New to List - ? about Duramax

[RogerR]

Drivers, I am looking to you all on this forum to give sound advice and direction. Please no brand bashing - just sound advise.
I have a 2000 F350 PSD auto 4x4 DRW LWB CC etc. I pull a 24ft box length 3 Hore LQ. We weight - total gross load combined 20000 to 22000 pnd. WELL over the advised safe limit of the Ford.

I was going to look at the F450/500 with the new 6.0. BUT all he reports indicate this is NOT a good idea at this time.
So, I am here to ask about the issues with the Chev and the Duramax. I believe I will need the C4500.
I MUST have a 4x4. It appears the Kodiak will not be out till 04/05 that is a bummer.

I have read much of the comments herein. I do not see all that many issues with the engine and transmission.
I was lead to believe the alum heads were a BIG failure mode problem. Not so?

Are they comming out with STEEL heads for 04? The local dealer says they are suppose to do that.

From what I can tell there just are not enough problems with the power train and chassis to prevent me from not considering the Chev.
I will say I was sold on the Ford and just assumed I would move up to the 450/500 chassis to correct my over load problem - both with GVWR and GCWR. My GVW is about 12500 ( my truck limit is 12200)
Petty cosmetic issues are not an issue.
Just want to know if this rig will be the better option. I really hate to wait till the C4500 4x4 arrives but may be better to do that then buy into all the problems with Ford 6.0. ( I am on the Ford list- so I am aware of the issues)

Thank You for your advise If you have issues and the posts are herein, just post me the link.

Roger R
you can email me in private
vmaxept@tellico.net

[CanadaKev]

Roger,
Welcome!
Perhaps the best DP member to talk to is Broker.
He runs Dmax 3500's side by side with PSD F550's pulling 53' trailers. He puts hundreds of thousands of miles on them so has lots of first hand comparisons.

My personal opinion is that a 3500 Duramax will handle 22,000 lb GCVW easily!
Kev

[ 04-21-2003: Message edited by: CanadaKev ]</p>

[FirstDiesel]

And the aluminum head thing is just a myth.

[mackin]

GM/Isuzu is not going to cast Iron heads in 04 on the 6.6 ....

This is also a rumor, and shame on the dealer for not knowing the product they sell.....

GM is having excellent success with the Duramax Allison platform..... Nothing but tweaking left to do,with up coming 4th year production....


Good luck with your decision....

MAC

[ 04-21-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[pinehill]

You should't really need a 4500, Roger. Many people here are easily handling a combined weight of 22,000 lb with a 3500.

[TBC]

Roger

The 2500HD D/A is rated for CGVWR is 22,000 lbs and depending on cab and bed configuration 15, 500 to 15,900 tow rating. The tongue weight rating may be out of limit but you will have to check into that. The 3500 should handle what you are towing without any problem.

Take either one and add Edge Juice and that will give you all the power you need. Stock will do the job but the juice makes it more fun.

I have 26,000 miles on mine and no problems. Have seen lots of Duramax engined GM's towing RV lately. Get the facts and compare and you will make the right choice.

Tom

[RogerR]

Thanks for the responses so far.
I was not able to find anything out about the steel head rumor.. the dealer was trying to sell me a truck. I guessed that after I did the reading on the list.

I am concerned while the 3500 should be able to pull the 22k but is it rated by Chev to do that -- finding out the rated total combined weight ratings is a real bear..
My PSD is only rated at 20k.
Concern is not with pulling but with white kunkle stopping. Coming down a 7% grade with fading brakes or a red lite at the bottom of a hill is no fun.. been there done that with a 28 ft motorhome.
So far the Ford is doing great, BUT - However, I DID replace the rotors and the brake pads at 36100 post warranty with the South Carolina Clutch after market brake system at a cost of $400.. but it DOES stop much better then stock.

So is the 3500 STOCK brakes strong enough to hold up to the HD high load braking?
Or will I have to put on a better rotor pad system?

That was one major reason for looking at the C4500.

Comming up on year 5 with the Dmax/All setup - it does appear most of the major bugs are out of the system.

SO the next question just what IS REALLY required to make this truck do work? The MODS that are REALLY needed.
I assume a good air cleaner, AE or KN. Then a 4inch exhaust?
Turbo Temp gauge. I use post t.
I have done this on the PSD, as well as a tran temp. I see I can get one on the D/A SO I wont have to add that.

