Towing with juice ?

[Andy L]

I have been reading all Juice related posts with great interest and am seriously considering purchasing one. Before I drop $800.00 I would like to hear more feedback from those who have towed extensivly while using the juice. Info such as egt, boost, trailer wieght, steepness and speed on hills, juice setting etc. Any feedback much appreciated. Oh I allmost forgot,... any good stories about kicking butt on the PSD and Cummins guys!!! Thanks in advance. Andy.

[SoCalDMAX]

Hi Andy,

If you do a search, a number of people have posted their results towing with the Juice. In general, they've reported great power, it stays in OD MUCH more and in some cases better fuel mileage. That kinda goes along with the OD, since they're traveling the same speed but at much lower rpm than if they were in 4th gear. If traveling on level ground, the gains (if any) would not be as great as in steep mountains, for obvious reasons.

I can attest to this: I use the Power Plug and propane. I've ridden in a truck with the Duramaximizer. All 3 of these work as advertised, but they increase power linearly with the rpm. They all advertise hp/tq at the crank.

The Juice gives great gobs of torque very low in the rpm band and you'll find yourself driving with VERY little throttle and the tranny shifting lower in the rpm band for a given throttle position. Edge rates the Juice at the rear wheel, which would equate to ~115hp at the crank. The torque numbers are equally impressive, but the real power is the area under the curve, especially when it's down that low in the rpm range.

Regards, Steve

[Andy L]

Thanks for the reply SoCalDmax. Your info you provided is useful and is along the lines of the info that has been posted by other users of the Juice box. I have been closely following the posts on this subject since the beginning. However, I am looking for some specifics: i.e. exhaust temps while pulling a heavy trailer up a hill? Can you keep the exhaust temps within the safe limits of 1250 (pre turbo)while pulling an approx. 10,000 lb. trailer up a long hill?

The additional power that the juice box makes is very attractive, but not if it comes at the expense of engine damage due to exhaust gas temperatures. I know many people may not have gauges to measure EGT, but if anybody does, I would sure like to hear about their observations.

Thanks.
Andy

[Joe.G]

SoCalDMAX
I didn't know that the Juice box was rated at the rear wheels. That is awsome considering the losses on the transmision, I read somewhere that this engine tuned to full output was like 460 hp on the dyno. I would guess there is at least a 30% friction loss thru the power train on these trucks, what do you think?

[Kennedy]

The Juice is only as dangerous as the loose nut behind the steering wheel :D

Seriously, properly instrumented, the Juice's output can be modulated to maintain safe operation. Improving the airflow helps a great deal as well. What the Juice does, is allow you do do more work with less pedal, and it is seldom necessary to use all that is available.

[TLA]

I have been towing up to 30,000 +, running in level 3. Highest post turbo temp I have seen is 900. That was pulling a long, gradual grade in OD at 60 mph. A downshift dropped the temp to 850. I have level 2 set in tow/haul, so that is my fall back. I could also slow down. Get a good pyro, put it where it becomes one of your primary gauges, watch it like a hawk on the hills, and you will have no problems.

[SoCalDMAX]

Andy,

I believe that the different power modules all add fuel one way or another. Increased EGTs would be an indication of more fuel without a corresponding increase in air. So I don't think any one of them is going to produce dangerous EGTs if installed with a good exhaust and used judiciously. They all have adjustable power levels for the proper application (towing, empty, etc.)

I did experiment with the Juice and propane and saw exactly the same EGTs I did with propane alone. The 5th gear was the limiting factor on those brief runs... ;)

Joe G.,

IIRC, the Allison consumes about 18.5% of the power, but we could say 18-20% to be safe. So if Steve at the dyno days was only losing 18% and making 423 rwhp, he was making 515hp at the crank. Or 20% loss would be 528hp.

Not too bad for a stock tranny and driving it home. He had the propane turned down quite a bit, too. I'm hoping that the same results could be achieved with Juice and propane alone. Obviously not for heavy towing ;)

Excellent advice from John and TLA!

Regards, Steve

[Wiley]

Andy L

I'll probably be flamed for this but I'll give you my two cents anyway. I haven't found much of the towing information to match my experience with the Juice.

