Need Prelube Start Delay for Dmax

[Gbenzx01]

ToWhomIMC,

We're a little uncomfortable with the instant start of the Dmax & need to explore the possibility of engine prelube.
Can this be done and how? Now don't send us off to WallyWorld to get that Miracle Whip or whatever. Never had a diesel that I couldn't delay the start for a few turns to oil it up before firing. For those of us concerned with long term survival of this engine the quick heat & cool issue may cost us upto 35% or more of it's life. All we have todo is talk to the TopGuns that operate delivery trucks across the country & they tell us it is the $$$$$$ of the matter why they let em run when they stop.
Especially when the temps get down & frigid this motor needs to get the oil where it's supposed to be before it's fired.
If you know abt turbine engines, the overhaul & time life components are determined not by hours but on how many starts & shutdowns.
Yes the block heater does help several things but nothing to get the oil up into some of the wearing parts.
At the Bosch pump we assume the fuel before firing is pressurized, is that correct?
Can the injectors be shut off with a spring return switch in the cab?
Upon shutdown, are the injectors closed to prevent fuel from entering the cylinder? And if so can the installed switch keep them closed while engine is being turned with ignition?
While turning the engine for prelube in this scheme will the bosch bypass enough fuel to protect the injectors from damage?
We do understand that the fuel cannot be shutoff before the pump since fuel is already in the pump at shutdown> Unless the fuel is shutoff to accomplish the previous shutdown of course. This method also may damage pump? Spinning w/o fuel I mean?
One word = All we know abt the Bosch system = Cost
However we do this it must be done very carefully.
Act Now, No reasonable offers refused!

Thanx, Gben

[Wing'n'it]

Gben,
You are correct in your observations regarding accelerating engine wear during starting and before engine oil pressure is built up. Your suggestion about delaying fuel flow through the injectors until oil pressure is built up still won't solve the problem of wear on the rotating parts (bearings and such).

I recall from some time back running across the idea of a preluber. I did a quick google search and came up with this link: http://www.autoenginelube.com/pages/903473/index.htm.

The idea here is to store oil under pressure during normal operation in an accumulator. Prior to engine rotation at the next start a solenoid is opened that allows the accumulator to release the pressurized oil through the normal oil passages. It only takes a moment to have adequate oil pressure built up to allow engine rotation in the start sequence and minimize (eliminate?) the greatest source of engine wear.

Hope this helps you. I really wouldn't think it's an issue in FL, even in the winter. But if you lived 2000 miles further north, it could be a major concern.

BTW, the time between overhaul (TBO) for a jet engine is determined only by hours, typically 3000 hours or more. Replacement of rotating components, compressor wheels and turbine disks is done on a cycle basis (start, run to takeoff power, shutdown = one cycle). Compressor wheels can be limited to 10,000 cycles and turbine disks 5,000 cycles before they are scrapped. Temperature cycling is the big turbine killer.

IMHO we probably do more damage to our engines (turbos) by running hard for 2 - 3 hours then quickly shutting down for a pee stop without letting the EGTs stabilize, than the increased wear brought about by dry starts.

Cheers,
Mike

[Gbenzx01]

Thanx Wing n it,
We explored your referral & looks something like promising with Dmax mounts & all but will first look for something maybe $9 or $19 instead of $179 if I may.
DP's Modified brought to us a HiIdle simple wire that if installed correctly works perfect with the cruise control for abt $18. This was after I quiz the dealer that said, somewhere around $350!
Now if I could just teach our Dmax to stay in Fla! But it keeps trying to get up in this world by going up into the mtns all the time.
The Cummins pickup we had, Had did this same instant start stuff & dealer said nothing could be done. But 1 little wire & a switch did the trick by shutting off the induction heat coil until it turned over a few times.
Now if our Dmax's do have an engine driven oil pump you mean it does not shoot oil thru the oil passages & jets when turned? Especially with it's high pressure one would thimk it tobe instant if not sooner. And thanx very much for the tips.

