PCM and pricing...

[Alli-max]

Curiousity... I am REALLY interested in getting the reprogram, but not at that price!! Is this going to eventually be something that anybody can do? Maybe some program that John Kennedy or whoever will be able to do easily? I guess my question is how much do some of you think the price will drop?? Maybe it will turn into the old Power Play price wars.. :D :D

[Kennedy]

I seriously doubt that it will drop. The single level program is only $695, but the 3 level is $895. Some of the big names in gassers will come with their programs, but I seriously doubt any will compare to the level set by the current diesel fore-runners...

[GMC D-Max]

Besides, $895 seems a reasonable price (to me, anyway) for the performance gains you get, the adjustability, seamless integration, tire size reprogramming, NO SPEED LIMITER, and raised rev limiter. I mean, compare it to the price of a Juice or Duramaximiser which does alot less!?!

[Alli-max]

I know, I know... It is the technology and engineering you are paying for. The actual upgrade time is probably minutes, if not seconds. My question was if somebody out there actually figured out how to download and save then upload. AND NO... I am NOT asking for pirated software!! It usually happens though...

[c5dura]

Alli, check out these sites:

http://ls1edit.slowcar.net/

http://www.carputing.com/

I'm hoping this product will soon be available for the Duramax. The current version has not been tested with the duramax, but the interface and the general concept is exactly the same for the duramax as all the other engines that are currently supported.

You plug into you vehicle's PCM and load all the tables into your laptop, play with the values, and dump them back into the PCM.

The "play with the values" is the tricky part and most consumers leave that to the professionals. But more and more 'do-it-yourself' types are getting into the act, especially with message boards where you can discuss what parameters to change for reliable gains. You can even exhange files/tables with others online for free if you don't feel like messing with the values yourself.

[ndamico]

Alli-Max,

its funny your mentioned that, as i have worked with some bosch/siemens control units for BMW's and it doesn't seem like it should be all that hard to supply power signal to the ECM to download it. you're just reading an EEPROM and saving it to a file. TTS may do some type of copy protection, but i don't know. i think $895 is too steep for me, as it is ONLY software (plus the loader). granted there is R&D in there, but i think its too steep. what if i want to sell it, move it to another truck etc?

the price is similar on the Juice, but you get some hardware with it as well. To be honest i think a piggyback computer is better than reflashing your ECM. if you jack your ECM up, your hosed. Game over for the time being! if your Juice box dies, you can just remove it. Sorry to run off on a tanget, but i'm sure the time will come when ECM can be easily copied, just like DirecTV access cards, EEPROMs, etc. My buddy can download everything from his 2001 Vette, edit it in his computer and re-upload it to his car. I just wish we could do that with the Dmax.

[ndamico]

c5dura,

that's just what i was talking about!!! smile.gif ..you must have posted when i was writing mine!

[Alli-max]

that is nice c5... didnt know that was out there!

nda... MY THOUGHTS exactly. $900 for a reflash STINGS. Kinda like me selling you a pair of welding gloves for $100 / pair! I know, they might be special gloves that dont burn up, but my competitor is going to copy them and sell em for half price.

I understand that the Tech II cant see it has been reflashed, but... WHAT if you have a problem, and the guy at the service bay just reflashes it to be safe. Looks like you are BACK to the stock ECM. Maybe there is a warranty, maybe not.

[pullinpower]

Looks like you are trying to get more power there Alli-max :D Are you having second thoughts about racing me with your current set-up? ;) You know a steak dinner is on the line tongue.gif

Alli,I really like this reflashed adj.PCM from PPE.You should give them a try,great bunch of guys.

[ 09-20-2002: Message edited by: pullinpower ]</p>

[GMC-2002-Dmax]

Maybe I missed something but IIRC the TS Loader is KEYED to your VIN# and you can save the stock program and upload the newest on from TS. Then if you have a problem you can upload the stock program have warranty work done and then reload the TS program.

Is this right or wrong :confused:

Or are we talking about reflashing the stock ECM by sending it out to a company. :confused:

GMC ;)

[ 09-20-2002: Message edited by: GMC-2002-Dmax ]</p>

[pullinpower]

GMC 2002,PPE sent me their adjustable pcm to me and I returned my pcm to them. Swapped them out.

[c5dura]

GMC Dmax, I believe you're correct. The Power Loader is a unit you keep that will allow you to flip back and fourth between the stock program and the modified one.

I think you have to send it back to TTS if you want an updated program, which kinda sucks in this day and age where it would be so easy to pick up an updated program over the Internet, but I don't think the Power Loader will connect to your PC.

I also don't like how Steve locks the PCM so that it can't be read by programs such as LS1 Edit, but I can see why he does that. But it sucks if you move to another solution down the road (like LS1 Edit) and you can't read your own PCM unless you go back to stock first in which case you pretty much wasted the money you spent on the Power Loader in the first place.