I too monitored the posts on chips for some time. Most everything was oriented to the "Hot Rod" guys but I, like you, wanted a safe towing enhancement. I finally bought a Juice based on my gut since there wasn't much quantifiable towing data I could find.

Now I think I know why real data is so lacking. 1) The seat of the pants launch power in the 4th level kind of takes away the logical side of brain function. I think much of the postings are based on this gut level response. I read the towing posts praising the ability to stay in OD while pulling heavy loads uphill at 70MPH.
Some were doing this without gauges. No info. on EGTs except I assume their DMax didn't melt.
2) Early versions of the software make it impossible to verify what power level you are in.
All performance data depends on knowing with certainty what level you're running. Edge recommends towing in level 1 or 2 because of EGT and Trans slippage issues.

Anyway, I decided to install ISSPRO gauges before I reached for the Juice. I initially had a release 3.0 and could never tell for sure what power level I was in. My first tow was a 9K 5th wheel from Los Angeles to Sacramento up I5 over the Grapevine. I found towing anywhere around the legal limit in CA the truck never came out of OD with very little throttle, but my EGT's jumped quickly above 1250 pre turbo. When I forced a downshift, the EGT's dropped, but I was almost immediately launched to 70+ mph. As soon as the pedal was backed off, the Allison dropped back to OD and the cycle repeated. Not my idea of comfortable towing. I now believe I was in level 3 or 4 and had too much power.

My chip has just been updated to Ver 3.61c and has confirmation capability. I have set the levels to 4 for normal and 2 for T/H and will be towing the same 5'er to Yosemite at 8,500ft this weekend. I'm anxous to see what the gauges read this time as well as the shifting issues. MPG isn't a high priority for me right now, but it seems roughly the same.

So even though I've towed with the Juice and can verify the gobs of torque and lack of downshifting, there are tradeoffs. You are absolutely right to consider the other factors like exhaust temps. I can tell you I don't regret buying the Juice and feel I can now work things out.

Edge recommends having gauges when using the Juice and I wholeheartedly second that, particularly for towing. You can definitely hurt your engine on heavy uphill tows, especially if you can't verify the level you're in.

The GM engineers did a great job, even though there's lots of B#$*@&ng on the boards about the downshifts, etc. Towing stock, the EGT's sometimes go right to the red but never go over. I don't know how they did it, but don't count on the same with a high performance setup.

Good luck.

[SoCalDMAX]

Wiley,

Great post, there's no reason at all to flame you - and I'd like to add something. I've seen 1425* pre-turbo blasting up a short hill, unloaded. I'm not going to tell anyone what a safe EGT is. Everyone has a different comfort zone, and I'd listen to someone with towing experience over myself any day.

Personally, I would feel comfortable with the Juice on, towing in 5th at anything below 1250*. I agree with you, I believe it's possible to hit 1250* or maybe higher towing with a completely stock truck. I'm theorizing that given identical circumstances, the exhaust system has more effect on EGTs than the Juice on level 2. Would you agree?

Do you have a 4" exhaust on it? The only reason I ask is that I've heard a lot of people discuss a 4" exhaust and say it doesn't add power in itself, but allows other mods to be used and helps keep EGTs lower in the process.

I'm looking forward to seeing your results this weekend on the Grapevine. I've driven it numerous times in cars, but I've no idea what % grade it is.

I'm guessing the way your truck runs, it takes a lot of the "white knuckle" out of going up the Grapevine, eh? ;)

Edit: I've re-read your post 3 times now... any report on smoke levels from a CA truck? I'm still curious about that, if you could keep an eye out for it. Have a safe trip!

Regards, Steve

[ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: SoCalDMAX ]</p>

[Wiley]

SoCalDMAX,
Well, I feel better. Never know being a newbie what the "temp. of the water" is on these boards.
Everyone here seems very civilized and I've certainly learn a lot by "lurking" here.

I've done most upgrades I've read of that seem to make sense to me for what I use my truck for. My exhauset is stock. I'm leaving it 'till last based on the posts of the minimal performance gains and limited EGT reductions. I hear you may get 50 degrees going to 4". Definitely a possiblilty for the future.

To answer your "smoke" question, yes it does put out soot when you first mash the pedal down. At speed nothing is noticaeable. Not objectionable to me.

