View Full Version : Realistic tow weight ?
I find myself in the market for a new fifth wheel. Can my completely stock D/A extended cab short bed pull a 14000 pound, 38' fifth wheel? Will I be putting undue strain on the D/A systems? If the answer is yes what is a realistic weight to pull for a fifth wheel? Please set me on the right (safe) course.
Thanks
john2
SoCalDMAX
09-21-2002, 20:50
Yes, it could tow up to 15,700lbs according to GM. I wouldn't recommend taking it to the max for safety, handling and fuel economy reasons.
IIRC, a member here bought a 5th wheel and asked his wife to stock it up with food, linens, etc. It towed great, went up the hills no problem and just for giggles went over some scales. It weighed something like 6,000lbs more than he anticipated! Moral of the story: we (guys) don't always (usually don't) have control of the final weight. There are some really luxurious trailers out there that weigh in at 10,000-12,000lbs. I've heard rave reviews of the Titanium line by Glendale RV, due to their quality, price, layout and handling.
This is all JMHO and is based on what I've read here and on the RV forums, not owning a trailer myself.
Regards, Steve
bluenote
09-22-2002, 06:51
Yes your completely stock D/A combo can pull this 5er.
No you are not going to cause undue strain on the D/A systems.
HOWEVER, you are going to be WAY over weight for the 2500HD chassis.
I wouldn't hesitate to pull that 5er with a 3500, but personally feel you are pushing it with the 2500HD. With the 5er set-up, a pretty decent percentage of the weight (usually around 20%) is carried by the king pin. It would take a truck with close to 3,000 pound payload capacity to handle a 14,000 pound 5er. Again, your drivetrain can handle it, since that's no different in the 2500HD and the 3500. I'd just be afraid that the rear of the truck is too far overloaded and it would lead to problems with items other than the drivetrain.
Bobcat698
09-22-2002, 07:36
OK, here is my $.02.
We have a 38' Gooseneck Horsetrailer that wieghs in empty at about 9,000lbs. Fully loaded is 16,000-18,000lbs.
Last fall, we took the trailer out to Colorado with our Chevy 2500 6.0L 5 Speed. We figured the trailer weighed in at 15,000lbs.
The back of the truck sunk 2 1/4". We pulled it all the way out there without much of a problem, usually screamin along in 4th gear @3000RPM.
If that truck could pull it, I have no doubt the Duramax will have NO problem with it.
We hooked the trailer to our new Duramax yesterday & the truck sat right about level, I put a level on the box & it was nearly perfect.
The trailer was empty for the most part.
Give it a try! If you have good enough trailer brakes I don't think you will have that much of a problem.
Garrett
Bobcat698
09-22-2002, 07:39
Take a look at this thread: I have a bunch of pictures posted in it & a few show the trailer hooked up to the truck:
http://advancedlubetech.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=000289
Copy & paste :rolleyes:
Garrett
I think it would be no problem for you. You don't need a 3500 either just to wear out two extra tires. I have a 2001 Chevy HD 2500 ext.cab shortbox that pulls my pulling tractor just fine. The 30' gooseneck is 8000lbs and the tractor is 12,500-16,000 depending on the class. So 20,500 to 24,000lbs is the load and I can go 70-75mph when I want blowing past Cumminses and pses when leaving a pull with my stock d-max. The camper will suck more wind than my tractor but I think you will be fine. In 90 degree weather truck runs 210 and the tranny runs 200 pulling the tractor. I can not belive how sturdy this truck feels with the gn on it and how well it stops with the disc brakes and the Allison downshifting. If it was not an Allison I would not have ever gotten an automatic. I would not want to haul my tractor in the mountians in Montana or Wyoming all the time but if it had to it could. I live in Wisconsin mostly flat but some hills and that is where it realy shines next to a ford or dodge. Even with the cattle trailer at 18,000lbs and 25lbs in my air bags the truck does not get thrown around with live wieght.
Jackmchome
09-22-2002, 14:44
I tow a 38ft 5er with 2700lbs of pin weight. Total weight @ 15000. I pulled over a year with no helper devices used. As I have a reg cab long box, I have had a launch shudder around 10mph. I added air bag boosters to the rear axle and lift the bed 1/2 inch after connecting to the trailer. No more shudder!!. DO weigh the whole mess, one axle at a time, after you have the rig you want and make sure you do not exceed the 6084lbs rating of the rear axle. Go for it!! MHO
I have a 4500lb 22' gooseneck and a 6000lb 25'gooseneck and we put 2 bobcats on them at the same time and pull them with no problem. 8000lb's a piece plus trailer 20000lbs+. If you put a taller tire on your truck besides stock you better buy a power adder cause it kills the truck pulling wise.