I do NOT really believe I need the chips. My PSD is stock as far as power options. Its strong enough to do the job and it gets about 13mpg loaded. -- and no cackle - at least not real bad.

I will read more, but by 2004 year order time, I need to make a decision. I just am concerned the 3500 will be too marginal. But I MUST have the 4x4
Thanks again.
Now to read more.
Roger

[Rick T]

Roger,
I've got 28000 miles on my 01 regular cab 3500 4x4 (DMax/Allison). Probably 4000 of that is towing my 3H LQ horse trailer which weights up to 13,500 lbs. I suppose my truck is 7,000 lbs. or so. This combination, pure stock, tows like a dream. A 1200 mi. round trip to Redmond, Oregon never saw a highway speed under 55 or so on the worst grade. I have no need for more power; towing horses I would not trade 1% or reliability for increased horsepower, but I might feel differently if I were towing an 5th wheel. With the tow/haul mode I barely have to use the brakes on the downhills. The empty trailer puts about 3100 lbs. in the truck bed; since the horses are largely over the rear axles, I would suppose my loaded bed weight is no more than 3500 lbs. The truck handles this easily.

Based on my experience I would not hesitate to tow at or near the GCVWR. I did replace the rear suspension with air ride, but this was done more for comfort when towing a small horse trailer. Also serves to keep the truck level at all times which I find convenient.

Rick T.

[George Gozelski]

Roger, I have a 2002 3500 crew cab 4x4 D/A and overall, it's been a good truck. I originally ordered one with the 6 speed manual (which shifts smooth as silk) but opted for the Allison equipped model prior to its arrival.

If I were pulling heavy loads like you, I would opt for the 6 speed and would then install exhaust, engine brake and a performance module. If you want to "beef up" and Allison equipped Duramax, you will need to spend about $3,000 on the tranny alone!

Either way you go is still a good choice, this coming from a former Dodge/Cummins owner!

[SoCalDMAX]

Roger,

I'd say you'd be happy even towing that with a 2500HD Duramax/Allison. I've got load range E tires rated at 3525lbs ea for a total rear tire cap. of 7050lbs. With a Jordan brake controller, the truck and 10,000lb trailer stops faster than the unloaded truck does.

The Allison grade braking is almost too good, coming down a 6% grade, I hold the brake slightly and it downshifts and I end up stepping on the throttle to keep the downhill speed up. I'd recommend a good exhaust brake tied into the TCM for towing any more trailer than that, and it will probably slow and stop like you just dropped an anchor!

The best part of the Duramax is the ride comfort coupled with the potential power the engine can put out. IIRC, John Kennedy blazed up a 6% grade with over 16,000lbs on a trailer from a standing start, he was still accelerating when he ran out of hill at about 89mph!!! I've got a lot less hp (401), but I've already shredded all of the nearly new tires off of my trailer and upgraded to much better tires.

Brokers got over 485,000mi out of his 1st Dmax/Allison, and the rest are on track to do the same. He also stated the Dmax/Alli and Dmax/6spd combos are getting better fuel economy than their ford counterparts by 1 or 2 mpg even though they run 10 to 15mph faster avg speed.

Regards, Steve

[FirstDiesel]

George

Where do you come up with this 3k to beef up the Allison from??? If you want to add power adders and pull 400 hp you need to beef the Allison but I haven't heard of 1 single person needing to beef a stock engine truck for towing purposes.

I have heard of quite a few having failed flywheels though. :eek:

[a64pilot]

RogerR,
I've got 57,000 on my 01 3500. I pull about 10,000lbs more than you are talking about. I still have the stock brake pads. I am overgrossed and drive like it. I pull probably less than 10% of total miles. It has handled this weight stock just fine. I have only pulled on rolling terrain. I wouldn't pull the backhoe in the mountains.
You can't have too much truck. Ford will fix the 6.0's problems. I am not aware of them but I am led to believe they are not terminal. Wait a year or so.
If you decide on GM I believe you will be happy as long as you realize that you are driving at or nearly at max gross. The Dmax/Allison as delivered is a good combo. There is finally no weak link in GM's Diesels that I know of. You don't have to modify or improve anything for the truck to perform well at 30,000 or so in rolling terrain as long as you use common sense.

