious by now) I guess my job is done and I have a phone junction to rewire...

Dave Lewis

08-17-2003, 08:21

SoCalDMAX,
Do you have any more info on the filter setup from Diesel Performance Products. I searched but could not find anything.

imported_

08-17-2003, 09:21

The Mega fans here have been answering critical questions with mostly personal cheap shots.

You tout the wonderful air capturing qualities of the Mega system Qualities that for many require the install of a lift pump, but you cannot answer the main question:

Where does the air go when once the lift pump is installed?

Since it is no longer being exhausted from the system by hand priming/bleeding, then I must assume it is either being redisolved or being force fed through the filter to the pump and injectors.

In either case it appears the wonderful air removal qualities of the Mega system are being defeated/canceled by the lift pump.

In such a case then I must ask thenext logical question:

If you are not removing air why bother going through the added expense of the lift pump, pre-lift pump filter, check valves, etc. when there are much simpler solutions available?

In lieu of an answer to the air question the Mega filter guys then came out the next false justification for their lift pump system:

Assisting a potentially overburdened vacuum pump.

But George Morrison's research contradicts the need for this:

In talking with a Racor engineer last week, our Bosch pump is consertavitely rated 60 inches! Our current OEM filter draws less than 8 inches, so an additional filter is no problem; in fact GM is currently working on a primary to put in between the present filter and the tank. What do you think that is telling us
It can therefore easily handle a both a primary and secondary fuel filter, especially if one or both are synthetic or microglass media. Moreover, if it is 'clean' fuel that the pump is processing, THAT is the key to both pump and injector life. i.e. if the pump has twice the load, if the fuel is ultra-clean, the increased load is much better than processing dirty fuel at half the load..
The Original George Morrison Fuel Filter Advisory (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=004373)

About the question of "Open Minds." As I have stated it is human nature that, once committed, we stick to one thing. The Mega fans have done a lot of work to get their MEGA filters working w/o stalling. In the end many need a lift pump with an expected service life of 60,000 miles - and stil do not know where the air went to.

I stated that IMHO the CAT provided the best filtration and backed it up with hard data from George Morrison's AV lube. And it does it w/o the added expense of a lift pump[ and other harware that dopubles the cost of the Mega filter.

The Mega fans went nuts and, despite the hard data, all of these supposed "open minds" refuse to accept the fact of the CAT's superior filtration claiming, at best, that it is equal.

As far as marketing goes. JK' advertisement for his Mega filter makes no mention of the potential air/stalling issues suffered by many. He admitted that he waits until it's about ready to ship, and the customer has already taken the hook, to send a warning of potential air issues.

So I guess the cheap shot artists will have another field day. But screw it. The truth is the truth - period.

FirstDiesel

08-17-2003, 09:51

Crying again already???

Posting selective info??

I am going to get a bit esoteric here but another reason I like John Kennedy's setup is that John's post filter serves as a wonderful dampener for the harmonics that back-feed through the fuel from the injector/pump firings. These vibrations act like an ultra-sonic cleaner for the fuel filter/water separator. CAT experienced this when they changed from a 20 micron to a 7 micron absolute fuel filter to capture the 7 micron particle size. The 7 micron filter did not capture a significant amount due to the backfeed harmonics. Thus CAT had to switch to a 2 micron absolute (beta 200) to achieve a 7 micron beta 200 level cleaning. So, we should have some synergism here with John Kennedy's setup. By dampening the injector backfeed at the first filter, our OEM filter/water separator performance should be enhanced appreciably as it is going to have almost lab conditions to work in and not ultra sound cleaned constantly. At minimum, the OEM ultra sound should be minimized.. This will also enhance the water separation capability as the firing frequency serves to maintian water in loose solution.. Plus, my mentor always said "send a man to do a boy's job" and John is doing just that with his filter arrangement..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Right from the link you post. Seems George thinks JK's filter is pretty good.

For some reason you have grief about this. Why not just use your filter and be happy and let the guys who have the Mega filter use theirs too. If we want to install a lift pump so what?? Does it hurt you?? And let's see in 200k what shakes out and who was right.

imported_

08-17-2003, 10:15

Cheap shots # 1 and 2:

Crying again already???

Posting selective info??
Censorship and cheap shots will not answer the question:

Where does the previously trapped air go with the addtion of the lift pump? Wouldn't it still cause the same air cavitation that the Mega filter's air trap qualities were puportedly supposed to prevent?

A little grasping in your interpretation of George's post as specifically praising JK's MEGA filter.

George was praising the post-OEM position and JK's efforts to find a solution. Efforts which I praise as well:

John's post filter serves as a wonderful dampener for the harmonics that back-feed through the fuel from the injector/pump firings. As far as I know George has not weighed-in on the post-OEM Mega filter air/stall issues or the lift pump to prevent the stalls.

Hey, GM Smitty, you can install 10 lift pumps for all I care!

As stated in lieu of proving answers to my air questions and acknowledgement of the fact of the CAT's superior filtration, people like you are making personal allegations about me that I feel the need to respond to.

I reserve the right to discuss issues here and to quote experts just as much as anyone else. Who are you to tell me not to?

imported_

08-17-2003, 10:17

Congratulations you've scored cheap shots # 1 and 2 for today and are the reigning Cheap Shot Artist:

Crying again already???

Posting selective info??
Censorship and cheap shots will not answer the question:

Where does the previously trapped air go with the addtion of the lift pump? Wouldn't it still cause the same air cavitation that the Mega filter's air trap qualities were puportedly supposed to prevent?

A little grasping in your interpretation of George's post as specifically praising JK's MEGA filter.

George was praising the post-OEM position and JK's efforts to find a solution. Efforts which I praise as well:

John's post filter serves as a wonderful dampener for the harmonics that back-feed through the fuel from the injector/pump firings. As far as I know George has not weighed-in on the post-OEM Mega filter air/stall issues or the lift pump to prevent the stalls.

Hey, GM Smitty, you can install 10 lift pumps for all I care!

As stated in lieu of proving answers to my air questions and acknowledgement of the fact of the CAT's superior filtration, people like you are making personal allegations about me that I feel the need to respond to.

I reserve the right to discuss issues here and to quote experts just as much as anyone else. Who are you to tell me not to?

a bear

08-17-2003, 10:27

HB,
This was the question you asked that that prompted me to post that you didnt know jack about our fuel system. (Which is a FACT)

To state the FACTUAL answer to your uneducated question. By removing the vac the free air has no chance to form in the first place. GO BACK; READ; LEARN. I myself worked the numbers based on the outgassing web page formula posted by Lone Eagle
and based it on my recorded fuel temp in the pics. The FACTS are that our system outgassing starts at near 2.5 "HG vac. Our systems run a lot lower than this. So in short without the lift pump the vapors are there. Even with just the OEM restriction. Now add another filter and.... :eek:

a bear

08-17-2003, 10:41

I'd like to make a request for MP to either remove this person from the DP or we just quit corresponding with him all together. It's things like this that separate us from other forums. This guy is going to start a trend. Frankly I think he is fixing to go postal and has nothing positive to offer.

imported_

08-17-2003, 10:49

Cheap shots 3 and 4..

a bear,

Funny you didn't mention this yesterday but gave me a whole list of other reasons to install a lift pump like to help the factory pump, easy priming, ability to pump out a bad load of fuel, etc. - nothing about YOUR theory of the lift pump pressure counter-acting the vacuum to prevent outgassing.