Having said that, I feel the Power Loader probably is going to be the best option for a while for the Duramax until we can do our own programming.

[ndamico]

Our own programming where its going to be in the future. every engine has a sweet spot. its impossible to make one program that works 100% best for every engine. even though they are the same basic engine, some will work better tweaked slightly different from others, etc. i've seen 10 BMW E36 328i's get piggyback computers. all same engine, all manual tranny. each one took a slightly different amount of timing, fuel, etc to get the max power out of it. just like the juice box seems to work better on some people's truck than others. some people have zero problems, and set codes now and then.

it WILL be a while before any joe has the ability to edit his computer. and that's probably a good thing for some :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[c5dura]

ndamico, I fuly agree. The only way to ensure the best possible results is by tuning on a dyno. You can dial-in a real good baseline from listening to what works for others though.

I'm still amazed at how much power potential is hidden within the Duramax by manipulating timing, pulse width and pressure on an otherwise stock engine.

I had to drop $10k into the engine on my vette to go from 310 rwhp to 418 rwhp. Heads were ported and polished, new valve train (good for 7000 rpm redline), cam swap, LS6 intake, ported MAF, cold air intake, long tube headers, aftermarket exhaust. On top of that, a lot of time was spend dyno tuning and doing autotap runs and then contacting Agostino Racing Engines who did the engine work for new PCM updates based on my dyno results/Autotap numbers.

The stock bottom end of the LS1 engine is good for about 500rwhp, which is about 200 more than stock. I wonder what what the limits are on the duramax? I'm sure it will be a couple of years before we know. The first order of business will be to get the Allison beefed up as that appears to be the weak point at the moment.

I suspect the Duramax Diesel Power Project being conducted here will answer some if not all of those questions.

I'm rambling, I'll stop now...

[SoCalDMAX]

C5dura,

Interesting info. Isn't the newest Vette producing 405hp? I wonder how they're doing it, I don't know much about that engine.

I think the Dmax is capable of producing and safely handling a LOT of power. IIRC, it's the only current diesel with a forged and nitrided crank and forged/frozen/cracked rods. All of the design info I've seen indicated it was designed with very few compromises.

It will be interesting to see how much power can be made before somebody breaks something internally, and what actually breaks.

Regards, Steve

[hdmax(mike)]

I agree that is to tooo high priced. and from what was stated on here acouple weeks ago, it does not store the stock programing. But may in the future. And any and all upgrades cost extra.

To me that is a rip off. Besides all of that, If you have to take the truck in for a computer update. The after market program is gone, and if you reinstall it you lost the update the dealer just put in. Sounds like a real pain.

[Alli-max]

The LS1 engine is in the Camaro SS now, not the Vette IIRC. 405 HP is out of the Z06, but I THINK it went up a bit.

Interesting note on that..... My bro in law has a 01 'decafinated' Vette, and we had a race one night. He gave me a 1-2 car head start. He finally passed me at 93 MPH!!! Not bad for a juiced truck with a balcony on the front end. :D :D

[Kennedy]

No the stock programming is NOT kept, nor available in any of these loaders. MAYBE future versions will do this, but not current. This was miscommunicated some time ago, and the correction was made...

[pullinpower]

Alli,was that vette a stick or an automatic?

[c5dura]

Yes, the Z06 has 405hp, that that is at the crank, not the rear wheels. My vette is at 492 hp at the crank (418/.85).

The Z06 is producing 405 hp from a better air intake design (the OEM was very restricted), better flowing heads, intake and a different cam profile. The compression is also slightly higher. There are a few other tweaks here and there, but that is it in a nutshell.

Alli, did your brother in law spin a lot on take off? A stock vette (6 speed) can do 2 sec 60 ft times with a good driver and run the quarter in about 13.2 secs @ 107 mph.

I run street tires on mine (325's) and I'm having a hard time hooking up but still manage 12.1 secs @ 122mph in the quarter. If I ran slicks, I'd be in the 11's for sure, but my mph probably would not go up much if at all.

c5dura

[Heartbeat Hauler]

I'm thinkin' that $895 is way to high for a reflash of the PCM. I stated here a few months back that there are guys reprogarmming B-Body (Caprice & Impala SS)PCMs for a 100 bucks. Also, if you buy the interface cable (95 bucks) the guy will ship you a disk free with any requested upgrades. Hang in there some enterprising propellerhead will show up with a reasonable solution. :D
JP

[pullinpower]

Well lets see edge wants another $300 over the $795 for the 125Hp box and PPE wants $895 for the 168Hp adjustable pcm with no speed limiter,going to spend alot of money either way,guess its a toss-up :D :D

[mackin]

pullinpower,

Isn't this the price for 168 Hp =&gt;$1,640.00.