Mark
SHOPMAN426
09-22-2002, 16:08
John2, The answer is yes you can pull that much weight. But you need to take into account all the extra weight in cargo that you will be hauling. The bigger the trailer the more you can carry. My father has a Travel Supreme 36' 5ver. He started out pulling with a Ford F250/460. He would weigh in around 25,000 lbs. Thats alot of weight to try to stop if your trailer brakes fail. Granted our Duramax and allison settup is much stronger, but it is still a light duty truck. He also got tired of going up steep grades at 25 miles an hour. He's now stepped up to a International crewcab with a 530 inline six. This rig was made for these monster 5vers and is much safer. The motor turns out 300 hp. and 800 foot pounds of torque. The Allison is a six speed and works as ours does. The thing he likes best, is he never drops below 45 mph going up any hill! :D :D :D
SHOPMAN426,
Mike.
There will not be any problem pulling, we just completed a 18,000 mile round trip from Florida out to the west coast and back across the top of the US, plus all the riding around while the trailer was at a RV Park. No problems.
The only thing I would recommend, is to see if you can have the new electric over hydraulic
brakes installed on your new trailer. Some of the manuafacturers now have them as an option. Newmar for one. They are a HD disc brake set up and work much better than any of the electric brakes. You might want to look up (ausco.com) they are one of the manufacturers of these brake systems.
I forgot to mention, we have a 33' Kountry Star by Newmar that weighs 12,500 empty. You know how the women love to load them up, so we were almost 15,500 loaded.
Enjoy your new fifth wheel, but get the best brakes you can.!!!!!!
I've been away for the weekend and just read the posting. Thank you all for the helpful information....I knew I could count on the forum to give me good information.
john2
I have a 02 DMAX 2500 I pull a CAT backhoe 4X4 (17000) and 100 gallon diesel tank in the bed way over weight but no trouble 30000 miles.
Juice 4.3 just got it upgraded from 3.something
sonofagun
09-23-2002, 18:43
I too am thinking of going to a 5er. No one really answered my question in all of this:
Does anyone know the max kingpin weight that a 2500HD can handle? Shortbed, crew cab. I know you can't overload the 6000# rear axle but I'd rather look at trailers that my rig will handle safely than weigh on after it's on the truck and weighs too much. I'm thinking 2000# on the trailer as it comes from the factory is max when you add all the rest of the stuff. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Bob
Bobcat698
09-23-2002, 18:50
Well, the way I understood it, the 2500HD is rated for 2500 pounds & the 3500 dually is rated for 3500 pounds king pin weight.
Thats just me though.
The only way you will know what the max kingpin weight can be is to weight the truck with full fuel, the number of people carried in the truck, hitch installed, and all the other things in the truck bed (tool box etc) that you would normally carry when on the road. The scaled weight is then subtracted from 9200 so the result is the max your pin can be. In my case, 2500hd D/A long box 2wd crew cab,my steer axle is 4000# drive is 3340# for a total of 7340# My max kingpin is 9200 - 7340= 1860# That is with full fuel, 2people, hitch and tool box. When I scaled the rig hitched my steer was 4140# drive 4980# trailer axle 8040# gross 17160# I am 80# under my truck gross. (Just scaled last week)
hogbreth
09-24-2002, 10:26
Pulled a 40ft 5er 12000 miles this summer that weighed in at 16,000 lbs. I used a 3500 GMC D/A because GM says no more then 2500#'s of tongue weight on a 2500HD. The truck pulled it fine in stock trim but it ran in 4th alot and the fan noise was unbearable. Half way through the trip I added the Juice to the truck and in level 1 towing the trailer became alot easier. Mileage with the juice was 10.5, prior to that was about 8.5. The improvement was because I was able to run in overdrive 90% of the time with the juice.
billnourse
09-24-2002, 19:31
john2,
I have a crew 4x4 short and pull a 32 ft. Holiday Rambler with l slide out (aopprox)11,000. here are my weights: Front:4240, Rear: 5640, Trailer axle 9,560. Total: 19,440. My gvw is 9880, which is 680 lbs over GVW for the pickup, but under for each axle. I am guessing that you will be considerably higher than that.