In any case, your statement directly contradicts DMAX/ALLI TECH who stated that it was PRESSURE, not a vacuum, that caused liquid to release it's air...

If you take ice water in its natural form, at 32* and put it in a 0 pressure situation, not a vacuum, just 0 pressure. By simply raising the temp of the water .5 degrees, you can make the water 'boil' or vent its 'air' If you add just 1 or 2 psi to
Now who are we to believe? A self-annointed scientist like you, or, a trained and qualified Duramax technician?

The fact of the matter is that no-one really knows what happens to the air.

It appears the Mega filter fans just found a way to make the MEGA filter run w/o stalling then, "post ipso facto," invented all of these other justifications for the added time and expense of using the lift pump, which JK is more than happy to sell them!

Have you MEGA filter fans ever heard of "Target Facination."

FirstDiesel

08-17-2003, 10:50

Funn y from me things like that are cheap shots but from you they are either your opinion or telling of the truth.

Like a bear said why don't you take the time to read what people have said and are doing and learn. Instead you just keep throwing out untrue accusations.

Are there problems in the DMAX fuel system?? It would seem so. Your filter is not the cure and neither is the MEGA. The cure might be a lift pump whether you like it or not. Why were ther lift pumps on previous systems??? Why is Cummins putting one on their new engine?? Maybe GM made a mistake leaving it off the DMAX.

But that can't be the case, can it?? It's all JK's fault, right??

I'm with a bear on this. This guy doesn't want to learn or contribute he wants to attack JK and the filter he seems to hate.

sdaver

08-17-2003, 10:54

he kinda reminds me of ole socaldieselnewbie.......and he was from the same neck of the woods.........seconded :D ........lift pumped, 3 filtered, clean fueled and happy for 5k miles :D

imported_

08-17-2003, 10:56

Cheap shots 5 & 6... and counting,

Quote for us just one untruthful statement of fact that I have made, or, one unfair accusation -just one cheap shot that I have made. All of my factual statements are backed by hard data.

Don'tr waste your Sunday gong back to look because there are none.

I am a grown man and I do not need to stoop to such juvenile behavior to engage in a discussion.

FirstDiesel

08-17-2003, 11:09

This has gotten so sad it's actually funny.

I'm outta here and going for a drive in my JK Mega Filtered Dmax with it's air and all.

imported_

08-17-2003, 11:21

Yea, I didn't think you could back up your stement that I made unfair accusations and that I attacked JK.

To the contrary during this whole discussion, I have repeatedly plead for members to please stick to the facts and to resist making personal attacks.

In the end, IMHO the pre-OEM CAT filer is still the best solution for fuel filtering needs - as backed up by the hard data!

Dave Lewis

08-17-2003, 12:15

Just to clear something up, it is not pressure that causes the release of air but the lack of it. A liquids vapor pressure determines at what point it will "boil". The two best and easist examples are the cooling system in your truck and a high pressure steam cooker. In your cooling system the radiator cap allows the system to pressurize which increases the boiling point of the fluid. That is why when you remove the cap when the engine is hot it sprays out steam. You have just reduced the pressure in the system enough to cause it to boil. The same goes for the pressure cooker. Both of these increase the pressure and temperature at which the fluid will boil (outgas). In our trucks with the combination of a "vacuum" which is not really a vacuum but a pressure less than atmospheric and the increased temperature of the fuel due to engine heat, you are greatly reducing the point at which the fuel will outgas. So it doesn't really matter whose filter you are using the air is there and some systems will show it differently than others, period.

mackin

08-17-2003, 12:38

Originally posted by D'Max_2_DA_Max:
I have now asked this question three times and the experts that are willing to talk up, down or neutral about their favorite solution haven't responded yet. Someone has to know!! So that makes me wonder, does it even matter? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

My question was, is and may still be if someone doesn't respond:
Would someone help me understand what is meant by "absolute" as it is used to describe these filters?

What is the difference between a 2 micron 95% and a 2 micron 98%? I can do the math, 3%, but are either absolute, are both absolute, or are neither absolute??

Is there a % threshold that determines if it's absolute or is it something else??? Here you go bub =>
=>Filter micron ratings are often based on one of these methods, but with possible variations:

A. Nominal Micron Ratings
B. Absolute Micron Ratings
C. Multi-Pass Beta Ratings

A) The Nominal Micron Rating usually means the filter can capture a given percentage of particles of the stated size. For example, a filter might be said to have a nominal rating of 90%, 10 micron size.

B) The Absolute Micron Rating is a single pass test and is usually obtained by passing fluid containing glass beads through a flat sheet of the filter material. Any beads that pass through are captured and measured.

C) The Multi-Pass Beta Rating has been accepted by many machinery manufacturers, as well as filter manufacturers, especially for filters used in fluid power applications; hydraulics, controls, transmissions, power steering and so forth.

Source (http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/89-5R.html)

My electric can open just took a dumper , PMS filters are on B/O .... Typical manufacture can't make promished delivery date ....

Mac http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif

SoCalDMAX

08-17-2003, 13:29

Dave Lewis,

I'm sorry, I can't find it on their web page either. :confused: They had a 1/4 page ad in the printed version of the TDR. If someone could perhaps scan that and post it, would be nice. I spent a long time last night searching the online TDR and the DPP website, no luck. It does look almost exactly like the Fuel Preporator. I bought and connected my Stanadyne setup to closely approximate what I thought they were trying to accomplish.

HB,

I see you haven't come up with any coherent responses to my technical info. Perhaps they're too long. Short version.

1. Dodge is using a lift pump to feed the fuel filter and fuel system on the Cummins. Their engineers thought the added benefits out-weighed the potential risks of lift pump failure every 60-80K mi. Are YOU going to say they're wrong?

You quoted Racor about Bosch pump specs. Racor builds filters, not Bosch pumps. Ask anyone who knows anything about pumps - they are all designed to push better than pull, and 60" Hg?????? Through soft rubber hoses at the OEM filter??? :rolleyes: THINK about what you are saying.

As FirstDiesel posted so eloquently with his quote from George Morrison
another reason I like John Kennedy's setup is that John's post filter serves as a wonderful dampener for the harmonics that back-feed through the fuel from the injector/pump firings. These vibrations act like an ultra-sonic cleaner for the fuel filter/water separator. CAT experienced this when they changed from a 20 micron to a 7 micron absolute fuel filter to capture the 7 micron particle size. The 7 micron filter did not capture a significant amount due to the backfeed harmonics. Thus CAT had to switch to a 2 micron absolute (beta 200) to achieve a 7 micron beta 200 level cleaning.See, even CAT has to deal with the laws of physics. A larger filter mounted closer to the fuel pulsations acts as a dampener, increasing OEM fuel filter efficiency
John is doing just that with his filter arrangement.. Just a little selective quoting. ;)

You COMPLETELY misunderstood Dmaxallitech's point.
If you take ice water in its natural form, at 32* and put it in a 0 pressure situation, not a vacuum, just 0 pressure. By simply raising the temp of the water .5 degrees, you can make the water 'boil' or vent its 'air' If you add just 1 or 2 psi to THINK. When he says 0 pressure, do you think he is saying atmospheric pressure at sea level? HAVE YOU EVER IN YOUR LIFE SEEN ICE WATER BOIL AT 32*?? I'm assuming that he's not mistaken, so what he meant was that if you remove atmospheric pressure (14.7psi) one could even make water "boil" at 32*. So he is supporting the equations that indicate that diesel fuel can outgas and produce (vapors, fumes, whatever) when enough restriction is placed in the fuel line and suction (vacuum or less than atmospheric pressure) is placed on it. THIS IS THE SOURCE OF THE "AIR" you keep asking about. Returned fuel to the tank, the high injection presures, the FICM, all raise the fuel temp. As fuel tank level drops, suction head increases and fuel tank temp increases, vapor increases in the fuel line and the result is retarded injection timing with resultant power losses and decreased fuel economy. Ask yourself: why did GM install a fuel cooler in the return line? Not because they were on Blue Light special, that's for sure.