Modified,
Not gettin much help here from the HigherUps, looks like may have to goit alone again sense they thimk we're gonna blow the thing up. We'll not to say it can't happen but I've been blown up with dynamite on trains twice & still here, thank you>>>>

Thanx, Gben

[dmaxalliTech]

I have seen the preluber system, good idea but pricey. But its cheaper then an engine I guess.
As far a disabling fuel injectors momentarily, thats easy, You just need to cut power to the ign 1 relay in the underhood fuse block, no relay, no start, that controls the injectors. you could tap into one of the power wires leading to it, splice in a momentary switch that is open with switch depressed and bam. However, you MAY end up setting a dtc, MAY not, but beware of possibility.

[Gbenzx01]

Thanx dmaxalliTech,
We did Roberts Express for several years & Detroit was a regular, GR also many many times. Last visit to GR I think was winter 99 with wind abt 50mph & temps blo 0 but always people good to work with, nice laid out city & a pretty place with the rolling land....could go on&on.
Reading posts like yours & other top dealership people here at DP makes one wonder how other dealers(all brands) can drop the ball, ignore their costumer & many times go out of business.
Fri FoxNet tells us that income for Mfrs is off by as much as 30%. Will I help by demo my Dmax for my friend? Yes because my service mgr listens when I speak then does their very best. It is so simple & yet some still just don't get it.
Anyway we will test ign 1 when the truck gets back from NC & this would appear tobe simplist way to go. We may use emergency brake switch if it turns out ok to avoid another switch install although there are folks that simply like switches. I hear you abt codes but does the pressure sensor or reglator tell the injectors to open? Or what does? And is it done with a pulse type signal or just on/off? Will prefer a pin type plugin to either module to accomplish this if possible but will splice if need be.
Thnxsomuch,

Gben

[LanduytG]

Cranking the engine without it firing is just as hard on it. You still do not have oil following very well. Just buy a preluber and be done with it. I have one on my 6.5 and love it. Turn on the key and the preluber starts. As soon as I get oil pressure which takes about 3 seconds I start it. On shut down the preluber starts and will run up to 5 mins if adjusted that way.

Greg

[a64pilot]

Cranking the engine without it firing is just as hard on it I agree, how much does a starter for a Dmax cost anyway.
On mine it dosen't start as quickly as any other diesel I've owned. It acts like it has to build fuel pressure before it starts or something.

[Gbenzx01]

Thanx Greg,
Must agree, turning the engine w/o oil is almost as detrimental as running w/o oil sense they are still coming up on compression. Now let's see here, what tells the valves, no just kiddn a little.....
But what you have on your 6.5 is also assisting in the quick cool scheme by keeping oil flowing after the shutdown. Does it come with it's own tank/pump etc, your own design? Would like to know more abt this one, Email if you like if you have them or right here for others to also see,Thanx

a64,
Has the slow start been there right along or has it got slower? Of all the ones I've been around haven't seen what you've described as slow to start unless it's progressive like Sdave wound up with. Our JD Gator was the quickest starting thing we ever had until the Dmax & just think abt touching the key & it's gone, not even a full turn & it's fired. This is big reason i'm pursueing the prelube. As in NC mtns at 20* abt 1 & 1/2 turns is all you get.
And Thanx a64, want to get back to Ft Rucker & make the museum one day asap maybe!
No wait, does this thing have a heater or heat coil in the air induction system somewhere?

Thanx Guys, Gben

[dmaxalliTech]

Originally posted by a64pilot:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Cranking the engine without it firing is just as hard on it I agree, how much does a starter for a Dmax cost anyway.
On mine it dosen't start as quickly as any other diesel I've owned. It acts like it has to build fuel pressure before it starts or something. </font>[/QUOTE]Last I checked, the listed for about 5 bills,actual cost would depend on dealer.. Might better get it checked out for that delay start deal, Sounds like Sdavers problem...

