lly injectors

[mark45678]

How many of you lly owners have had to have injectors replaced? My truck set a code for the #5 injector missing and injector bank faults for all 4 injectors on that driver. Last year if had the # 7 go bad with the exact same codes . My truck has 69,000 on it and its 5 weeks short of its 2nd birthday. To say that I am disapointed is a under statement , Gm in my opinion needs to do more testing and not with my wallet! Dont get me wrong I am still going to replace my 2004.5 with a 2006 poss the end of this week or next in hopes the lbz is a better motor. I have done fuel fiters every 10~15 thousand miles and still my injector ballance rates are close except the #5 was over +5~6 all others are around 1 or less (worst ones are +5 and -1). :mad: :confused:

[poolman12]

Mark
Got my 2006 LBZ two weeks ago. Liked my 2002 & 2005, but this has so many improvements. Don't feel trans when shifting under normal accelaration, quieter inside, plenty of power, maybe like 05 w/juice on 2 & so far still finding improvements. Truck only has 2K on it but at this time I would tell anyone thinking about it to buy. Paid $ 2,000.00 under red tag, got $ 1,000 rebate & 3.9% finance. I have little knowledge compared to many on this site.
Have a nice day
Poolman
lost profile when someone stole 17 days from our forum, still have old on this reply. Now new one has appeared.

[ 12-21-2005, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: J W Jones ]

[LanduytG]

Mines a 2004.5 purchased June 11, 2004 and now has 52,600 trouble free miles on it. I have one injector that is a little high on balance but has been that way since day one. I have extra fuel filtration and changes filters every 10K. Now that I have said this I am sure it will take a dump tomorrow. smile.gif

Greg

[JD Diesel]

tell my why a peice of metal that is 3 or 4 inchs long and called an injector should cost 750.00 a peice. Sounds to me like a big ripe off. Or we are just getting the shaft the same ways the oil companys are giving it to us. gas is dropping in price and diesel is going up. :mad:

[mark45678]

heres how my conversation I just had with the service tec..... He tells me he thinks the fuel filter and aftermarket air filter I have on my truck is the problem ! At this point I tell them NO they are fine, it has a injector problem... The fuel filter has 3000 mile and I asked him if he cut it open , He replied no he just saw some sediment in the fuel sample whe he drained it . SO I said , sounds like the filters doing its job (and I asked him to cut it open again).His next comment was the air filter , I asked him does the truck have any mass air flow codes? He replied NO , so I asked him how can the air filter be the problem? After 3 phone calls from the dealer I finaly got them to admit then need to drive it .....(it ran fine when it went into the shop) .. 30 mins later I stopped by the dealers service dept and talked to the tec. at this point he has a new OEM air filter and fuel fiter on it and he had just came back from a test drive with it in LIMP mode running on 4 cly ! At this time he tells me he thinks it injector # 2???? I cant say for sure but the Mac scan tool I used had software for up to 2002 (my truck is a 2004.5) so who knows if injector 2 was reading injector 5 on my scanner? I know from past problems with diesel truck and friends that work for GM they always want to point the finger at bad fuel ! Well if you where working on a truck with fuel problems wouldnt you cut the fuler open to see whats traped on both sides of the filter and the condition of the filter ????

Thanks for reading my VENT post , Please keep the comments coming on LBZ and my current problem!

[madmatt]

Since I don't have the truck here I can't say for sure but it sounds a lot like a very common injector connector problem. There is a bulletin pertaining to it.

[mark45678]

Picked my truck up from the dealer today, they did a ecm update and replaced the fuel filter and the #2 and the #7 injector wireing harness, the tec said they do more harness work then injectors on the lly motor? For now it runs good considering the #5 still has high ballance number. For you guys that are running the box stock ecm flash I would get the update done , its noticable that it runs better ! had to pay for the rent a car and the fuel filter I didnt need :rolleyes: . Fuel filter from GM have come way down in price and the new design is longer! list cost was 41.00 !

[DmaxMaverick]

Great to see they got you going.

Have you received your "freebee" filter yet? The campaign should have included your truck. If you haven't, get your money back for the filter, and have them clear your recall.

It's pretty CS they won't cover the rental. What did they think you were going to do? Walk? Not everyone has alternate transportation, other than walking.