And this all started with a "I just love my CAT filter install, Nick is a great guy." I guarantee you, there is not 1 single person on this site who would have disputed that statement. But then to go on the offensive and denigrate what others have chosen... well that always touches off a Ford vs Chevy style debate. Most of my friends drive Fords. I don't try to convert them. I'm even a gentleman and let them start up the hill in front of me. Then when I pass them going uphill with the trailer, I even slow down to wait for them at the top of the hill. It makes for great gloating material around the campfire that evening... :D

Maybe Sdaver is right. Socaldieselnewbie, is that you old buddy? :D

Steve

mdrag

08-17-2003, 13:32

A few observations on the KD Mega installed post-OEM in 04/2003 on my 2001:

1) No hard starts/stalls/stumbling EVER.

2) The truck runs smoother all the time.

3) Multi-week temps of 100 - 107 degrees F in OK during the month of July 2003.

4) Fuel analysis comparing the OEM Racor to the OEM + Mega documented an improvement in filtering efficiency for particles > 2 microns :

OEM 16.24%
OEM + post OEM MEGA 88.42%

5) My fuel samples were taken after I filled up (full 56 gal tank) and drove 8 miles to my shop. Therefore a full tank of diesel and essentially the 'first pass' through the fuel filters.

6) OEM Racor changed recently with 1.4K miles on it. The filter media was 4/5 used. Plenty of air in the OEM Racor when I opened the OEM bleeder...

7) No lift pump installed on my truck.

8) I don't keep track of MPG figures.

9) Don't forget that the Mega can be installed either pre or post OEM. Kennedy provides instructions for both installs.

Great taste!!! Less filling!!!

Hound

08-17-2003, 13:33

Originally posted by mackin:
My electric can open just took a dumper , PMS filters are on B/O .... Typical manufacture can't make promished delivery date ....

Mac http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif Mac,

If ya want the best you'd look at the true facts and find that all the numbers support the fact that electric can openers are junk. If ya want the BEST go get yourself a P-38 can opener and enjoy the reliability that cannot be refuted! That way I can enjoy the super clean fuel provided by the mac pack can filter in a timely manner and without any production delay excuses. tongue.gif :D :D

roegs

08-17-2003, 14:11

I smell a Troll in all this.

jbplock

08-17-2003, 16:40

Originally posted by roegs:
I smell a Troll in all this. DOES HB Really EXIST ??? What is his REAL agenda? Reminds me of a guy who made a lot of trouble here a few years back... Maybe he has been reincarnated as HB :eek: ??

imported_

08-17-2003, 18:02

SoCalDMAX,

I disagree with your statement:

And this all started with a "I just love my CAT filter install, Nick is a great guy." I guarantee you, there is not 1 single person on this site who would have disputed that statement. In fact that is all I said about Nick and that I thought the CAT was the best filter and stated my reasons - w/o any mention whatsoever of any other filters.

However, abear differed and quoted the Society of Automotive Engineers J905 testing showing that some Baldwin filters were better. He also volunteered that if his lift puimp failed he could keep on running w/o any problems.

I replied by quoting the Wear Index test comparing the CAT filter with 4 others which showed it to be the best in it's class.

I then told abear about this test and specified the Balwin filter Number (not the Mega Filter) that lsot in comparison to the CAT.

Since abear volunteered tehstaement that he could run w/o his lift pump w/o problems, I asked abear if running his Mega filter w/o a lift pump would eventually cauase a stall.

From there abear accused me of "throwing stones."
Since then, mainly the Mega filter fans have been lobbing in the cheap personal shots and I have been trying to field them by responding the best that I can.

I was quoting George Morrison about the 60" vacuum and no need for a secondary [ump with an additional filter:

In talking with a Racor engineer last week, our Bosch pump is consertavitely rated 60 inches! Our current OEM filter draws less than 8 inches, so an additional filter is no problem; in fact GM is currently working on a primary to put in between the present filter and the tank. What do you think that is telling us
It can therefore easily handle a both a primary and secondary fuel filter, especially if one or both are synthetic or microglass media. Moreover, if it is 'clean' fuel that the pump is processing, THAT is the key to both pump and injector life. i.e. if the pump has twice the load, if the fuel is ultra-clean, the increased load is much better than processing dirty fuel at half the load..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
If you have a problem with his data then I suggest you direct your questions to him.

However, it seems reasonable to expect that the Racor engineer, the maker of our OEM filter, would be knowlewdgeable of the capacity of the pump in the Duramax.

I do not think it is very wise for you to jump to the conclusion that since Dodge has a lift pump, the Duramax must have one too - as though GM had somehow forgotten to put one on - and we should remedy this to be like Dodge.

My CAT filtered DMAX runs just fine as well as many Mega filtered DMAX's w/o the lift pump. I understand the concept that the vacuum releases gasses and that pressure helps keep them entrained.

It would be a wonderful thing if we knew for a fact that the lift pump is actually doing this.

But I still haven't heard from anyone who is willing to guaranrtee that it is not just jamming the air/gas back through the filter in sub-visible 5 micron level that could be even worse for the pump and injectors.

Can you do more than speculate wethrer the lift pump is truly stabilizing the gas in the fuel or is it just jamming it through?

Finally I have alreadsy said that since the level of iltration of the CAT and the MEGA are well within the specs derined by Goerge, any further data showoing the CAT to be superior is "merely acedemic" - superfluous.

So please Mega folks, don't feel so threatened and wounded.

Hey how about those Angels today. Killed the Tigers. I was headed for terh berach when my buddy came up with some tickets to the game. My boy got a bobble head Rally Monkey.

Yes Mega fans I am real, flesh and blood. Just keep those cheap shots comiong and I will keep firing on back.

Lonewolf867

08-17-2003, 18:21

DOES IT MATTER?? DOES IT REALLY REALLY MATTER???

Good GOD! I have just spent 15 minutes reading one of the biggest pi**ING matches I have ever seen...

GEESH!!
Filter the fuel. By a filter that YOU are comfortable with. OR NOT!
Life as we know will go on..or will it?

JK,dmaxtech..and alot of others (I am still new here so I can't call you all by name) are much more knowledgeable than I ever hope to be on a diesel engine. I will take advice and suggestions from them anytime.

But Why oh why is this turned into such a whinning and graoning match about a frickin fuel filter??

OK..I feel better now. Just wish I knew which filter to get.. ;) ;)

OH Yeah I want to preorder the PMS Rage filter!! :D

Mike

imported_

08-17-2003, 18:56

IMHO the CAT filter installed pre-OEM filter using Nick's bracket is the best solution.

FirstDiesel

08-17-2003, 19:05

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

MAV

08-17-2003, 19:07

HB,
Really....tell me, what makes you say that?
:confused:

Just kidding.....we know. Just having some fun. ;)

imported_

08-17-2003, 19:36

Sorry, couldn't resist :eek:

dmaxstu

08-17-2003, 19:53

Yes Mega fans I am real, flesh and blood.