[Andy L]

Thanks much for the replies. Wiley, your info was especially useful... exactly the type of info I was looking for. It sounds like you can tow with the juice at levels 1 or 2 but you need to keep an eye on the EGT and adjust your driving to keep the numbers in line. I have just sold my 26' toyhauler and my combined gross vehicle weight was approx. 16,600 (scaled.) Unfortunately, I installed my gauges right after I sold my trailer, so, I don't have any base line numbers to work from. Although I believe I have read elsewhere in this forum that pre-turbo EGTs should not go higher than 1250, I don't know how accurate this info is. I'm looking at buying a new 5th wheel toyhauler in the 35' range - this will probably bump my GCVW up about 3,000 or so. I would like to be able to go up the hills with my new trailer at the same speed as with my old trailer. Hence, my desire for more power. At least that is what I tell my wife... ha ha. Has anybody heard any inside information from Banks as to when they will be coming out with their own computer box... and not just what the salesmen say... it would be great to have some accurate information. All kidding aside, Banks has a great reputation for producing power enhancing products that can be used while towing, without the risk of powertrain damage. I'm sure the power levels will be lower than those offered by Juice, but it should be power that you can reliably tow with.
A note to Wiley... Any problems with setting codes? I also live in CA (Redlands.) I am also considering buying a Weekend Warrior SLC 3505 - are you happy with yours?

Sorry for the long winded, rambling post.
Thanks again.
Andy

[mark45678]

I would like to add my .02! for those of you that have not got to drive a juiced dmax your missing out! the real world seat of the pants drive tell me that there are HUGE increase of torque from 1800-2700 rpms! I find my self being very happy useing level 2 for most driveing and mileage has incrased about 1.3 mpg due to the fact that juice changes the timeing ! I am sure if I could drive slower I would see in the 19mpg range but at 85mph I see 16.8 to 17.1 all the time!

[Wiley]

Just got back from my tow to Yosemite. I had Juice Ver 3.61c programmed to level 4 normal and level 2 T/H. I had some trouble getting the original programming set but Brett at Edge was very helpful and it went like a charm using his instructions. The confirmation is great.

Anyway, I got to test it over a long weekend towing my 9k Weekend Warrior toyhauler with my Harley in the back. Towed to Tuollome Meadows above Yosemite at 8,300 ft. Some long winding 4-6 percent grades. Speed averages 35 to 45 MPH limit. A real test IMHO and I towed easily past the posted limit when I wanted.

Wow, what a joy towing in Level 2. I don't think I was ever there before. The truck pulls very strong, holds any speed and the EGT's look essentially comparable to stock! I saw a few occasions where the temps went to 1350 for a short time, but not scary fast.

Some things to note.

Although the folks at Edge did a great job getting Level 2 to tow safely, you still need gauges for towing. Everytime you turn the engine off, you have to remember to put it back in T/H mode. If you don't the EGT's spike very quickly.

Shifting - The truck does not hold OD in tough towing and will downshift, but much less than stock. I like the downshift as it seems to keep the temps down. The trans does not shift aimlessly back and forth and definitely holds OD much longer. Only once or twice did it go to 3rd. Like I said, tough towing. I felt in control of the shifting. I could easily downshift when I wanted and let up to get an upshift. You can't get better than that.

Smoke - Above 4,000 ft the truck will smoke considerably on acceleration under Level 2 towing and in Level 4 unloaded. I didn't disconnect the Juice or try other levels. It surprised me that elevation affected it so much being highly computer controlled as it is. Once I got back below 4,000 minimal smoking and only on hard acceleration. Not annoying to me.

In T/H the progressive braking downshift can be annoying particularly to 3500 RPM on Priest grade. A slight throttle press would make it upshift to 4th. I love the braking help. Again I felt I could control the shifting.

The more you tow with this, the better you get the feel of using all the power. The only time I had to slow down was for the tight turns and the slow cars!

The Edge is a great towing enhancement when used properly. Level 2 is incredibly strong particularly on takeoff. Really incredible.

Weekend Warrior LE3105- I am happy with the Warrior. It tows and looks great behind the DMax. It's a little bigger than I wanted, but great for haulin' the Harleys around. It'll make Sturgis a lot more comfortable. By the way, I got it through an Internet sales company in LA at much less than I could find locally. Man, I thought the premium on the DMax was high!