HELP .. $512 fuel filter change problem [Archive]

JEBar

12-27-2002, 15:55

Earlier this morning I changed my D'max's fuel filter for the 3rd time. When I attempted to unscrew the vent screw, its head rang off leaving the threaded part stuck in the housing. From that I learned the following .. 1) the vent screw is made of plastic, the part threaded into the housing is hollow .. 2) according to my GM parts man it is NOT sold separately and the cost of the entire assembly is $512.00 ... 3) my response was Bull S**t, couldn't measure it exactly but the screw is a 10mm x 1.5 x very short. What I have done is found a metal bolt, cut it off, fitted it with an o-ring and screwed it in place, seems to be holding but long term results are uncertain.

Need help ===> Does anyone know if my dealership is correct or if the plastic bolt can be purchased separately? Does anyone know of an alternate source for such a bolt? Does anyone know of an alternate solution? Has anyone else had this type of trouble? ..... Jim

Flyboy

12-27-2002, 21:05

I lost mine once and was told the same thing. I also made one out of a bolt and O ring. After all that, I found the plastic one. I see no reason why the bolt would not be better than the plastic plug. I keep the one I made for a spare. Their must be a source for the plug somewhere. Hope that helps.

bearman

12-27-2002, 21:08

Are you sure he wasen't quoting Canadian funds :D :D :D
Good luck with your soluition
Cheers
Bear

chuntag95

12-27-2002, 21:47

You would figure with a plastic screw, they would have a box of them under the counter and sell them for a buck, but $512! :eek: Thanks for the info, I will baby that screw more now knowing that. The General should blush over that one. redface.gif

Oongawah

12-28-2002, 01:26

Blush? Sounds more like they're laughing all the way to the bank. What do they do when one of their techs breaks one? I'm so leary about taking mine into the stealer for service that I do all my work now. This is sad. Happy New Year! Chuck.

Kennedy

12-28-2002, 09:41

A while back I thought I would order a new mount for R&D, but hit the same $500+ hurdle. Not in the plans any more...

kerry witherspoon

12-28-2002, 12:14

take the plastic one to your favorite machine shop cost me 11 dollars to have 2 spare made

Dawg

12-28-2002, 16:29

JEBar,

I had my truck into my dealer a couple months ago for some body work. While it was there, I supplied them with oil, oil filter and fuel filter so they could do the change for me once the body work was done. My wife got the phone message so I could not hear it for myself, but I believe they broke the bleeder screw as well. They got it replaced. I think they got it from a source within 30 miles of the dealership. You can contact them and ask about the source. It is Gamblin Chev in Enumclaw. There info as well as a contact is posted under the Good Dealer/Service section. Talk to Dave. Tell him you were refered via the DP. I don't work for them. They have always given me excellent service.

JEBar

12-28-2002, 17:42

Dawg .... from your statement, "I believe they broke the bleeder screw as well. They got it replaced. I think they got it from a source within 30 miles of the dealership. You can contact them and ask about the source. It is Gamblin Chev in Enumclaw. There info as well as a contact is posted under the Good Dealer/Service section. Talk to Dave. Tell him you were refered via the DP." ...I am highly interested in contacting these folks but an not sufficiently skilled to figure out how to do so from the info you provided .... any additional assistance would be greatly appreciated ... Jim

More Power

12-28-2002, 18:40

The 6.5 fuel filter assembly is made by Stanadyne, and while the little bits and pieces of this assembly aren't available from GM, each individual part is available from Stanadyne.

I suspect the same situation exists with the Duramax fuel filter assy. At the present time, I don't know who the fuel filter assembly supplier is. Does anyone know?

If the part can't be located through normal channels, we'll investigate getting a supply of the air-bleed screws from a machinist or fabricator, and make them available - for cheap.

MP

Dawg

12-28-2002, 19:01

JEBar, I'll check it out Monday and let you know. Meanwhile here is the email address for Dave, he is the service manager. Be sure you let him know you are a member of the DP.

dave@gamblinmotors.com (copy and paste)

Dawg

12-28-2002, 19:05

More Power,

Thanks! I would like to get a couple spares for myself now that this topic has come up.