Pcm reflash + the duramaximizer to get that enhancement????


MAC

[SoCalDMAX]

Mac, I think the ECM reflash is supposed to give 168hp by itself and they claim the Maximizer can give another 50hp on top of that.

Keep in mind this is crank hp, while the Juice is advertised as rwhp, more like 115 at the crank. The new "concentrated" Juice (haha) if really 35hp stronger is making more like 150 crank hp.

What I don't understand is how is the Allison keeps from going into limp mode with the ECM reflash and maximizer combo. 218 extra hp should be well into clutch slipping territory.

Regards, Steve

[mackin]

Steve,

Ya your right...That web site for some reason is way :confused: .......

More combos then an Italian deli......

168 Race PCM and the duramaximizer will add 50 to get 218, but yet it can offer 0/100 hp stand alone or something like that see??????But that combo will set you back $1640 respectively......


MAC

[mtomac]

300 stock hp + 168 PPE PCM + 50 duramaximizer = 518

PPE website says 410 @ rear wheels so there is a 108 hp drivline loss.

[pullinpower]

Mackin the pcm does give 168Hp alone + 50 with the maximiser,yes it moves out REAL strong second gear rubber every time.I turn the maximiser down right before the 4-5 shift then I turn it back up on my way to 115mph. Im ready to run a juiced truck to see how badly I outrun one :D

[mackin]

Micheal,

Where did you get the number 410 @ , on their site???
Anywho the stock Dmax Allison dynos at 240 RWHP......So I hope they don't fudge the numbers like the good Doctor did ,does.......Unless it's all flywheel numbers......

Pullinpower,

Can you turn the duramaximizer up all the way?? Or it won't take that much?? Come on give it to me.... How much rubber in second???? My dually will chirp second Juice in 90 with 30" of plant out back in T/H......If it were stock 215's I'd lay a patch......LOL... If I start out in the painted cross walk off idle ,look out ........


MAC :eek:

[ 09-24-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[mtomac]

http://www.duramaximizer.com/

"New up to 410 rwhp"

@ bottom of page

if a stock Dmax is 240 rwhp then PPE's PCM & duramaximizer adds 170 rwhp

[ 09-24-2002: Message edited by: Micheal Tomac ]</p>

[mackin]

That explains it I was looking on the :confused: PPE site ....
I'd like to see one ran on a dyno .......
Bottom line is 410 @ $1640......
Or 365@ $995........Well let's not get started.... Just assuming current pricing plus $300 which may be high depending on dealer......


Man is it living up now !!!!!!!!!

MAC :D

[pullinpower]

Mac it turns'em over pretty good in 2nd gear,just depends on how much fuel I have in her :D This truck really gets with it now.

[GadgetBoy]

Hey Guys,
Just finished a flurry of e-mails with Ken Kelly over at carputing.com. He said they are working on programming for the 8.1 but not the DMax or the Allison! I suggested he wander by and have a look at the potential market and then maybe rethiink his choice.
John

[c5dura]

GadgetBoy, yea that's what Ken also stated on the LS1-Edit mailing list recently.

Check out this link:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=386879

Once the page comes up, do a search on 'duramax' and you will see that support is coming for the duramax in about a month. The price is right too at $425.

This product, the PREDATOR, is kinda like the Power Loader in that is comes with a custom program that you load into your PCM. The really cool thing is that it also allows you to modify various parameters, AND it will also perform Tech II/OBD_II functions.

C5dura

[mtomac]

From PPE's website:

14.1 @ 93mph with the Duramaximizer and PS2000 propane, with Hoosier Drag slicks. All else stock including exhaust.

14.5 @ 96mph with the Duramaximizer and PS2000 propane on stock tires, and exhaust.

I wonder when they will have some 1/4 mile times with the PCM + Duramaximizer

[pullinpower]

Not long micheal,if it ever quits raining over here I would like to take my truck to memphis motorsports to see what she'll run.I dont know why the boys at PPE dont post their #'s on the pcm + maximiser.Your gonna be surprized,my truck pulls hard all the way threw the 1/4 mile,not as hard as my B/B 69 camero but pulls pretty hard :D I would say high 13's or 14 flat.

[big dipper]

Micheal Tomac,
Look at the truck, it is a 2wd regular cab. Considerably lighter than most of the trucks that are juiced on this page. Your truck is probably very close to 7k and you ran a 14.71! ;) Not to shabby, no just imagine if your truck was comparable.....

[REC06]

hey pullinpower,
is it still raining or are you too busy roasting tires to tell us what is going on with that new pcm+duramaximizer set up.

[pullinpower]

I have just been busy building homes with the low interest rates and the bond money,seems like everyone is wanting a new home :D Performance is great,I find myself looking for someone to race all the time now ;) Hope to get to the track before long.