Gben, I was thinking, you dont need a preluber, just go down to the local autozone and check out there chemical wall, there are things on there that will do anything, just read the labels!! :rolleyes:

I think if you got the bottle with the red label, that would help your hard start, the blue bottle with the green label will help your gas mileage, the white bottle with the "as seen on tv" sticker on the front will be like your engine has ball bearings in it, the yellow bottle over to the corner will smooth your idle out and lastly, the bottle way down on the bottom shelf, that will make your brake lights brighter :D

As far as your Q, there is an intake air heater, its located in the turbo ducting right on top of the engine.

[kerry witherspoon]

If you want a preluber check out sources such a cesna,used on many aircraft.They are a great idea and work well if installed right and you get what you pay for the old adeage pay me now or latter,i spend a few dollars first for good quality ,and not a lot for repairs.

[Gbenzx01]

Thanx dmaxalliTech,
For the good laughs outa that one!
I really needed that this night because so far I've had to check 5 bank accounts for 3 people, send 3 dictated emails for daughter & granbaby & not tobe outdone son comes up with, dad have you got time to look up that thing that was on foxnews last week......? Why? Mind you they all have INets too, but one fine day......
But I would bet that sumbody has most likely picked the one that said, as seen on tv & poured it into a Dmax engine. Quote my dad once more when he would say, Glad he & I went to 2 different schools.
And thanx for your answer abt the heater element.

Thanx, Gben

[Gbenzx01]

Thanx Kerry,
For the good tip abt the aircraft prelubes.
Have been away from flying for a while & did not even give them a thought. Pay now or more later is right on & as prices of these machines go higher folks are seaching more for ways to increase longevity & the inherent value. We've been with synthetics since 1959 when I cranked up my first turbine engine & learned abt this new oil. When we advertised the 99 Sierra with 90k mi the ad included a note abt Mobil 1 oil. The 2nd person to call said he didn't care abt the mileage if we used synthetics. We walked around the truck, I opened the hood & offered to chk the oil for him. He saw caution sticker abt the oil & said he didn't need it & replied, I'll take the truck. It will not be long before people will be asking if we're using a prelube system & to see the oil sample records. And I understand those that just simply won't be bothered with such. Those folks probly have plenty of $$$ to buy a new one when it gets dirty & we need more not less of them for it helps me maybe buy at less $.
However, we buy no preowned vehicle w/o doing our own oil sample, be surprised what you will find.

Thanx Kerry, Gben

[ 07-22-2003, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Gbenzx01 ]

[DrL30047]

Call ESP Products at (610)970-8944. They sell the Pre-Luber. http://www.espperformance.com/

I have had Pre-Lubers on all my trucks since 1994. Love them!

[ 07-22-2003, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: DrL30047 ]

[jbplock]

Hmmm... and I just told my wife I was done doing mods to the truck ....

[ratlover]

I have a moroso 3 quart "oil accumulator" Its set up so you can put a electric sylinoid in it and close the valve before shut down and retain pressure and open it and send 3 quarts under what ever pressure you closed the valve at into your motor.

Its new in the box and I have the aluminum mounting kit.....I was going to put it on my BBC but havent had a chance to get my velle on the road....I might let it go for cheap and then you just need to come up with the sylinoid.

[a64pilot]

Gben,
It's been slow to start since day one. I fact many people have commented on the same thing on this board, I thought it was normal. Hasen't gotten worse with time. Has to turn I think about 3 or 4 revs, about a full second before starting. I used to relase the key prematurely alot until I got used to it.

[chuntag95]

Originally posted by jbplock:
Hmmm... and I just told my wife I was done doing mods to the truck .... Me too :( If you find a good line for the wife, please share. :D

Bill, maybe we can make our own for cheaper. You need a pump, a timer, a switch, hmmmmmm........