Spoolin'It

12-28-2002, 23:57

More Power,

Parker/Racor(www.racor.com)is the OE supplier for the DMAX unit. I agree that they should be able to supply a bleed screw(or other parts) separate like Stanadyne did for its assemblies.
I suspect that it may be similiar to the bleed screw found on other Racor units. Diesel Injection Service or another Racor dealer may be of some help in checking on this one since the plastic is only going to get worse with age.
For the guys fabricating a metal one, be careful that it doesn't weld itself to the alum. housing and strip out all the threads after its been in there a while.

JEBar

12-29-2002, 06:42

More Power .... would really appreciate your assistance in finding a source for these air-bleeder-screws, Spoolin'it's comments about the affects of regular metal and aluminum are well taken ... I'd bet that once word gets around, quiet a few guys will be wanting to purchase some spares

Dawg ... will hold off e-mailing him until Tuesday to give you a chance to contact him, thank you again for your help ..... Jim

[ 12-29-2002: Message edited by: JEBar ]

bryantch

12-29-2002, 07:57

If a brass screw is used there will be little chance for corrosion.

ram/tx

12-29-2002, 08:19

More Power---I will want to buy a couple of spares if you find them. As said before, the plastic will get old and brittle sooner or later, an at over $500, for a complete unit you can probably sell as many of the vent screws as you can get ahold of. Please keep us informed.

dmaxstu

12-29-2002, 09:10

Just make sure you put Permatex anti-seize lubricant on the metal bolt and don't cross thread it and it should be fine. In 25 years of owning VW bugs I have never seized a sparkplug in their aluminum heads using that procedure. Now that I know that the bleeder screw can break I might even use the anti-seize on the plastic one next time.Stu

[ 12-29-2002: Message edited by: dmaxstu ]

JEBar

12-29-2002, 14:27

dmaxstu ... question: the hole for the vent screw is located right beside the line that takes the "filtered" fuel from the filter to the injectors ... could use of an anti-seize contaminate the fuel and harm the injectors? ... Jim

More Power

12-29-2002, 14:52

I'll send an email to Brent at Diesel Injection Service, asking if he can get the part from Racor. If so, you, me and everyone else could get them from DIS. They can't be very expensive.

MP

dmaxstu

12-30-2002, 13:40

Thanks Morepower I have to order another filter soon and I'll check with DIS at that time about getting a spare bleed screw.
JEBAR
I doubt what little of the anti-seize would be enough to cause contamination.On second thought since it is a bleed screw it might just flush out any anti-seize lubricant we might try to put in there anyway. So back to the drawing board. Stu

Dawg

12-30-2002, 14:44

JEBar and More Power,

The parts manager is doing some checking for me. He called GM and it is true that if the screw is lost or broken they have to order the entire fuel filter assembly. Neither he nor the service manager wanted to hear this. As stated earlier it is just a matter of time before they break one themselves. I believe the parts manager is going to make a contact at Stanadyne R&D to see if they can help him out. He is doing this for the dealership as well because they want to get a supply. I did learn that the drain petcock is the only part that you can get separately. Now I guess it is wait and see.

JEBar

12-30-2002, 16:29

Dawg ... appreciate the follow-up. Hopefully the combined efforts being made on this by More Power and you will come up with a solution that will help all of us. Jim

More Power

12-30-2002, 17:51

Brent at Diesel Injection Service can get/has the air-bleed screws.

Part # is RK 30818, and it sells for $3.11

1-800-658-9355

MP

FirstDiesel

12-30-2002, 18:19

Oh great and I just ordered from the 2 days ago. Let's see. $3.11 part, 6-10 bucks shipping. Bummer. :(

Oh well guess I'll just have to find more to buy from them soon! :eek:

ram/tx

12-30-2002, 18:36

Thanks More Power for your time and efforts on this subject. I will be ordering mine tomorrow. Boy this board is great. tongue.gif tongue.gif

JEBar

12-30-2002, 20:58

AMEN to all the praise :D .. will phone in an order for 3 tomorrow (if I order spares, I'll never lose or break another!!) .... Hopefully others will pick-up on this thread and be able to avoid the near heart attack I experienced when told I was in for a $500+ bill .... Jim

rtquig

12-31-2002, 08:13

I just ordered 3 of the bleed screws this morning (from Diesel Injection Service), along with a couple more filters. They were out of stock and should be in within 2 weeks.