Yes but you did not submit a complete profile and I've always been warned: Know your teachers, so when we have these self appointed experts my first inclination is to check the profile and find out who is talking to me.
It is one of the reasons I have been avoiding this board no one is required to submit their profile anymore. When I first started here 90% of the folks submitted full profiles and I enjoyed reading them as much as the posts that were submitted. I cannot understand what you non profile folks are ashamed of. If you can afford a $40,000 truck you must have something on the ball, I want to know what it is. Stu

SoCalDMAX

08-17-2003, 20:00

This is getting comical.

QUOTE]In fact that is all I said about Nick and that I thought the CAT was the best filter and stated my reasons - w/o any mention whatsoever of any other filters. [/QUOTE]

Please re-read your 1st post in this thread.

It's the peace of mind that makes this set-up the best IMHO. No other hardware like lift pumps and check valves and oil presure switches to worry about wearing out/failing. What if someone said, "No huge yellow fuel filter under vacuum hanging down way below the filler neck to create vapor and pose a potential risk of damage from debris. I sure wouldn't want to get stranded because of a hole in my fuel filter. And it doesn't even have a fuel heater, water trap or water sensor. Imagine getting stuck in the middle of nowhere freezing because you've got 10lbs of wax in a big yellow cannister!"

I didn't mention any names, so I guess I didn't say anything negative about a particular filter. :rolleyes: Just stay out of the snow belt.

The change interval for big CAT 0749 filter should be equal, if not longer, than the OEM and it's in an easy-to-service location.

According to all the literature on these CAT high efficiency filters they're the industry standard -the best. Of course you may have to pay a couple 2 or 3 more bucks. The change interval - is that based on the sheer size of the cannister? Did you open one up yet and measure the surface area of the media? If it is the industry standard, the best, why doesn't Ford, Dodge or Chevy use it as the OEM filter? By inference, GM must have done a ton of testing to select the proper fuel filter. they have far more resources than any of us. So Racor should be able to claim "industry standard - the best."
Now I'm wondering why the Cat filter wasn't chosen as the OEM.

I asked you to think about 60" of vacuum. Think of drawing that much vacuum on a thin rubber hose. Are you picturing a collapsed rubber hose while you're WOT pulling a load uphill? I can't prove it. I'm just trying to foresee and prevent possible issues.

I do not think it is very wise for you to jump to the conclusion that since Dodge has a lift pump, the Duramax must have one too - as though GM had somehow forgotten to put one on - and we should remedy this to be like Dodge. Why is it unwise to look at a competing co. who copied and is now using the same fuel injection system we are? Maybe they chose the HPCR because of the benefits they saw from Dmax using it. They modified it slightly. WHY????? Just to be different? Just to make me buy one? Just because Walmart sells them?

No.

There must be some overriding technical reason that some accountant HAD to agree to, that made it financially necessary to add it. In the absence of a better explanation from anyone, that is what I choose to believe. Repeat after me: They aren't like US. They don't spend money on stuff because they like it or it's cool. Only because it will save them money in the long run or it's absolutely necessary.

You still haven't answered: WHY IS DODGE USING A LIFT PUMP? 60 Minutes proved that the auto mfrs (excluding Mercedes Benz) were not willing to spend $2 to strengthen the seat brackets on autos, thus guaranteeing that in a hard rear end collision the occupants would be ejected through the rear window and killed, or cooked in the rear seat. This was shown grahically in movies filmed of the crash testing performed on the Pinto and other cars. They were willing to let innocent people get killed for a lousy $4/car.

So why spend the moola on a worthless pump? Same greedy corp. officers in charge. Perhaps they figured out or were told it would be worth it. I'd also like to know what factory filter they use. If it's lacking what will the TDR members come up with?

I think that sometimes co.s/people learn over time or from the mistakes of others. The vehicles we drive now are vastly superior to the Model A. It's not that our forbears were stupid, it's an evolutionary process. Perhaps Dodge has been tracking the failed returned injectors with Bosch or Bosch tipped them off to a potential problem, or GM ignored Bosch's recommendations or Racor misled GM into thinking that the OEM filter would be sufficient.

Look at the Exploder/Firestone fiasco. Poor handling SUV that is tippy, so the answer: recommended 25psi tire pressure so it will skid rather than roll. Then they overheat and blow because it's a heavy SUV. Look at Firestone and Ford point fingers, lie, produce memos and spend millions on attorneys to avoid taking blame for a long series of incredibly stupid decisions. Again, people died for greed.

Since I'm questioning engineering savvy, let's discuss the OEM mounting location. Hmmm. Mounted up high on the engine. Great for bleeding, but it vibrates with the engine, gets nice and hot and isn't easy to get to for filter changes. I would have mounted it back somewhere by the tank and just put a bleeder up high. Easy to change, no vibration, stays cool.

Why did they remove the underhood light. It was REALLY useful. Why not install LED brake lights from the factory. It shaves .4 sec from the illumination delay and has been proven to help reduce rear end collisions. Greedy beancounters.

This is the best part.

My CAT filtered DMAX runs just fine as well as many Mega filtered DMAX's w/o the lift pump. Gentlemen, this is as close to a retraction as we may ever get. I'm not gonna say he contradicted himself. Let's be magnanimous and say he actually read the posts and changed his mind. :D

HB, please don't misunderstand and think I dislike you or anything. Quite the contrary. You did your research and bought a Dmax. You did some more research and selected an excellent fuel filter. In actuality ALL of us here think more alike than different.

Everyone have a good evening, I gotta go sear some dead cow. :D

Regards, Steve

dmaxalliTech

08-17-2003, 20:46

Ok, I didnt relize my last post made it on and I wasnt done with it. Sorry about the confusion.

What I was saying is that if you were to put the fluid in just a sligh amount of pressure, be it just 1 or 2 psi, it would eliminate the outgassing. If the system is under a vacuum as the fuel systems in our truck are, imagine how little 'heat' would be required to have the outgassing. I feel that a lift pump on a stock system is a good idea just to overide the vacuum which seems inadaquate but judging by the number of trucks out there its working ok overall. I agree that no pump out there can pull as good as it can push, its just not a good setup regardless of how well it works. I think ( and this is me thinking, not a rocket scientist) that the MEGA seems to have the abiity to capture all the outgassing is from two things, first, its shear size. Second, the fact that all of them that I know of are mounted post oem. Since all this garble on air in fuel has surfaced, I make it a habbit to pump the primer a few times on stock systems and crack the bleeder. Some I get air from, others I dont. I have not seen all of the reports on clean fuel etc and I dont know who tested the best and who came in third. All I know is that its the common consensus that we all feel dirty fuel is causing problems, if we filter it, its cleaner. IIRC the oem filter is good to the 5-7 micron range and most of us are installing X or Y brand filters that are good to 2 micron... Sounds like we are getting to the same destination with a different path.