[bwr]

How much is an injector job? My neighbor just got an '01 with 70,000 on it. Seems the early ones need injectors around that time. Nice truck though. Has me looking at the LBZ. Thanks.

[DmaxMaverick]

Welcome to the Forums, bwr!

The injector job will be compliments of GM. The extended warranty campaign covers 2001's, and is 7 years, and 200K miles, no deductible. Just be sure he doesn't take it into the dealer with a power adder installed, visible, or evident of such.

[bwr]

Thanks Maverick. I don't think he is having problems yet but it seems they need them around that time. I hope that issue is resolved with the new LBZ. (Which I am getting a quote on right now) smile.gif

[DmaxMaverick]

Originally posted by bwr:
Thanks Maverick. I don't think he is having problems yet but it seems they need them around that time. I hope that issue is resolved with the new LBZ. (Which I am getting a quote on right now) smile.gif Those issues is long behind us. There is a world of difference between the LB7 and LBZ injectors, and the system. Even the LLY injectors haven't seemed to be of any real concern. Yes, there have been issues, but nothing that can be considered global or common. As with anything, a product line, regardless of manufacturer, will have some issues. If you are lucky, it will be someone else's problem. That's just the way it goes. Don't read too much into what you see here and other BB's. Many of the folks here came here with a problem. Don't judge an entire product line by what you see on the internet. How often do you see posts (here and elsewhere) about folks not having problems? I'm a firm believer in, "if you look for a problem, you find one, whether it really exists, or not". Too much information is not necessarily a good thing.

[gmmerlin]

What you need to understand is that GM did not design the fuel system on the DMAX.
The fuel system is a Bosch design and the injectors are Bosch componants.
One of the reasons they are so expensive is the injector is an extremely complicated design.
You are talking about a componant that must open and close under varying pressure conditions.
One reason the inectors are failing is due to water in the fuel..this attacks the precision internal componants (LB7)

Injector failures on the LLY are rare, but do happen..in my experiance it is an electrical concern more than mechanical.
You will get a driver fault for all four injectors if one goes open.
The firing of the injectors is complicated, but in a nut shell, if one doesn't fire, the rest cannot fire.

[jbplock]

Originally posted by gmmerlin:
... One reason the inectors are failing is due to water in the fuel..this attacks the precision internal componants (LB7) ..

Injector failures on the LLY ..in my experiance it is an electrical concern more than mechanical...gmmerlin,

Welcome to the forum!

Do you have any insight as to the differences between the LB7 and LLY/LBZ injectors? Are the new injectors less susceptible to water or is the new double layer filter (TP1298B) just better at removing water?

smile.gif

[Rick Malone]

the dealer replaced #7 on mine at about 5000 miles the rest the tec. said were in blance, just went in for its second oil change and they checked them agine and all are in great blance also changed the fuel filter and it had some water and junk in it thats why they re-checked it, the trk. has now a little over 7000 miles on it, you realy have to find a good place to buy fuel.

[mark45678]

Good dry fuel is a problem for sure! Guy like JK have said for years to use a dash of fuel system additive every tank! This still hasnt changed and not all fuel system additives work the same .

[gmmerlin]

Originally posted by jbplock:
gmmerlin,

Welcome to the forum!

Do you have any insight as to the differences between the LB7 and LLY/LBZ injectors? Are the new injectors less susceptible to water or is the new double layer filter (TP1298B) just better at removing water?

smile.gif [/QB]The LB7 injectors were Bosch gen 1 injectors.
They had many design problems and servicability was a PIA.
When The LLY came out, it was redesigned to use the Bosch gen 2 injectors.
The injector itself has been totally redesigned (still operates under the same principle) and is less suseptable to water corrosion.
The LBZ injector is a Bosch Gen 3 injector (basically the same as Gen 2) with some improvements.
Better filtration helps also quality fuel helps.
The problem with diesel fuel is not the type, but the storage.
One thing about LB7 injectors is if they fail, the tech should take a good hard look at the fuel quality and moisture content.
If the truck has contaminated fuel, it must be replaced also or you will run into the same injector failure further down the road.