Can you pull it? :Yes, Can you stop it? With good trailer brakes Yes. If something goes wrong will there be warranty or legal issues because of gross overloading? Maybe.
The chassis of the 2500 and the 3500 are the same except for springs and tires, so there should be no undue stress on the running gear, but your tires and springs might take a beating.
Check some of the RV forums, ther are a lot of different opinions there.
Bill
John2, i pull a 36 foot Cedar Creek 5th, pin weight 2700 pounds trailer weight 14,000 pounds no problem at all have 9000 towing miles now.
Pizza Man
09-27-2002, 11:45
Get a dually for that length!
I have been looking for a well made 5th wheel that our 2500 D/A can pull safely. The weight thing is a hard thing to get around. Most well made 5 th wheels are also heavy! We travel Mexican roads in the winter time and they are a test for any rig. We have looked at HitchikerII ls, and Sunnybrook, both well made rigs. they seem to fit the bill, but hard to have all the "things" that we want. My wife has a must on her list of a W/D a real + in Mexico. There are few rigs under 35' with this feature. We happen on a dealer that carrys Travel Supreme Express. Well made and also heavy. The 31 with rear living area, a must in Mexico, fits well. They will build them any way that you want them. They will build it with 3 axles. Double the braking! Also increases the GVWR to an amount way over the 22000 lb total of the Dmax. Have any of you had any experience with the change in hitch weight by adding a 3rd. axle? All daelers will tell you that you can pull anything they handle with our rigs, the truth lies in the capacity of the Dmax, what is printed on the door, and commom sence.
I have been looking for a well made 5th wheel that our 2500 D/A can pull safely. The weight thing is a hard thing to get around. Most well made 5 th wheels are also heavy! We travel Mexican roads in the winter time and they are a test for any rig. We have looked at HitchikerII ls, and Sunnybrook, both well made rigs. they seem to fit the bill, but hard to have all the "things" that we want. My wife has a must on her list of a W/D a real + in Mexico. There are few rigs under 35' with this feature. We happen on a dealer that carrys Travel Supreme Express. Well made and also heavy. The 31 with rear living area, a must in Mexico, fits well. They will build them any way that you want them. They will build it with 3 axles. Double the braking! Also increases the GVWR to an amount way over the 22000 lb total of the Dmax. Have any of you had any experience with the change in hitch weight by adding a 3rd. axle? All daelers will tell you that you can pull anything they handle with our rigs, the truth lies in the capacity of the Dmax, what is printed on the door, and commom sence.
John 2 , Broker here!
The rear end ratio is the most important option to pull.Pick the Highest numerical value avilable from the dealer order book.
MMLDMAX I hear what you are saying about weight and quality units. We just puchased a 36 ft. 3 slider 5th wheel that weights in at 12,300 dry. Its a new SunnyBrook product called MobleSuites by DoubleTree designed for fulltimers. I can E mail you some pictures if you like. Believe me my wife has been in them all and in her opinion the DoubleTree will meet or beat the best of the them. This is our 4th SunnyBrook product and they all have had a W/D, she would not be without them!
I would not worry about it. Just remember how much "mass" you have. There is but one little wire for the breaks. Always keep that in your mind. Our trucks can stop that much weight ..... but very very slowly :eek: The truck will handle much more than 15k using a fith-wheel. I have pulled 17,500 lbs of weight( 5 pallets of tar roofing shingels ) :eek: on my 3,000 lb trailer. That means that I have pulled 20,500 lbs off my stock hitch!!! The only thing that suffered any dammage was the rear 7K axel on the trailer....it's uh little bent. :D
------> Burner
CntrlCalDmax
10-02-2002, 18:29
Hey EXPSD,
I'd like to see pictures of your Sunnybrook. I have a 30' and thinking about upgrading.
Thanks, leot@corpair.com
Broker .......If I'm reading you right....my rear axle ratio is 3.73. As far as I knew all the autmatic D/A came that way.
If this is the ratio you are talking about what does a 3.73 mean in terms of towing a fifth wheel?
The help and information from everybody on this forum is awesome!!
CanadaKev
10-02-2002, 21:23
john2,
My father-in-law has your identical truck(different color). Completely stock.