As far as HB goes. I think he has some good points in his posts. I think Nick has a good setup going with his CAT setup, kudos to him for taking the time to come up with a bracket etc and install it for fellow members. Believe me, I can speak of it first hand, its a good feeling to know that somebody drove X hours to come to you to have you do work on there truck because they trust you. The only thing I wish we could do different in here is just post your thoughts and comments, but dont bash or downgrade a product. Where is that gonna get us? If you dont like something fine, its your choice. But make sure we know the reasons why you like the choice you have made, and I feel HB has done that. Guys, this forum is a place to learn and gain information. If I wanted to stand in the middle of a ****ing match, I would aim into the wind. I think we can all get along now cant we? HB ? :D :D

Mac.. I just located a supplier for your filter media. Its recycled Huggies!! I will ship weekly to you, please take caution when opening packages. I also have your filter housing, they cost about $20.00 when new and filled with a powered substance only known by its code name "formula" :D

imported_

08-17-2003, 20:57

SoCalDMAX,

Thank you for taking the time to go back and re-read my original post and confirm to all that, in fact, I did not name any specific brand of filter. I stated legitimate reasons for preferring the CAT pre-OEM, as you quoted:

It's the peace of mind that makes this set-up the best IMHO. No other hardware like lift pumps and check valves and oil pressure switches to worry about wearing out/failing. If I may, I would also like to add that the pre-OEM position probably is less likely to cause warranty voidance.

If I cannot express these reasons for satisfaction with a Diesel product add=on partt here on TheDieselPage.Com, then where can I?

I should not have to undergo being swwarmed by fifty Mega filter zealots for stating my opinion.

BTW you mentioned some legitimate concerns that potential buyers may have about the CAT that I would like to address:

Shielding: The 1/2 steel shield for the CAT is virtually bullet proof. It's location tucked way up is way above other components hanging lower. You should see this thing!

Heat: As far as freezing, I'll have to rely on the additives when I go to the mountains.

In your original post I understood your logic for believing that Dodge had a good reason to install a lift pump because, otherwise, Dodge wouldn

imported_

08-17-2003, 21:08

Dmax/alliITech,

Thank you for your kind words. Your opinion about lift pumps carries a lot of weight in my book.

I guess if I eventually decide to get one from JK I'll have to use an alias :cool:

HA!

ChevysRus

08-17-2003, 22:48

All righty!!!!!

Can we put this one on hold for now and pick it up when someone has 15K on the Big CAT and I don't know how about 35K on the Mega! or whatever the expected life is. Then when they are cut open someone can post pictures and see what's going on. Just before pulling them off it might be helpful to send in a fuel sample and let's see how efficient they are when they are close to the end of their useful life. We know they both work well when fresh and new, but how do they do when they are tired?

I would like to find out what is the optimum time to change them before they start to break down and let more bad stuff through. John K has a good point about changing at 80% of useful like. If we let them build up to just before they clog we are putting unnecessary stain on the pumps (OEM and dare I say Lift Pumps) as well.

Cat recomendation of 250 hours is based on their bigger engines and probably worse fuel conditions than we have/face.

So we are blazing new trails here and all info is valuable.

I would just comment on.......no not gonna do it, let it go.....easy boy, down boy, whoa....

OH, heck with it....CAT probably would not license the use of their filters to GM, Dodge, Ford or anyone other than CAT. I am going to paint mine black so the dealer won't see it and the CAT lawyers don't write me a letter telling me to remove it LOL :D smile.gif ;)

afp

08-17-2003, 22:54

HB,

Just my analysis and a suggestion for your consideration.

The issue here most folks have with you is not what you are saying but how you are saying it. Your posts sometimes come across condescending and arrogant. I am sure you do not mean your posts to be this way, but it is one of the limitations with Internet forums. Most posts are autored with the best of intentions but read in the worst possiblr light. Regardless of your intent, if folks perceive your posts as arrogant and condescending, they will respond in kind and the thread will deteriorate.

I try to critically read my own words as I craft my posts and look for any hint of negative emotion. I then either remove it or tone it down. This seems to work most of the time, and I have often engaged folks in fierce debates about controversial topics and the thread remain polite. Of course, no method is 100% sure to prevent a ****ing match. However, when I can debate Intelligent Design with Theistic Evolutionists and Evolutionists and the participants actually enjoy the debate without resorting to negative emotion, I think I'm on the sonething.

Blaine

Tsckey

08-18-2003, 00:00

SoCal,

Not to pick a fight with someone whose wit I have always admired, but I think your last response to HB may rely more heavily on rhetorical devices than logic. You quote HB's statement that in his humble opinion the CAT filter is best. But his statement is not a naked declaration. He gives his reasons for thinking as he does. He does not want to deal with lift pumps, switches and other devices. Where is the sin here? He states the basis for his opinion clearly enough. He appears uncomfortable with the added complications and in the calculus of acceptable risks he is willing to take the complexity introduced with the more elaborate filtration alternatives employed by others renders them, in his estimation, an inferior choice. Is that unreasonable?

You then launch into a somewhat defensive riff along the lines of "oh, yeah, well what if I made deragatory statements about some yellow filter but didn't name it ... blah, blah, blah." So what? If you what to announce your criteria, identify the evidence supporting your contentions and declare your opinion as to the best filter no one is harmed, no one is insulted. But you don't do that. Instead there is a sneering, in-your-face quality to your post that doesn't do you credit. You even attack HB's belief about the longevity of the filter cartridge. We don't know how long these things are going to last. But, for anyone willing to listen Dura-Max3 has said over and over that in his real-world experience these very filters last many thousands of miles in OTR trucks, which pump considerably more fuel through them than out little engines will. HB's estimate of the probable life of the filter is objectively reasonable.

You suggest the filter is highly vulnerable to damage from foreign objects. That is possible. Nick has had his filter for several thousand miles and has driven on gravel roads during that time with no visible marks on the filter from debris striking it. My filter shows no marks either, but out of an abundance of caution I'm going to fashion a removeable rubber shield that I can easily zip tie to the fender bracket behind the filter. This low tech solution is within my meager skills. Why take shots as the CAT anyway? Question their test results if you want to, but simply to challenge them because CAT published them is, again a rhetorical device that insinuates the existence of contrary evidence without actually supplying any. Go ahead and ignore the CAT-financed study if you want to, but the objective results posted here by users suggest the CAT filter is an excellent filter, which tends to corroborate their (perhaps biased) study.

For the life of me I don't know why this thread has generated so much unnecessary heat. It has not revealed us at our best. I admire JK and honor his efforts to build and supply the best quality products he can with the highest level of service. His Mega filter may or may not be superior to the CAT (he doesn't make the filter element anyway; Baldwin does), but for whatever reason, and this, too may ultimately be beneficial, it seems more likely than other filters to expose the offgassing to which diesel fuel is prone. I chose not to use it for that reason. I'm not as handy as many on this site and had a concern that if I had some of the problems others were experiencing these might be beyond my time and ability to solve. My timidity in this regard should not be taken by anyone as a criticism of JK.

I also like and admire Nick D'Amico very much. He is a young guy with an inspiring ability to put his thoughts into action. He got an idea, borrowed TraceF's filter bracket design and put it into action. He shares his considerable talents with those fortunate few lucky to live close enough to benefit from his generosity. He's been helping out local Dmax owners for a long time with a wide range of applications.

HB is just happy with his filter. For his needs and circumstances it is the best application. Give the guy a break.

TC

k1xv

08-18-2003, 05:25

Wading through this topic, trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, I have learned a bit about fuel filtering esoterica.

I purchased one of Nick's CAT filtering kits. It just arrived and I have not installed it yet. From my e-mail correspondence with him, he is a real gentleman.

I have no idea which filtering system is best, nor do I have any idea if the problems claimed to exist with each system are merely theoretical, or actually exist in a practical Duramax application.

