03 Diesel Market share

[MNBowTie]

Well, IMHO the Chevy diesel market share was fun while it lasted (01,02). I just saw the 03 front end make over and it looks just like the current Avalanche (front cover, Truck Trends). So, Hmm... well, maybe the great Dmax/Ally will help counter this look and keep market share up there? After all looks isn't everything. Then, I read the 03 RAM redo and see 305 HP, 555-torque common rail, pilot injection and 5sp auto Hello, GM is there a counter here? Maybe, there waiting for the 03,G2 PSD final numbers before committing, but, I think they would already now that, by now. Don't get me wrong I’m still very satisfied and GM has a good thing going, it would be fun to see it continue.

[mackin]

The thing with Dodge is they will not get a lot of trading up. Most owners are happy with what the have. Easier to BOMB,NOISEY, POWERFUL all the traits the die hard D/C boys (men) luv.The new Cummins is quieter and more techie in electronics, and the have made some changes in the looks department and that isn't going over all that well either. Just like when most models change. Like us with the new (yukie front end) I'm sure that they will sell a lot after all with the reputation of the CUMMINS they cannot go wrong. Just imagine if GM went with a CAT in there new trucks... There would be no competition.? Right?
MAC :D :D

[Zapper]

IMHO, Nooobody can match the Allison. Not Ford, Chrysler, Mercedes, ZF or anyone. Allisons has over 75 years experience in HEAVY DUTY automatics. There is one reason why the U.S. Government use Allisons in all their equipment. Reliability, not one Transmission related failure in the M1 ** Tank with the X1100 Allison in Desert Storm (sand out the ying-yang), or to date to my knowledege. Could these companies get into the computer software buisness and compete with Microsoft? No! The market on heavy automatics is cornered and until Ford and Chrysler get off their high horse and decide to go with the Allison (which by my understanding most of their engineers already know), there will be NO transmission competition. Just my .02

P.S. I am predjudice.

[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: Zapper ]</p>

[MNBowTie]

Zapper,

I agree the tranny is the heart and the success for GM on this one. You can add all the HP and torque you want, but if you can't put it to the road and make it reliable, then it will back fire. I know I might be a bit premature here, but time will soon tell.

PS. I'm going to hold off on being prejudice until I come back from my canadian rockies trip pulling my 5'er.

[Petrella]

Yeah it would be nice if GM can put a Caterpillar engine in their pickups. Would be nice to open the hood and see the big yellow kitty purring along. The problem is, I believe and a buddy of mine told me that Ford has shares in Caterpillar, so i dont think if Cat designed a diesel engine for a pickup, GM would take the opportunity. But i know a lot of guys who will only buy and swear by Ford, but they said if Cat was available in GM they would kiss their Ford days goodbye. But it probably wont happen. Us as customers should have the choice if we want to put a Cummins, Cat, Detroit, Powerstroke, whatever we want in our Pick up trucks, just like the guys who buy Peterbilts, Kenworths, Freightliners, Western Stars, and have a choice of what engine and tranny they want

Anthony

[Wally]

Cat Engines in a pickup.
Would you be willing to pay an 8-9 thousand dollar premium for the yellow motor? GM looked at cat and ultimately the cost was more than they felt the market would bear. Rightly so! Cat can make a very good engine and they charge a very good price for them too.
Not all of that cost would be for the motor. Some would be for the extra weight capacity needed to haul the yellow motor. Anything Cat built would weigh at least 350 pounds more than the Dmax.

[mackin]

Wally ,


YUP, Just for bragging rights !!!!!!!!! LOL
MAC :D :D

[DieselDennis]

I'll agree with Wally on this one. The CAT engines are way too heavy for a pick-up. And if they stiffed up the springs to support the engine, wouldn't they lose some of the ride quality? The price might also have something to do with it, but no doubt there's a niche out there would pay for it.
I heard that when GM tested the CAT motor it twisted the frame on the 2500s. And what motor would they put in it? I believe a 3126 weighs about 1300 lbs. They wouldn't go with a 3114 (a measely 4 banger), would they?
The question I'm wondering is.....Will GM be greedy with the Allison, or will Ford and D/C finally offer the big bucks and GM will have to start selling Allisons to them, then what will happen? :confused:

[thechevyhdman]