[jbplock]

Originally posted by gmmerlin:...
One thing about LB7 injectors is if they fail, the tech should take a good hard look at the fuel quality and moisture content.
If the truck has contaminated fuel, it must be replaced also or you will run into the same injector failure further down the road. gmmerlin,

Thanks for the info! ... also .. just curious .. how would you go about determining if the fuel was contaminated and/or contained water?

smile.gif

[mark45678]

One thing about LB7 injectors is if they fail, the tech should take a good hard look at the fuel quality and moisture content.
If the truck has contaminated fuel, it must be replaced also or you will run into the same injector failure further down the road.


One of many ways GM gets out of warrenty work ! It puts the OWNER of the truck in a law suit with the fuel station ! Water is a KNOWN problem GM should design a fuel stystem that can deal with " NORMAL " amounts of water in the fuel ! Mack , Detroit , Cummings , Cat , all deal with water just fine so why are we playing around with a fuel filter thats $50.00 and cant do the job its designed to do ? How many of you Guys KNOW gm is giving out NEW fuel filter for FREE on any 2001 ~ 2005? If that doesnt tell you GM knows the filter a problem I dont know what will ! Dont take my bitching the wrong way , GM builds a good product but why am I doing there field testing ? I am going to buy my 3rd duramax truck and my 6th GM diesel , and the best truck was my simple 1993 6.5 td ! worst problem that truck had was needing a lift pump every 50000 ~ 60000 miles.(atleast it was a cheap part ) :mad:

[gmmerlin]

Originally posted by mark45678:
One thing about LB7 injectors is if they fail, the tech should take a good hard look at the fuel quality and moisture content.
If the truck has contaminated fuel, it must be replaced also or you will run into the same injector failure further down the road.


One of many ways GM gets out of warrenty work ! It puts the OWNER of the truck in a law suit with the fuel station ! Water is a KNOWN problem GM should design a fuel stystem that can deal with " NORMAL " amounts of water in the fuel ! Mack , Detroit , Cummings , Cat , all deal with water just fine so why are we playing around with a fuel filter thats $50.00 and cant do the job its designed to do ? How many of you Guys KNOW gm is giving out NEW fuel filter for FREE on any 2001 ~ 2005? If that doesnt tell you GM knows the filter a problem I dont know what will ! Dont take my bitching the wrong way , GM builds a good product but why am I doing there field testing ? I am going to buy my 3rd duramax truck and my 6th GM diesel , and the best truck was my simple 1993 6.5 td ! worst problem that truck had was needing a lift pump every 50000 ~ 60000 miles.(atleast it was a cheap part ) :mad: Instead of bitching about GM, why don't you bitch about the poor fuel quality from the fuel companies and their tanks.
GM isn't avoiding the warranty, and I didn't imply that.
I have found that many of the LB7 injectors that have failed also had water in the fuel.
Since diesel engines are fuel controlled, I always check fuel quality first..If I educate my customers, they can avoid future problems.

[gmmerlin]

Originally posted by jbplock:
gmmerlin,

Thanks for the info! ... also .. just curious .. how would you go about determining if the fuel was contaminated and/or contained water?

Usually a visual inspection does the trick.

[mark45678]

Being a diesel owner since 1992 , I know poor fuel is more a issue in the winter time, not that its something you should forget in the summer ! Explain to me WHY gm doesnt want us to use any fuel additive in a duramax to deal with water?( I still use about a 1/2 oz every few tank fulls). On the average I burn about 50 ~ 60 gallons a fuel a week and I try to limit my where I buy fuel. (cheap , high volume dealer) I do agree the lly injectors seem to have less of problem with the fuel end of the injectors but the electrical end is no better then lb7. failer is a failer and you need a tow...

[mark45678]

I just want to say thank you to all of you that wrote in to my post . smile.gif

[gmmerlin]

Originally posted by mark45678:
Being a diesel owner since 1992 , I know poor fuel is more a issue in the winter time, not that its something you should forget in the summer ! Explain to me WHY gm doesnt want us to use any fuel additive in a duramax to deal with water?( I still use about a 1/2 oz every few tank fulls). On the average I burn about 50 ~ 60 gallons a fuel a week and I try to limit my where I buy fuel. (cheap , high volume dealer) I do agree the lly injectors seem to have less of problem with the fuel end of the injectors but the electrical end is no better then lb7. failer is a failer and you need a tow... GM does recommend diesel fuel additives for water removal.Only alcohol free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors diesel engines. GM Diesel Fuel Conditioner