[Husker Fan]

Roger,

The Chevy has a CGVW of 22,000 #s. My company pulls a flatbed with industrial equipment with our 2003. Our last trip was 1,903 miles, and the entire setup weighed 19,200 #s. The truck (All stock, I

[gardnerteam]

Roger - I've been towing well over 22,000 lbs with trailers of various configurations since early 1970's first with Fords then after 1980 with GM. All since 82 have been GMC 4X4 diesels. 80 to 93 were duallys, then went to single rear tire. Over 20 trucks. One had a Case-Cummins transplant by Las Vegas Cummins. All had various quirks, problems, weak areas (transmissions!!; overheating on the Grapevine!!), but did the job safely. My duramax outperforms every one of them by a wide margin with absolutely no problems after 40,000 miles, some of those miles towing 30,000 lbs up and down 6 to 9% grades. I tow triple axle trailers with brakes, use tow haul, and find this is the best brake system I've ever had even on the steepest long grades - the Grapevine northbound in California. The truck works! Lowest upkeep, repair, and maintainence of any of the trucks I've owned. And unlike many of the other trucks I've towed with, this one has never felt like it was being pushed to the limit by towing that kind of weight.

[Amianthus]

IMHO, you may be outside the safe (and legal) weight of the Dmax. Yes, it can be done. But get stopped once, and you're cooked. You should move into the 4500, F-550, or perhaps an FL60.

As for the AL head thing, as far as I've been able to find out, the 6.6 will continue with the current design. Now the new I-6 dmax for use in the bigger trucks, I don't know.

One other thing to consider is wether or not Ford gets this 6.0 fixed or not, you should be towing with an exhaust brake and the 6.0 will not take one. The Dmax and ISBe will. Just keep that in mind when you're looking at these trucks also. Hope this helps you make your decision.

[pinehill]

Amianthus,

I am shocked and appalled! Your posts are consistently chock full of good info and wise opinions, but here you have let us down a bit.

From the Chevy trucks Trailering Guide:

The Dmax 6.6 is capable of handling a gross combined weight of 22,000 lb.

The max fifth wheel/gooseneck trailer weights are,
2500HD 4x4 Crewcab D/A - 15,700 lb
3500 4x4 Crewcab D/A - 15,000 lb
With truck weights at about 7,000 lb, this again gives about 22,000 lb max GCWR

Max pin weights are,
2500HD - 2500 lb
3500 - 3500 lb

With the weights Roger gave us, he certainly would be absolutely legal and have no problems with a 3500.

[ 04-22-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]</p>

[Rick T]

Roger,
When I responded earlier I hadn't read your post carefully enough to note that you're towing a trailer configuration virtually identical to mine: 24' box length 3H LQ. Mine's a Sooner weighing 8990 lbs empty (no spare, no propane), so I've got to be 13,500 loaded with water, hay, horses tack and other junk. The Sooner's are quite low to the ground so I had to raise my trailer 2" and had orginally added longer shackles prior to changing over to the air ride suspension. If you decide to go with a 3500 you won't be disappointed. Good luck.

Rick T.

[Amianthus]

Pinehill, I understand what you're saying. I'm not saying that he's overweight as he described it. But he might have occasion to be. How often does one weigh their truck, horse trailer, equipment, passengers, full tank of fuel, etc.? It would be very easy for him to exceed his weight limit. And I'm sure many people do without intention.

That also being said, is it safer to run a vehicle a max capacity? Or to run a vehicle at somewhere less than maximum capacity? I'm not saying that the Dmax can't do it. I know it can. The HD Dodge can do that same job also. But is it really wise? Not to mention the increased wear and tear on the tow vehicle. I don't care which brand it is. Load it to the max and you will wear it out sooner than if you loaded it somewhat less. I guess that was what I was mostly thinking about. Having someone purchase the wrong vehicle for the application and then getting all bent outta shape when it doesn't work like they thought it should.

I still stand by the fact that he should have an exhaust brake. Engine braking or not, I feel this is an absolute must for towing anything over 5,000 lbs. Although, that's just my opinion.

[pinehill]

Yes, I like to keep some margins, too. But then there's Broker, who runs his 3500 rigs at max weight or more and gets several hundred thousand on each without breaking anything.

[Maverick]

Thanks Mdrag.