Yeah but now that Caterpillar and Perkins(small engine company) are together why doesnt Cat oversee an engine for smaller vehicles. We just bought a 2001 GMC school bus with a Cat 3126E inline 6 7.2 litre diesel. Engine weight 1086 pounds. Dmax weight 886 pounds. School bus averages over 8.5 miles per gallon. And the corker is the Cat engine is the environmental version low emmissions. Hp rating 207, torque the exact same as the Dmax 520. However, If I had my choice of whom to go to, Id honestly... looking at the big picture I'd take the Cat any day. Look at all the trouble we have with technicians whom dont even know the firing order of our Dmaxes. I take our Cats up to H.O Penn in Newington CT And if you have ever been there or dealt with any H.O. Penn outlet these guys know there engines inside and out. Cat wouldnt release an engine with out training the men about it first. My family has been buying Chevys forever, my Dad still has the first one he owned a 27 convertible just sitting in our cellar. But I have a hard time thinking that GM went to Isuzu to make an engine. Whats there like 10 diesel companies out of the U.S. Granted I own one but my loyalty to Chevrolet is more than my (lack of) loyalty to Japan, hence me owning a Dmax. I mean geez arent Detriot Diesel and Allison sister companies, (I know Ally is) of GM. Why cant we keep business in America. Last I heard before any news of of the new DMAX GM was talking with John Deere about making a diesel. Oh yeah whats weird is I was just reading an Article in fleet owner today Its seems as If Daimler Chrysler is slowly removing Cummins from there engine option in large trucks, And has also removed Detriot Diesel. Seems to me as If Dailmer is hatching plans to sell only Mercedes diesel equipped trucks. Doesnt make sense that there coming out with a G2 isb. I paid 4200 for a half Japanese made diesel, Id spend another half more for a Cat diesel. Just my own thoughts. I love America and I love GM it just seems bogus to have to go to Japan to make a diesel, when there are multiple options here on our soil. Ah Im just blabbing now so I am gonna go, Im sure some whom own Cats understand where Im coming from

[Petrella]

I back you up 100% there chevyhdman!!!!!!

Anthony

[mackin]

thechevyhdman,

You know I'm with you, I want one.
I think someday we will see a version of a CAT in a full size P/U. I think it will be a GM option they run them in there heaver series now (KODAK?).......There was rumors before the D-MAX on a CAT power PU. I think money was the ultimate decision.....I do believe if they would build it would sell...... Baseball, Apple Pie, Chevrolet and Cat,and Allison 6 speed...... WOW.......I hope it's done before I die.....
MAC :D :D :D

[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[Wally]

Check this out:
http://www.caterpillar.com/products/engines_n_power_systems/shared/truck_engines/truck_engines.html

All versions of the 3126 weigh 1250lbs. They don't give physical dimensions but I would be willing to bet that the 3126 would not fit in the present body style without stuffing two cylinders under the firewall much like Dodge does to the Cummins. 300hp and 800ft/lbs in a pick up, are we insane? :D Face it ain't never gonna happen as production vehicle. Sounds like a great project though.

[Breck]

I believe D/C owns Detroit Diesel, Western Star, and Freight Liner, so I doubt you will see just MB diesels in their trucks. I thought I had heard that Cummins has a contract with Dodge till 2007.

GM had a few trucks with "Green" motors but Deere refused to lighten them up; At least that is what I had heard. If that was the case I'm sure that was a few years ago?

How about the Dmax 7800 in a 4500 HD with a solid front axle?

[thechevyhdman]

Breck Im pretty positive there already making c4500 with SFA, And you can also get different versions of the 3126X CAT.

[DmaxMaverick]

GM owns Detroit Diesel. The 350 diesel, 6.2 and 6.5 came off DD drawing boards.

D/C owns nothing their name does not denote (except a non-controlling interest in Mitsubishi). Their current contract agreement with Cummins expires in 2004, but has extension clauses until 2007.

[gg49]

Detroit Diesel is owned by Roger Penske.
He wanted to buy Allison and sell engines and transmissions as a package deal but he did not get Allison.

[gg49]

I also drive a 2002 Freightliner FLD120 with a 470HP Detroit Diesel in it.
You will be able to tell when Daimler splits with DD because there will be no Penske Leasing Freightliners. Right now it is the number 1 truck they use.
But they are having alot of problems with the newer trucks and components made in Mexico.
Mostly electrical...

[bearman]

I would love to see a kitty cat purring under the hood of a GM pickup :D :D :D
Cheers
Bear

[bobojay]

I believe you guys need to catch up on your info. GM sold Detroit Diesel years ago to the Penske organization for almost nothing.
Just last year Penske sold DD to Daimler/Chrysler for BIG bucks.
I believe the DD to DC timing is correct, it was last year or 2000.

It would be a huge mistake for GM to even think about selling Allison. What a rose in their cap it is.

Does everybody realize that the Duramax is being assembled in Dayton, Ohio, not overseas. The engineering was done by Isuzu. The assembly plant is a cooperative effort. Isuzu is also doing the chassis engineering on the S-10 replacement trucks coming up in fall 2003. (Colorado)

[Chevy Ryan]

Bobojay is right. DaimlerChrysler owns all or portions of: Mercedes-Benz
Chrysler
Detroit Diesel
Freightliner
Sterling Trucks
Western Star Trucks
Mitsubishi
Hyundai
Plus a lot more lesser known companies. Most people have no idea how large and powerful Daimler is, from cars to locomotives to jumbo jets.

[sjhRVer]

DMAX sounds big and powerful. Now can you guess what a GMC with a Cat/Allison combo would get called? Why it would be an Alli/Cat (Alley Cat) of course. :D :D :D

Sorry....just couldn't resist.