[ 12-31-2002: Message edited by: rtquig ]

LanduytG

12-31-2002, 13:40

We will have a stainless steel replacement soon. The head will be slotted as well as knurled so you can get a hold of it easly.

Greg

MountainMax

12-31-2002, 13:57

To: GM
From: Diesel Page Forum Members and Administrators
Invoice:

The following invoice is for R&D related to the Duramax Engine.

Priceless: you can't afford us. However, if you listen to us and act upon our research, we won't charge you if you fix it first.

The Gang

JEBar

12-31-2002, 16:16

MountainMax ... understood :cool:

ordered 3 today from Diesel Injection Service, estimated delivery in two weeks, total cost $15 ... very happy :D to place this order and very thankful for the help in making it possible ... Jim

rtquig

12-31-2002, 19:55

Greg: Let us know when the stainless steel ones come in. They sound like the way to go. I would like to get one or two.

FirstDiesel

12-31-2002, 20:11

What about the fact that the housing is aluminum. Will there be a problem with the stainless and the aluminum in contact?? Must be a reason that GM used plastic??

Dawg

12-31-2002, 20:22

Thanks More Power, I'll be getting some spares as well.

LanduytG

01-01-2003, 04:48

Stainless and aluminum together are not a problem. GM used plastic because its CHEAP.

Greg

FirstDiesel

01-01-2003, 08:09

Thanks Greg

I was just wondering. I'll be in for a few when you get them ready.

Alli-max

01-02-2003, 09:32

quote from Firstdiesel: Oh great and I just ordered from the 2 days ago. Let's see. $3.11 part, 6-10 bucks shipping. Bummer.
Oh well guess I'll just have to find more to buy from them soon!

Still better than the dealership! Might should have bought some filters to help justify the cost.... I need a 3 pack of fuelies myself, so I guess I will throw in a valve or 2.

thanks for the legwork Jim!

LanduytG

01-02-2003, 11:55

We should have the stainless bleed screws in about a week to ten days. Again it will have a slut head and be knurled as well. This will last you a life time. Will have it in the new products section when they are available.
Greg

chuntag95

01-02-2003, 12:04

Stainless vs. Plastic, things to think about. First, stainless and aluminum will have gauling problems sometimes. Second, if you change to stainless, the week link is now the $512 assembly, not the $3.11 plastic plug. Which do you want to break? If the housing was stainless, a brass screw or stainless screw would be fine. With it being aluminum, I would stay with the plastic. Just my nerdy 0.02.

hoot

01-02-2003, 12:06

It's just a small hand tight plug that you tweek just a bit with a screw driver. I don't see any issues.

Brent - DIS

01-02-2003, 13:08

"Stainless and aluminum together are not a problem. GM used plastic because its CHEAP."

From Bill Howard Tech Support at Racor.

This unit was designed by Racor to GM specifications. The plastic vent plug is used to avoid stripping the housing. Using a harder material then what the housing is made of may lead to damage to the housing due to overtightening.

Plastic again is used because it is $3 to replace the pulg vs. the $500+ to replace the housing.

Using a softer material then the housing is common amongst all MFG's.

LanduytG

01-02-2003, 14:03

I have been in the mechanical field for over 25 years and have worked with stainless a lot. Yes stainless does have gauling problems, but not with aluminum. Stainless to stainless is a big problem, but I have never had any problems with other metals. I know people are not alike but you don't need to tighten it so tight that you stripe the threads, just run it down till it touches and then give it a tweek. This is not high pressure we are dealing with. So you are on the road and need to change the filter, its below zero (which is when I have always had to change a filter on the road)you now try to open the bleeder and it brakes. Now you have a big problem and thats not what you want when its sub zero out. I have seen plastic seize and the only alternative was to brake it to get it out. When its below zero give me a stainless screw over plastic any day.