[jbplock]

Originally posted by gmmerlin:
GM does recommend diesel fuel additives ...]Gmmerlin,

According to the following Bulletin GM does not recommend or endorse using additives

[madmatt]

One of many ways GM gets out of warrenty work ! GM doesn't use this to get out of warrenty work, your dealership does. GM never even finds out about it unless your dealership tells on you. Do you trust your service dept. to look out for you? I've done many fuel system repairs that I could have coped out on due to contamination in the fuel system. When this occurs I simply make the customer aware that this issue needs to be dealt w/ before the repairs are made. When that issue is taken care of I make the repair. Yeah the contamination could have (and probably has) been the cause, but I can't prove it nor do I care to so the repair gets done, the customer drives away happy and I get paid. It's a good idea to keep as best a relationship as possible w/ your service dept. and if they want to be jacka$$s about it, find another. Bailing on warrenty work is usually the work of a lazy tech who'd rather find a way out of getting dirty then God forbid do his job.

[gmmerlin]

[quote]Gmmerlin,

According to the following Bulletin GM does not recommend or endorse using additives

[jbplock]

[quote]Originally posted by gmmerlin:

Information on Diesel Fuel Additives #03-06-04-017B - (Sep 7, 2005)

This bulletin is being revised to add model years, enhance the content and add GM diesel fuel conditioner. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 03-06-04-017A (Section 06 -- Engine/Propulsion System).

Important: The use of diesel fuel additives is not required or recommended for the 6.5L diesel or the 6.6L Duramax

[gmmerlin]

Dude, your taking only pieces of the puzzle to suit your argument.
Take the entire statement
[quote]Important: The use of diesel fuel additives is not required or recommended for the 6.5L diesel or the 6.6L Duramax

[dmax lover]

Mr Merlin -
Thanks for the real world experience update on injector failures - I had an lb7 (injectors at 25k miles) and now have an lly.

Feds say that truck must run reliably and meet emissions on "available fuel" - hence, the wiggle words on whether or not they recommend it.

I wonder if the new GM diesel fuel additive smells just like stanadyne? smile.gif

jeff

[Kennedy]

My best advice is to use FPPF Total Power in every tank of fuel. If the dealer ever asks tell him that you run Stanadyne.

[gmmerlin]

Originally posted by dmax lover:
Mr Merlin -
Thanks for the real world experience update on injector failures - I had an lb7 (injectors at 25k miles) and now have an lly.

Feds say that truck must run reliably and meet emissions on "available fuel" - hence, the wiggle words on whether or not they recommend it.

I wonder if the new GM diesel fuel additive smells just like stanadyne? smile.gif

jeff Hey no problem..just trying to to clear up misconceptions.
As long as the additive is alcohol free GM says its OK to use

The problem with diesel fuel is not the fuel itself, but how it is stored..this is where the problem arises.
High volume diesel outlets usually have less water and contaminants then lower volumes outlets.
My customers that have fuel problems I find are purchasing their diesel at low volume outlets.
Once they change outlets, no more contamination issues.

[madmatt]

The biggest problem we have around here is with the farmers and construction workers who use on site tanks that don't get drained and refilled w/ clean fuel very often.

[jbplock]

Some good discussion here on fuel issues

[copperhead]

I find it interesting that we have all this discussion about what we must do in order to keep our injectors from failing. Why do we not jump through the same whoops for every other functional piece of our trucks?

[Steve Rapp]

What do you suggest?

[copperhead]

My point is GM should get it right. If its really turning out that its NOT the injectors themselves just the new emission requirements forcing higher op pressure coupled with dirty fuel, why was the filtration not designed to deal with fuel that EVERYONE knew was so bad? The finger is now being pointed at the fuel, first it was the injectors, not after some time a new conclusion is being reached. I'm not saying don't upgrade your truck. The other interesting thing is why has there only been a select group of trucks provided with this new injector warranty. As an '03 owner, I'm hosed. Its one thing for a truck owner to upgrade filtration so they can easily make 300k rather than 200k, but to upgrade merely to make 100k. Come on GM. I don't want to bash them here. I own two. My '97 suburban has been awesome. But this fuel filtration problem is insane!