[Jelisfc]

FYI - Unless I'm mistaken Isuzu is THE largest producer of diesel engines (all sizes)in the world. Not saying their better.

[dmaxstu]

ZAPPER
I drive buses everyday that have ZF automatics every bit as good as Alison. The reason the armed forces can't use them they are built in Germany. That said, I have to admit I like driving the Alison more, I am able to shift the Alison whereas the ZFs are no brainers. You put it in drive and thats it. No shifting makes any difference to the shift point. Stu

[mackin]

If and when the Alley Cat (courtesy of sjhRVer) is born. I will be the first in line........
It sounds to prrrrfect.....Is the General watching and hearing........ WOW, what it could be ,and someday I believe it will be....
MAC :D :D

[Evan A. Beck]

I hate to burst your bubbles, guys, but I have worked on plenty of Cat engines and they are expensive to repair. The 3126B uses the same HEUI injection system as the PowerStroke, and it plagued with all the same problems as the PSD.

After seeing lots of problems with Cat products, I would take a Cummins or DMax over a yellow motor any day.

Bottom line is, "you can't tell a Cat what to do."

BTW, if I am not mistaken, Cummins is the worldwide leader in diesel engine production. Correct me if I'm wrong...

[WannaDieselSub]

The DMAX operation is jointly owned by GM and Isuzu, with each owning 50%. But GM owns 49% of Isuzu, so that means that DMAX is appr 74% owned by GM. Correct?

From my father-in-law who is a buyer for TXDOT, he says Cats are expensive to repair since their parts reuse from one engine model to the next is about nil. Therefore they don't get the economies of scale. Also makes stocking spare parts a real nightmare.

However, according to the (old) news release about the GM medium duty line, they will offer the DMax 7800 or the Cat 3126 in the larger GVWR trucks and the Allison 1000-series (same as in pickup) in applications up to 26,000 GVWR.

Yes, Daimler/Chrysler owns Detroit Diesel. I found it amusing to read a complimentary comment on the TDR about a DD engine in a mail delivery truck. It's amazing how one's point of view changes when "your" company owns the product.

[thechevyhdman]

Well I guess this all boils down to one pinnacle, Its personal preference. We still have our first Cat outside, been used and abused since 1986 Granted its not the most technologically advanced engine(3208NA) but it has not failed us one day in over 16 years. I honestly wish I could say that about our 6.2s and 6.5s. And I dont think Detriot had anything to do with the 6.5 until 1998 when the motor came out in what was it a 440 ft lbs rating. When GM handed them the engine and said give us more power. That is not set in stone but thats all Ive ever read about it. And Im pretty sure that the new Cummins in the Dodge P/U coming out this year uses the same HEUI system as the PSD and Cat so looks like theyll be plauged with troubles too. And in Big trucks only DD is the best selling engine. I personally would rather have a Cat then a cummininngssapart. Maybe they break down more but when they do at least youll be sure they know how to work on it. Have a couple buddies that work on Cats, Its the most popular engine in the Northeast, O&G only runs Cats and from what this guy said Cats are the most popular engine used by the City of New York. I dunno when I see a D11 bulldozer Im thinking wow someone must really like Cat to spend all that money. Then again Im no expert. I dont work on em besides minimal monkey brain stuff but I love em. If im not wrong doesnt Cat cast the blocks for the GM race cars? (NASCAR) Or do the do it for Dodge? Someone told me when they toured the Pieoria, ILL plant they asked the toru guide what the motor was and they said that.?? Someone clear me up if Im wrong too. I got the 6.5 DD engine info from 4 wheeler a few years back. I got the best selling engine= DD from a free swanky calendar I got from the Detriot Diesel/Allison Service Dept when I bought some filters for The Dmax/Ally. And i got the Cummins HEUI info from the 4 wheeler web site (fourwheeler.com) Im not trying to prove anything its just what I thought Ive read.

[sumday_a_dmax]

the whole "CAT's are too expensive tpo put in pick-ups" line of thinking is rediculous. is it by some miracle that cummins, DD, IH, and isuzu are able to produce pick-up sized diesel engines, and have done so for years. there is NO reason that CAT cannot do the same.

plus that, whats so great about CATs anyway? their commercial grade diesels are passable, but not exceptional.

if we are talking about "shudda's", GM shudda used the long proven in-line 6 cylinder that they and isuzu put in their small cab-over trucks, instead of developing a whole new V8, just for the sake of having a V8.

by the way, i love the dmax. i think its a great engine...so far. i think it will in time prove itself, but Gm really shudda gone with a proven design

[Chevy Ryan]

thechevyhdman,
The 2003 Cummins ISBe will not have HEUI injection. It uses Bosch common rail with pilot injection, virtually identical to the Duramax. Cummins would never use HEUI, since it is designed and produced by Cat.

[thechevyhdman]

Yeah you are right it doesnt use the HEUI system I must have read it about Ford. Sorry for the wrong info. Knowing me all the other info is probably wrong too.

[Chevy Ryan]

Ahh, don't be so hard on yourself! smile.gif