My decision to purchase the CAT system and install it pre-OEM was based on the following considerations:

FIRST, The OEM filter installation on the 2003 Dmax results in a hard to change filter with questionable filtration efficiency. I figured that if I installed a 2 micron CAT filter BEFORE the stock filter, then the fuel coming out of the CAT filter would be so clean that the stock filter would not get dirty and would not have to be changed as often. On the ohter hand, if water got through the CAT filter, I could still drain it at the stock filter. On the other hand, if I inserted a secondary fuel filter, regardless of manufacturer or supplier, AFTER the stock filter, the stock filter would continue to get just as contaminated as if I had no secondary filter at all, and I would still have the bear of a job of changing it.

SECOND, the if the CAT filter were installed BEFORE the stock filter, and in an easy to service location, servicing would be much simpler.

THIRD, CAT filters are widely available.

I gave some thought to the fact that pumps work better at pushing fluid than pulling fluid, but I assumed that in the real world application of the Duramax, this was only a theoretical problem unless the CAT filter was getting plugged, in which case it was probably time to change the filter!!

As for the fuel going below the pour point in the unheated CAT filter and plugging up solid, I always assumed that here in Vermont all of the fuel was winterized and the pour point of the fuel was below the ambient temperatures that would be experienced. If the pour point was so high that it would plug up the CAT filter, wouldn't it also plug up the fuel cooler in the DMax fuel delivery line? I don't know.

I also agree that when gas is dissolved in a liquid, it more readily comes out the lower the absolute pressure that the liquid is subject to. But here I am confused. If air is dissolved in the fuel, then is it better to have that gas remain dissolved in the fuel and going to the injectors, or is it better to get it separated out? If the latter, then do we need yet another component, some kind of gas venting device? (OY!)

As someone who went to engineering school back in the dark ages, my vague memories of this topic causes me to believe that lowering pressure will cause more of a liquid to go to a gaseous state at any given temperature, but the gas is not "air", it is fuel vapor.

Now give me 5 minutes to put on my asbestos flame suit.

hoot

08-18-2003, 06:10

Not sure if this was asked or mentioned...

Who manufactures the CAT filter?

imported_

08-18-2003, 08:26

afp,

Isn't his akin to the kettle calling the pot black?

Please listen to the tone of your own words here.

HB,

Just my analysis and a suggestion for your consideration.

The issue here most folks have with you is not what you are saying but how you are saying it. Your posts sometimes come across condescending and arrogant.I did everything I could to minimize the heat; I refused to respond in-kind to a barrage of personal attacks while I continually urged others to stick to the facts.

Under the circumstances I don't know how much more reserved and polite I could have been.

Congratulations on the success of your theistic debates.

imported_

08-18-2003, 08:37

Hoot,

Here's the product page for the CAT 1R 0749. Hope this can answer some of your questions re; Filter construction/features.

CAT 1R 0749 Fuel Filter Product Page (http://www.caterpillar.com/products/shared/parts_n_service/04_filters/fluid_filters/_filters/high_eff_fuel_filters.html)

hoot

08-18-2003, 10:54

Originally posted by HB:
Hoot,

Here's the product page for the CAT 1R 0749. Hope this can answer some of your questions re; Filter construction/features.

CAT 1R 0749 Fuel Filter Product Page (http://www.caterpillar.com/products/shared/parts_n_service/04_filters/fluid_filters/_filters/high_eff_fuel_filters.html)
Cat Filters are manufactured to meet the industry's most demanding engineering specs for filters - those specified by Caterpillar. Thanks HB.... Judging by this statement it appears CAT is not in the filter manufacturing business as I thought.

George Morrison.... do you know?

Thanks everybody.

SoCalDMAX

08-18-2003, 11:44

Tsckey,

I apologize. After covering the same ground over and over, the sarcastic side of me came out, and it clouded the message. I try to avoid it, but after repeating myself 4 or 5 times, I figured the message wasn't being received anyways.

I really don't think that the CAT filter is all that susceptible to road debris - that para. was meant to sarcastically point out that one doesn't need to mention the name of a specific brand to smear it by inference, which is what I interpreted in his first post. He later elaborated and removed all doubt about his feelings about a competing product.

I never said the CAT filter was anything but excellent. Through the course of this thread, we've seen HB change his tune from "the CAT filter is the best" to "the CAT and Mega filters tested well within the range Goerge specified, so the differences are esoteric." I didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea about the Mega filter by inference. I also wanted to point out the flaw in assuming that all injector damage is from particulates and discounting the efects of cavitation. I've taken info from a number of sources, not just CAT sales material, to come up with my conclusions. I linked to the other sources or mentioned what they were, but I can't make a horse drink.

I'm not selling anything, never will. If someone near me wants some help installing a filter, I'll help, regardless of brand name. The only thing I'm interested in is controlling the world. ;) Er.. I mean making sure mis-info or a one sided view isn't posted.

My comments about the filter gelling due to a lack of heater element may be a real concern for those in the snow belt. The fuel may not have enough treatment in it and that much fuel in a big filter may gel up on you. GM put a heater element in the small OEM filter and it's in a nice warm engine compartment... once again, must have been a reason for it.

I just read Hoot's question about who makes the CAT filter. He has a good point. Just because it has the name on the side and the mfr makes a great engine doesn't mean that a batch of bad filters may not come out of the factory that's actually making them.

One can play "what if" all day long, it really is no use, so I'd just like to finish with this thought: based on sampling results and increased fuel mileage reported by a number of members using a variety of brands, I think you can't really go wrong with any of them.

Regards, Steve

hoot

08-18-2003, 11:51

I'm just thinking maybe the same manufacturer makes both the CAT and the MEGA.... just built to different specs.

Someone here has to know. There really are only a few filter manufacturers in this specific business.

How's this for getting some attention....

I think Racor makes CAT's filters....... :eek:

Tsckey

08-18-2003, 11:56

SoCal,

My faith is restored! Sorry to be such a Net Nanny. Next time I get down in your area let me buy you a drink. From some of the events you relate on the domestic front, sounds like you could use it.

TC

imported_

08-18-2003, 12:05

SoCalDMAX,

Can you categorically state as a matter of proven fact, (and not theory), that lift pumps are absolutely preventing outgassing in the DMAX?

Can you categorically state as amatter of proven fact, (and not theory), that lift pumps are not just force feeding air/gas that would otherwise remain trapped in post-OEM filters through the filters at sub-visible bubble levels?

As I've repeated a couple times, I understand your theories, but, I cannot afford the price of the experimentation if your theories are wrong.

Why does it irk you that I prefer to await the facts rather than subjecting my truck to unnecessary experimentation.

Will you foot my repair bills if your are wrong?

Until you can provide facts, please abstain from your infammatory derogatory personal innuendo because I will not go along with your theories.

SoCalDMAX

08-18-2003, 12:06

K1xv,

Just a few quick points.

1. I really do believe that some have found defective factory fuel filters. Having any brand of filter pre-oem is not going to catch that debris from a disintegrating OEM before it hits the pump and injectors.

2. You're right about pressure and outgassing and vapor. There is some air entrained in the fuel which outgasses when pressure drops, and there is also vapor which does the same. I've been told by a number of sources that it's better to have all of that in solution rather than the gaseous state - that's where the cavitation comes in. The fuel still behaves in a hydraulic manner, but once released, the air/vapors are compressible and ruin the hydraulic properties of the fuel that the system relies on for proper operation. The whole point of the lift pump is to pressurize the system as close to the fuel pickup as possible and eliminate as much air/vapor as possible.