[madmatt]

you can't pratically design a fuel filtration system that would say remove every last bit of foreign matter down to a 0 micron. If it was that way you'd be changing filters at every fuel stop. A happy medium must be found that gives both long service life of the filter and protects the engine. the new injectors seemed to have helped as well.

[copperhead]

First Madmatt, I appreciate your input on the forum as it has helped me on many occasions.

Now back to the subject, I agree, but if everyone KNOWS that US diesel is so dirty, shouldn't the filtration system have been desgined to make design life of the truck?

[richp]

Copperhead has hit the nail on the head.

If GM and every other diesel manufacturer knows the general range of fuel quality its customers are going to encounter around the US, why haven't the filtration systems been designed in at the front end to account for that factor?

The irony is that this is so short-sighted on GM's part. Spend an extra $15 (or some such relatively small amount in mass quantities) on a better filter system, and warranty costs to them go way down and customer satisfaction goes up.

I love my '01 K2500 DMAX. But I candidly confess I envy a buddy of mine with a late 90's Cummins Dodge for the absolutely trouble-free life he's had with his very high mileage truck. And every long trip I take now that I'm over 100k miles, I sweat a little more over when a big bucks repair is going to hit me. Injectors already done twice on GM's tab, but for the money I paid for a truck that has so many other desirable features, the diesel option ought to buy you at least a quarter million trouble-free miles.

For what it's worth.

Rich Phillips
Member #27

[madmatt]

I agree that the first filters left some to be desired, although the latest ones seem to be much better. also as far as warrenty dollars go, there have been few failures w/ the new injectors with the same old fuel so that tells me that it wasn't just fuel quality causing the problems. I've also seen the early injectors go south on trucks w/ good filter service history and what appeared to be good clean, quailty fuel so I'd say the early problems were more of a design and enginering fault then poor fuel quality.

[mark45678]

Ok now here is some more fuel for the fire..... MY Dad just picked up a used 2005 ford F-350 Power joke 6.0l truck . It has 2 fuel filters one is on the frame rail and the other is on the top of the motor! Why did Ford put 2 filters in there truck? :eek: I still say if dirty fuel is the problem then GM should know what the injectors can handle and design a filtration system around that ! FYI his 6.0L truck cant keep up with my 100% stock truck even without the juice pluged in !

[mark45678]

ROUND III :eek: it went in on monday again with very similar problems :mad: .... Then ended up replaceing 2 more injector wireing harness pig tails.... Am I the only one that this is happening to ? Is this a problem with the LLY only? Does the LBZ share the same part of the wiring harness????

[madmatt]

#2 & #7 are the only ones I've seen fail and the LB7 had a different wiring setup all together since the injectors are under the covers.

[mark45678]

Matt driver side front cly and pass rear injector wireing harness connector that plug in to the injector.... They replaced it and the problem went away for a few weeks? does this sound right. The thing I really got ****ed off over it looks like they spliced the harness to replace the conector, IS THIS A NORMAL repair???? :eek:

[madmatt]

Yep thats it! I think the splices are a lot better then having the whole front end of your truck disassembled and the whole harness replaced which was the previous repair for this failure. It was a total pain and took forever. If the guy has done many you shouldn't be able to tell it was ever done. If you follow GM directions though you end up w/ a mile of excess wire and it puts the wires in a worse bind then before. You have to play w/ it a little :D to get the repair really looking nice. Have you had another failure w/ one of the same cylinders?

[mark45678]

honestly its hard to tell , like you said the guy did a neat job . looking at what the shop work order says # 2 and 8 where fixed and the first one says 2/7 If I recall.. I think its BS , I think they only did 1 the first time and wouldnt tell me that there repair failed. I had a rental car both times (paid for by me) and paid the 100.00 deductable on the second service. The first trip in they told me my K&N filter caused it , then they said the fuel fiter needs changed...... At this point I had just about enough BS knowing the fuel had been in the truck for 300 miles aready and the fuel filter only had 2000 miles on it! and I had dumped the fuel filter out to see if there was water or particles in it! :eek: To put a end to this story..... LBZ is sitting in the yard right now.

What exactly is the GM way of fixing the harness, Butt splices , solder and heat srink??????

[madmatt]

Heat shrink enclosed butt connectors. They come w/ the new plugs. 2 and 7 are the only one listed in the bulletin and the only ones i've seen have problems.