Greg

svpdiesel

01-02-2003, 14:11

Well, if you can manage to rip 10mm threads out of an aluminum housing, using just a screwdriver, then you deserve to buy a $500 replacement...
This fitting is sealed with an O-ring, not by deforming the aluminum to conform to the fitting. All it takes is finger tight, and this presents little danger of stripping the threads.

More Power

01-02-2003, 18:21

I would add that all GM diesel fuel filter assemblies from 1984 to present use plastic air-bleed screws. I've never had a problem with any of the air-bleed screws - in nearly seventeen years of driving GM diesel pickups.

Which is better - OEM or SS? Stanadyne & Racor seem to have an opinion.

MP

Searay90

01-02-2003, 20:43

I've been around saltwater and outboard engines most of my life. Believe me when I say that Aluminum and Stainless work very well together. Stainless is the only fastner used in almost every application in an outboard motor.

I'll be ordering two of the SS vent screws when they become available. One to replace the POS plastic vent screw, and a second to keep in the glove box when Mr. Murphy calls. Mr Murphy always shows up at the worst time and makes things like small screws fall into the darkness of the engine bay never to be seen from again. He especially likes to visit late at night when it's raining and that darn flashlight battery just put out it's last bit of juice

:eek:

LanduytG

01-02-2003, 20:57

"Which is better - OEM or SS? Stanadyne & Racor seem to have an opinion."
MP

Yes they have their opinion. That does not automatically make it right. I have worked around enough engineers to know they do not always do whats right, even when they know what they are doing is wrong.

I am not taking anything away nor am I saying I know everything. Its just a difference of opinion, but I'll take stainless.

Greg

More Power

01-03-2003, 11:38

Imagine for a moment what can develop whenever two vendors discuss products in the same forum thread (especially when the messages contain negativity about their competitor's product).

What do think happens? Who gets the grief? Who tries to keep everyone happy?

This is just one reason why the TDP vendor policy for forum interaction includes a statement that says "a TDP advertiser cannot post in the same forum thread that first discusses a competitor's product".

MP

hoot

01-03-2003, 11:57

The filter manufacturers use plastic because it's cheaper to manufacture. Yes I see where they design it to be dummy proof and that's not a bad thing but why would the housing cost $500? What are we idiots? That's why we call them stealers.

Yes the plastic works well too but I know from experience that lot's of plastics don't do too well after being subjected to years of underhood torture.

Yes they have engineered plastics today that do a much better job but they still have a specified useful life before the elements finally change their properties.

In closing ;) , It's great to have choices. My 1973 Ford backhoe has a steel bleeder screw in the injection pump and the fuel filter housing. I know for sure the fuel filter housing is aluminum, is still available and probably costs less than $100 if I ever need to replace it. So there you go.... 28 years of use, always out in the weather, rain snow and hot sun and no problems.... steel in aluminum. Don't forget, there's fuel all over this stuff.

The costs they try to get for some of this stuff is almost a crime.

Thanks for having a free market and competition so we can save a few bucks and have a choice to get better parts in the process.

BTW: I don't think DIS would go broke losing a $3 sale. I also don't see any serious conflict here with these penny parts.

[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]

Inspector

01-03-2003, 12:44

Lowes has all kinds and thread sizes of plastic/nylon screws. Might be able to match one up there.
Denny

LanduytG

01-03-2003, 20:36

I might be wrong here but were is the attack on a competitor's product? It seems to me that the negativity is toward the design of a manufactures product. If that is negativity toward a competitors product then that means I am attacking myself as well. Because I have access to the very same product line. I just choose to go what I concider a better way.
Greg

JEBar

01-04-2003, 19:59

LanduytG ... Please let us know when you get the stainless vent screws ... I'll take a couple ... Jim

mackin

01-04-2003, 20:08

MMMmmmmm Stainless......