3. The fuel cooler is in the return line, not in the supply line. The fuel in the return line has been heated by the FICM and high injection pressures and GM felt it necessary to incur some cost to bring the temp down on the returned fuel. I envisioned a worse case scenario: someone from a moderate climate drives into the snow belt carrying 100gal of fuel purchased from home. He hits a cold snap and in the morning, the unheated fuel in a filter mounted down low and away from engine heat may gel. Once again, GM spent the money to put a heater in the OEM filter, even tho it's mounted in the engine compartment.

Regards, Steve

imported_

08-18-2003, 12:23

SoCalDMAX,

You said about me:

Through the course of this thread, we've seen HB change his tune from "the CAT filter is the best" to "the CAT and Mega filters tested well within the range Goerge specified, so the differences are esoteric." Dude, go back to Psych 101. It's called trying to get along.

We don't need to grind folks noses into the technically superior filtration of the CAT when, in practice, the difference is irrelevant.

Got it sport?

SoCalDMAX

08-18-2003, 12:25

HB,

No, I cannot prove that lift pumps remove vapor/air in the Dmax specifically. I have seen testimonial that they do so in other fuel systems. The other fuel systems are so close in construction and appearance as to be nearly indistinguishable. We are discussing laws of physics. There is nothing about a Dmax that defies any of the laws of physics, despite what Mackin thinks of his truck. ;)

I don't know what innuendo you're referring to. I stated what I perceived you've posted and what I've meant to say clearly, but certainly not concisely. For that, I apologize again.

Your first post appeared to cast aspersions on another brand. Whether you meant to or not, many people interpreted it that way. That's all that matters, what people read into it.

Since then you've admitted that a lift pump is not necessary to make a Mega filter work, you've also admitted the difference in performance between the CAT and Mega is esoteric. I agree 100% with both of those statements. But that certainly is not what I interpreted from your first post in this thread.

I am a big proponent of lift pumps. They are not necessary to make a Mega filter work. I believe the vast majority of the lift pumps installed on Dmaxes are used in conjuction with other brands of filters, not Mega filters. Mine is part of a Stanadyne system.

You really appeared to have an axe to grind with the Mega. You specifically mentioned it later, made direct comparisons to it. You didn't say "any filter" or bring up Racor or Stanadyne results. I just don't like to see any product get scrutinized unfairly.

If someone had jumped on here and IMHO, talked unfairly about the CAT filter, my posts would look basically the same, just insert CAT instead of Mega. That's all this was ever about, for me.

Regards, Steve

k1xv

08-18-2003, 12:25

SoCalDMAX

Thanks for straightening out my confusion!! And here I always thought the fuel cooler was in the supply line, and that you would want heated fuel to be returning to the tank, which would act like a big heat sink. Guess I shouldn't jump to conclusions.

BTW, my late father had one of the original Olds 350 Diesels, and I remember him having to building a charcoal fire under his fuel tank on some cold winter days because his fuel had gelled.

Guess we have come a long way.

hoot

08-18-2003, 12:32

I personally see nothing wrong with going with a lift pump. I believe GM attempted to design the system cheaper and more reliable by not using the pump like many, many diesel contraptions are designed. Looks like they may have caused more problems than they eliminated.

I do agree that removing vacuum by using a pump will keep air from outgassing. As a matter of fact it's a physics fact. You will see it every time you open a beer. Pressure keeps the gas in solution until released. Vacuum will draw out gasses.

I'm still not convinced the stock system really need a pump though. If GM went with a better filter setup than they probably would add the pump.... that's probably what Dodge did.

imported_

08-18-2003, 12:48

I stated many Mega filters in post-OEM mode don't need a lift pump to work - but guess what - many do! So do the CATS in post-OEM mode. So what?

I quote my first post:
I know this is unscientific but after Nick installed the big CAT filter the acceleration/power feels noticeably smoother on the highly filtered fuel.

Haven't had even the slightest hint of a problem since install about 900 miles ago.

Like I said, dealing with Nick has been a 1st class experience from a-to-z.

It's the peace of mind that makes this set-up the best IMHO. No other hardware like lift pumps and check valves and oil presure switches to worry about wearing out/failing.

The change interval for big CAT 0749 filter should be equal, if not longer, than the OEM and it's in an easy-to-service location.

According to all the literature on these CAT high efficiency filters they're the industry standard -the best. Of course you may have to pay a couple 2 or 3 more bucks.

Plus, it's pre-OEM so no warranty worries.
If we can't freely state why we like a product and/or services then what is this web Page for - Only for MEGA/JK zealot propaganda and for posting your theories?

All others are entitled to their opinions about products and services as well.

There are other products and vendors out there besides just JK and his stuff. If they do a good job, fill a niche like the CAT, then don't you think they deserve recognition?

Your own and others' crude attempts at censorship are distasteful.

imported_

08-18-2003, 13:01

SoCalDMAX,

Finally, you falsely stated that I unfairly criticized the MEGA filter.

Show me one statement in which I unfairly criticized the MEGA filter.

Otherwise, flame out troll.

hoot

08-18-2003, 13:24

Wow.... this guy makes me look like a saint.

PTDIVER

08-18-2003, 13:40

SoCalDmax If the Fuel Preporator is as good as reported why did you go with seperate pump and filter?? Maby I am slow but many of these posts cause moer confusion than answer questions. P.S. any GOOD REPAIR/MOD. locations in San Diego area??

Mark Heiken

08-18-2003, 13:44

Hoot said "Wow.... this guy makes me look like a saint."

And that ain't easy!

56Nomad

08-18-2003, 13:49

Show me one statement in which I unfairly criticized the MEGA filter. "MEGA/JK zealot propaganda" :confused:

imported_

08-18-2003, 13:50

Hoot,

This is just a question and is not meant to be interpreted or to infer, accuse or criticize anything.

(Sorry I need to write these disclaimers for some of the hyper sensitive folks in here who seem bent on "divining" criticism out of my every word).

JUST A PLAIN VANILLA QUESTION:

If the factory pump is designed for some resistance to draw fuel through the fuel supply and filering system, wouldn't a lift pump reduce fuel line resistance below expected spec and cause the factory pump to operate at a higher rate?

Could this in-turn, add more fuel pressure to the injection system and generally cause things to spin/burn out faster?

Just wondering if that would be a concern.

SoCalDMAX

08-18-2003, 13:59

Alrighty. You asked, here it is.

I guess if you can keep on going w/o a lift pump until a big slug of air/gas builds up in your Mega filter and stalls you out. Here you mentioned the Mega filter specifically by name. If you'd said ".. in your post-oem mounted filter, regardless of brand..." then you wouldn't have raised the ire of many satisfied customers. Your hackles raised pretty good when I (sarcastically) talked smack about a certain yellow filter. See how it works? I don't even own a Mega filter, and NEVER felt the need to say anything negative about Nick's kit, ever. Again, if someone had badmouthed Nick's kit, you and I together would be all over that person. I'm not asking someone not to post or asking to delete their messages, just asking for clarification, posting a differing view or explaining what I've perceived from a post. Your opinion is EVERY bit as important to me as my own. Mine was derived from reading results from other people and ad info from different companies, I've done no research of my own. So I'm just as open to any source of info YOU provide as I find on my own. If someone could have provided an answer one way or the other as to why Dodge is using a lift pump, then I'd know for sure. Rather than assuming normal corp. procedure in which an engineer has to prove a cost savings to an accountant in order to include it.

Isn't the air/gas problem the chief reason that the lift pump is required with the Mega FilterOnce again, you got a lot of response from this one. Unless you took a poll, you cannot presume to know what motivated people to install a lift pump. I first raised the issue of air/vapor in our fuel systems over a YEAR ago on this forum, long before the fuel filtration issue came up and a ton of research and testing was performed by our members. Perhaps they added these lift pumps based on that and other info they found on their own.