Rodger,
With over 120,000 miles on my 3500 towing a gooseneck, I have yet to have any issues to worry about. About 1/2 of those miles have been loaded miles of 22k gross weight or better. The most has been just under 33K gross. The truck can pull what you want. As far as high load braking goes it stops very well with the grade braking in the Allison but just drive smart if you encounter a stop light at the bottom of a 7% grade. Like anything that you would drive, if your going to fast to begin with you will burn up the brakes and probably not stop in time. You will enjoy the 3500. Go for it.

[mackin]

Amianthus

Power of suggestion peer pressure guy here ..... tongue.gif

You should bow out here ....... ;)

Implying that the Duramax would, could or might even change to Cast heads in the 6.6 is TDR gossip, from the kids in the General Diesel forum, with their pet names ..... :rolleyes:

Just had to throw That dig in .... No offense I hope .... But I wish Robin would cleans that crap up like the stealer reference.... Just looks very child like .....

There has been no issues with GM/Isuzu design to even consider leaving what has been said couldn't be done,by Dodge and Ford forum members..... Hard to believe, huh ??

The Duramax 7.8 liters are cast heads from the beginning ........


MAC :D :D :D

[NutNbutGMC]

Fuel injector(s) and fuel pump is a problem that I won't risk again, after three go-arounds of down time for repairs. I have no more patience with the General.

[George Gozelski]

First Diesel,

You are correct, you don't have to beef up the Duramax for towing. I suggested to Roger that if he would be pulling super heavy loads, a power module might be in order. If you have an Allison equipped truck you are at the limit of what the transmission can do with the addition of a power module. It costs about $3,000 to buy the level 1 and 2 Allison transmission "fix" from ATS diesel. If one installs those items a lot of horsepower can now be utilized if you choose to "beef up" the Duramax!

I feel that the 6 speed equipped Duramax can hold more power than the Allison without having to spend all that extra money.

There is certainly nothing wrong with keeping your truck stock. But, once you start adding "power toys" it's kind of hard to go back to stock!

[RogerR]

Been away for a while- riding.
Thanks to all the D/A drivers. You have provided ample information for me to really consider the DA 3500.

I did some checking here in Tenn with DOT. TENN does not care what the plated GVW numbers are - as long as they are not exceeded AND I pay for a tag that covers the total weight I am hauling.
The issue of adding up the plated weights in not a problem in TN. While other states may do that.

Concern is the plated GVW of my LQ GN trailer is 14000. It weighed this time 12500 loaded.
My Ford plated GVW is 11200. So I am under the 26k
As well as the ACTUAL weight has been just over 22k one time.
My truck is 8900 fueled with me in it.

The issue with the plated vs actual weight does appear to vary from state to state.
Now the 3500 with a plated GVW of 15000? plus my trailer I am at 29000 plated weight.. THAT could be a problem
While my actual weight would be around 22k
Plus my truck loaded gvw will never exceed the limit.
This truck- trailer weight business is a real mess. You never know for sure if you are going to be legal in what state. I travel all over the east and to the southwest.
Guess when the DOT cops and big goverement decides they will shut most of down.

As of now the 4500 is out - no 4x4 - that is a must have.
I will get the extended cab with long bed.
So now I will start the mading dealer search game.

One option is the F550 in 04 when the psd 6.0 bugs are better.
The only other option is a smaller trailer and I dont see that happing. We both really like this rig, but a smaller LQ by 2 ft would really cut the weight.

Again thanks to all for the advise.

[teporter]

I have a 01 GMC 2500HD crew cab 4x4 with an 8'Royal Summit bed. I pull a 24' gooseneck trailer that I use as a jobsite storage box. I have put 88k miles on my truck & just weighed my trailer on scales: trailer 3 axles on scale still hooked onto truck=18,770, truck & trailer on scale= 29,870 lbs. My rear springs are bad now, going to get re-arched & add some. My brakes are have never been touched & look like they have 20k miles left to go. I have just have electric brakes on 2 axles on trailer. I have had 1 injector crack at 82k, & now at 88k have an injector pump bad but I believe this is due to bad fuel filtering & I'm fixing that now also. I know this is WAY over the limit & don't pull this much weight very often but when I do this truck will pull & handle like nothing I have ever drove. Got a speeding ticket pulling this trailer at 86 MPH in a 65MPH. I'm looking at buying another truck soon...think I might move up to a 3500 now!!

[ 04-29-2003: Message edited by: teporter ]</p>