He pulls a 35' Okanagan (triple slide), 12,500 empty. At least 15K loaded. The truck handles it like a dream! He was very impressed! Keep it in T/H. The only upgrade I have tried to encourage him to make, is an exhaust brake(just saves the trailer brakes a bit). But he's stubborn ;)
Kev
john2--
There's a website www.irv2.com and it has lots of good info for you. Look for a post from Ken Lenger. In his signature he has a link to an article he wrote about REALISTIC, SAFE towing weights.(That's what you originally asked about)
It's going to take issue with a lot of the posts here about how much can be towed safely. I ain't flamin anybody for their heavy loads. Just think you should look at Lenger's info.
zip
millietom
10-25-2002, 08:10
I have a 2500HD Duramax crew cab. My rear axle weighs 2820 lbs. with my 50 gallon aux tank full.
So I figure I could have 3000 lbs on the pin and would be within the limits of the tires. My pin is closer to 2000 lbs. I like not being close to the tire limit. I also use air bags to keep everything level. About 10 lbs. in the air bags is all it takes.
I would like juice when I can afford it just so I could pull in OD and cruise.
Tom
john2,
when i was setting up my rig the key for me was to remember the gcwr (gross combination weight rating) of the truck. ihave a 3500 with a gcwr of 22,000 lbs. truck and trailer TOGETHER should not go over that. i'll admit, i'm conservative, but for some reason GM has said don't run over 22,000 combination weight. all these trucks can pull far more than they are rated for. the key question for me is whether they can STOP and be kept under CONTROL in normal and in adverse driving conditions (rough roads, cross winds, sudden lane changes, etc.) we have been full timers for almost 18 months now and have been out long enough to see some real scary rigs and accidents. in virtually all cases, unfortunate or tragic outcomes had nothing to do with the truck's ability to pull, they all resulted from the towing vehicle's INABILITY to stop or control the load that had been hitched to it. i have talked to a lot of guys who's rigs were clearly over their combination weight limit by thousands of pounds. most of the discussions revolve around power, torque, mileage, what mountain passes you have pulled in high gear, etc. nobody wants to talk about running over weight. before you buy, check with your insurance agent about how he will feel if you present a claim where you are liable and it can be shown that you were running over weight. call that local, hungry attorney to see how he'd like a case where someone hit you that was at fault and running 20% over weight. the decision on pulling is always yours--you decide when to start, how fast to accelerate, how fast to drive, etc. and if you don't get it done, you've lost nothing. the need to suddenly stop or take evasive action almost never starts with you. its a reaction to something else, and if you don't get it done, the potential for loss can be huge.
i have been stopped for truck inspection in one state and heard from another full timer that he had been stopped and weighed in california. i think we are only seeing the beginning of this. there are more and more of us out there and, collectively, we will eventually do enough stupid things to be brought on to the public's radar screen. if and when that happens, smokie won't be much interested in how much we think we can pull.
he'll look at the numbers. period.
don't want to throw cold water here, but in 50,000 miles in the past 18 months, the scariest things we have seen almost all involve rv's, driven probably by well meaning people out to enjoy life, but the bottom line at the time was that they were a menace to themselves and everyone around them.
flarsen
What do you haul to drive that much and is it pleasure or work?
Mike
walkerkd
10-29-2002, 12:53
i drive i 01 dmax 2500 hd and tow 24 980-1100 pound bales of hay three times a month for about 500 miles one way. have not had one problem todate. so a 15k travel trailer is no problem at all.
Millietom, your drive axle at 2820# with 50gals aux fuel got my attention. As per my signature my drive axle is 3140# with 5th hitch and empty tool box.
01F350SRW
10-29-2002, 21:39
Just for the record
my total weight last week on the weigh home on the big rig scales was 25,750 lbs. To say the least I received a citation. Anyways, the truck feels very stable, more so than my F350, remember neither is a dually, the 3500 springs are the only reason I would put that much weight on. The D/A combo doesn't strugle that much, as least not a much as my PSD, which has 4.10's out back, both are Auto's. Anyways, the struggling it does do is on take off, not much, but I'll fix that w/ 4.10's later in November.
I tow a CAT dozer and some heavy tools on a gooseneck by the way. A larger exhaust, prob a 5" for me will lower my kinda high egt's, I know it might be overkill for most, but not for my app, check out the Ford sig, I had a full 4" prior on it and replaced for a 5", another 200* drop for me. No performance mods for me, I need this truck under the most warranty and to last the longest it can last.
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