And guess what? If you can give me reliable data, not educated guesses, that these will enhance the service life of my truck I will place my order immediately.I posted the reference before, I don't know what else you want. Here:

[quote]" The most destructive fluid contaminant is air", states Milwaukee School of Engineering Handbook on Hydraulics. "it causes severe cavitation and can destroy a pump in a matter of minutes." Caterpillar

SoCalDMAX

08-18-2003, 14:08

PTDIVER,

The honest truth is I believe them, but I'm too cheap to spend $1,000 on that level of solution. This is just my inexpensive way of trying to improve things to a decent level.

I've used Auto Diesel on University Ave. with great results. I've had a really difficult time finding diesel shops in SD.

HB,

To answer your question about the fuel pump possibly going too high in pressure, the fuel pressure is controlled electronically by the ECM based on engine need and feedback from the fuel pressure sender. So even if the pump found it easier to provide a certain pressure, the ECM would merely reduce the signal to keep it in spec.

Regards, Steve

imported_

08-18-2003, 14:24

SoCalDMAX,

You quoted my staement to abear that referred to his MEGA filter:

I guess if you can keep on going w/o a lift pump until a big slug of air/gas builds up in your Mega filter and stalls you out.abear replied to this statement admitting that he had to prime/bleed his MEGA filter every tankfull. In other words, my statement was confirmed to be true/not unfair.

Your next quote is a legitimate question that I asked, not a statement at all. How can you misconstue a question to be an unbfair accusation?

Isn't the air/gas problem the chief reason that the lift pump is required with the Mega Filter Upon getting a response to my legitimate I have freely acknowledged that, in addition to many installing lift pumps to remedy MEGFA filter stalling/no starts, others also install the lift pump for other purposes.

I have never disagreed with you about your theories. As far as I can see they are probably correct. But "probably" isn't good enough., I need hard evidence - The kind of facts that George Morrsion brings to the table.

SoCalDMAX,

You have to admit that was some pretty weak stuff upon which you made an accusation that I was making unfair statements about the MEGA filter.

Don't you think you owe me an apology?

SNIF! SNIF!

ChevysRus

08-18-2003, 14:31

Hoot and et al, I believe in an earlier post George Morrison stated that CAT went out and built a filter factory so they could get the exact specs. they wanted and the factory is automated with the filters being assembled by Robotics to avoid human error or rather lack of consistancy in assembly.

Now please let's not go into the advantages and merits of humans vs. robots as regards quality control LOL :D

I don't have the exact info on this, just what George said (I think he said it)and by all that is right with the world, if George said it, then it's good enough for me. I do respect that dude!

I still say the really important issue here is since we are using filters designed for other engines/applications and adapting them to work on our DMAX engines, how long before we have to change them?

Only way to tell is to rack up the mileage and test'em at various mileage increments and see how they are doing. So let's push back from the keyboards and take a break with a nice 200-300 mile ride over hill and dale. First one to 15K on a CAT, let's test it! We can take up a contribution to help pay for the test, same for the Mother Mega at whatever mileage is thought to be reasonable given the size of that puppie.

Then we will all know for sure, as best we can, what is up with all the filters and also any other brands being used. I would really like to know the optimum mileage for a filter change before it starts to restrict making the pump(s) work harder. We are the ones doing the Beta testing as all other research and info is based on different applications for these filters.

Have a real nice day and let's move on to real world testing of these fine filter products we all now know and love so well.

sdaver

08-18-2003, 14:31

MAYBEE THE 40 CALIBER VARIETY :D

hoot

08-18-2003, 14:34

Originally posted by HB:
Hoot,

This is just a question and is not meant to be interpreted or to infer, accuse or criticize anything.

(Sorry I need to write these disclaimers for some of the hyper sensitive folks in here who seem bent on "divining" criticism out of my every word).

JUST A PLAIN VANILLA QUESTION:

If the factory pump is designed for some resistance to draw fuel through the fuel supply and filering system, wouldn't a lift pump reduce fuel line resistance below expected spec and cause the factory pump to operate at a higher rate?

Could this in-turn, add more fuel pressure to the injection system and generally cause things to spin/burn out faster?

Just wondering if that would be a concern. Who said the factory pump was designed specifically for suction? Supposed Bosch says from vacuum to pressure she'll do just fine? It is an internally regulated system in which I'm sure has a safe range of vacuum/pressure capability. The integral gear rotor lift pump has it's own flow restriction inherently designed into it. You can only push so much fuel between those gears. The rest is controlled by the computer and a valve. As long as you don't go hog wild, I'm willing to bet the pump is designed to handle both types of feed.

BTW: Rail pressure is controlled by regulating fuel feed pressure, not controlling the fuel after it has been pressurized... with the exception I believe of the pressure relief valve. It was the pressure relief valve that was in question when using "fuel pressure" type boxes. Those older generation boxes were constantly opening the relief valve by lying to the computer to increase rail pressure. The relief valve was not designed to be used continuosly.

[ 08-18-2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: hoot ]

hoot

08-18-2003, 14:49

ChevysRus,

What George says goes in my book but I don't think CAT makes fuel filters. I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

SoCalDMAX

08-18-2003, 15:24

Originally posted by hoot:
Wow.... this guy makes me look like a saint. Hoot, on what basis do you make this statement? Is this just your opinion, or do you have any documentation to back up this theory of yours??
:eek: tongue.gif

Just having some fun.

HB, I perceived that post, and still do, as criticizing the Mega filter.

Also I'm surprised. Hoot goes and makes an unfair statement like that about you, and you want an apology from ME? I'm trying to stick up for you here!

Hey, what say we quit kicking this dead horse and go over to the "Oh No, 457hp to 1hp" thread and pick on JK and Sdaver for abusing horses in person! ;) They've even got photographic evidence. It's kinda fun over there, as well!

Regards, Steve

roegs

08-18-2003, 16:01

Here are a couple of quotes from George from an earlier Fuel Test Results thread. It implies that CAT does make their own filters...

"Fuel filters are constructed by human beings (except for the CAT fuel/oil filters which are totally robotically manufactured and incredibly flawless)"

"If only we could get CAT to expand its filter line we would have that filtration level.. But, CAT recognized the lack of quality fuel filtration and had to go out and build a factory to make filters capable of achieving the level of quality/filtration needed for maximum fuel system life."

ChevysRus

08-18-2003, 16:56

ROEGS,

Thanks for finding that, I thought it was in there, but I couldn't stand the pain of reading all this again to find it. You are a patient man!

thanks again

56Nomad

08-18-2003, 17:56

I was looking for the location of the CAT filter plant and came across some interesting sites
about CAT filters, even though they're in-house sites:

http://www.cat.com/services/shared/parts_n_service/04_filters/fluid_filters/_filters/fuel_n_oil_filters.html
http://www.cat.com/services/shared/parts_n_service/04_filters/fluid_filters/_filters/high_eff_fuel_filters.html
http://www.caterpillar.com/products/shared/parts_n_service/03_engine_parts/03_spec_sheet_library/pdf/pehp9526.pdf

Still searching..........

roegs

08-18-2003, 18:10

56Nomad...nice CAT links. Thanks for sending them. Did you notice in the PDF file that they are using dual filters in their fuel system? They really go out of their way to discuss clean fuel. Either they really believe it, or there is a high profit margin on filters... :D

mdrag

08-18-2003, 22:19

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