MAC ;)

Kennedy

01-04-2003, 22:01

I'd take one of the stainless units, BUT I can't for the life of me grasp WHY anyone is taking the stupid things out in the first place... :confused:

Just loosen it a bit and pump the primer till you see bubbles. Close it off and pump it up till you cannot pump it any more. In all actuality, I will never use mine again as I have a bleeder on my secondary unit that will take care of this.

Lookout, another vendor controversy! :rolleyes:

chuntag95

01-10-2003, 21:01

Hey Greg, will the SS Screw be Polished. :D
I would Have to have one then. tongue.gif

Seattle Steve

01-11-2003, 01:29

I've been told that when plastics fail, it usually indicates a poor choice was made during design. There are MANY types of plastics with greatly varying properties. Rubbermaid and Tupperware have proven long ago that the correct plastic for a given application can be a wonderful thing.

Perhaps Parker/Racor could provide a replacement made from a more resilient type of plastic?

I'm very greatful for a $5 fix rather than $500, however with a better design we wouldn't have to carry around a box of spare screws or risk damage to a $512 housing from a metal screw.

I love this site, thanks for sharing all the excellent info!

LanduytG

01-11-2003, 04:55

Screws have been sent and I should have them on Monday or Tues.

Greg

Kennedy

01-11-2003, 11:07

I believe that the failures stem from overtightening. The failure rate seems to be quite low, and possibly even lower than the "where did that confounded thing go rolling off to?" rate.

Neither one should happen in the first place. I haven't counted the threads, but I'm sure it takes more than a couple of turns to remove the screw...

My suggestion would be to carry a nut driver with a properly sized socket, and only back the screw out about 1 full turn or whatever it takes to let it breathe a little. Tighten gently, and you shouldn't have any problems.

[ 01-11-2003: Message edited by: kennedy ]

JEBar

01-15-2003, 20:43

Kennedy ... couldn't agree more with your approach but in my case, the plastic screw was never removed (only loosened during prior filter changes), the head snapped off while being loosened with a screw driver ...

By the way, ordered 2 stainless bleeder screws from Greg today ... already have 3 plastic ones on order, hope to never need another :cool: Jim

Roofer

01-15-2003, 21:07

Wow, while keeping up with this thread, I was thinking of the totally wrong part. I thought you guys were talking about the big screw on the bottom of the filter. This was the one I had trouble with(besides twisting off the filter itself). I didn't have a crescent wrench big enough for that nut.

I personally think the whole thing was a bad design. I have changed the diff fluids, oil changes, tranny filter change, and this fuel filter was the hardest and most time consuming of them all.

Searay90

01-17-2003, 11:13

Greg,

I just ordered two filters and two of your SS vent screws (good looking product by the way), but the online system said it could not calculate the shipping?

Harry

JEBar

01-18-2003, 17:37

3 replacement plastic vent screws from Diesel Injection Service arrived in today's mail ... total cost $11.33 .... thanks again More Power for making the contacts that made this possible ... thinking about going to my dealership and offering the parts man replacement screws for $250.00 each ===> that would be less than half the price he quoted me!! :cool: !! .... Jim

Dawg

01-18-2003, 18:40

Thanks More Power. As I stated earlier, my parts guy was not able to locate the screw as well. I relayed the info from DIS and he is going to get some for his shop thru them or their source. Anyway, when he gets them he said he will give me two for sharing the info.

mps007

01-26-2003, 15:58

I am thinking of changing my entire filter assembly to a 215r from Racor.
The Filters are less expensive, it has it's own Primer pump which is 2x faster then the bulb, It should mount in the same spot, Has a clear water bulb at the bottom with a self venting bleeder. 88.00 for the whole thing,
Only draw back is that I loose the water in fuel sensor... But now I can see it ..

Any input from you guys ?

http://www.go2marine.com/frameset***p?servletPath=/g2m/action/GoBPage/id/52204F/&df=3

Mike

[ 01-26-2003: Message edited by: mps007 ]