[Gbenzx01]

Thnx Guys,

DrL & Phillip,
Checked out esp & found $450 for their unit but says something abt 425 for members = much more than I will put into this scheme, yet.
And Plillip the other thing is a place to put anything in the engine compartment. Have to consider also hoses & leaks, relocating sensor, wires & place for solenoid, etc.
Remember when exploring this for the other brand diesel p/u found one I thimk was like $1750. And my little beancounter may be like,

Bill & Chuntag,
when she announced, if the truck was not finished why did you buy the thing. But she did hush when I said $3-$5k or so is nothing when compared to the cost of a Mack or Kenworth!

But a64Pilot,
really has the good thing sense he has just a few turns before firing & if ours can be taught to do this just like the big Cat, Cummins & Detroits in the otr trucks that come new with this feature to start with. Our Cummins ISM, 450hoss even came with the after lube in case you shut down to soon.
But then in most of those trucks you have more instruments to tell what is what.
Me thimks webe ok with just a wire & switch to accomplish the simple start delay. If the truck has been off for only 1 hour in 100* weather I may only hold it for 3-5 revs but if off for 12 hours @ 0* I may need 10 revs before I turn it loose. If it has been run hard just have to remember when pulling 20-30klbs :confused: can't dive off the Istate into parking lot & kill it before the wheels stop turning!

Thanx, Gben

[Lawnboy]

Just my opinion here, but I would think that you'd want an engine to start and run at high idle as FAST as possible to spin it fast enough to get adequate oil pressure. At crank speed (3-400 rpm?) it isn't enough to generate enough psi to properly lube the entire engine, is it? I would think the quicker you can get it to fire and run at 1200 rpm or so, the better!

Greg Landuyt has the hot setup, and would be my choice if I were as concerned as Gbenzx01 is about startup wear.

Starters aren't designed to operate more than a few seconds anyway.

I think were making a mountain out of a mole hill here! Its the short stop and starts that will shorten an engines life more than anything.

Just my $0.02

:rolleyes:

[Gbenzx01]

Lawn Boy,
Appreciate your interest in our effort & agree at least in part with your estimates including, Greg likely has very good set up. I may just wind up with that setup but I still need to shake the bushes a little more if I may.
Sorry I have to requalify every time but I have too operated Lawn Mowers(more than I liked) & also operated trains weighing 30000tons & needing more than 25000hp to get upto 60mph.
If you read post above it is clear that yes I am looking for a Mole Hill(wire & switch) to help save on the Mountain($50000 truck).
So without the doitall jackinthebox deal I must turn all my engines slow(to avoid the grinder effect) until the oil gets there. Turning the engines faster like 1000rpm may mean we'll multiply the grinding by numbers yet unknown.
We have run engines like Cat to more than 10000hrs & some of the high HP diesels go even beyond that in some applications. How did they get there? But it's not for everybody.
Thanx Tom, no rush, a while to winter yet...

Gben

BTW, I hate to patch anything don't you?
Someone may have already said it but I'll say it too, all engines & especially diesel engines turn into a very different Animal when they fire. Thats all, Thnx

[ 07-22-2003, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Gbenzx01 ]

[LanduytG]

If anyone wants the ESP unit let me know, I get get them cheaper than list price. I mounted mine on the frame just behind the oil pan. I put it in when I over hualed the engine this past spring. It will bring the oil pressure up in a couple seconds. By the time the glow plug light goes out you have plentyof oil pressure. Works great when changing oil too, just turn on the switch and let it fill the filters.

Greg

[Gbenzx01]

OH, MODIFIED, Where Are You?

Just wanted to lift it once more to see if Modified had dropped in maybe & to bring more attention to the ESP system that some may have missed on the first pass.

I was/am aware that my initial shout could not be answered simply nor easily. Even with all the charts at hand it might take hours to find a safe & workable conclusion. Not very many people with both the talent & the time to invest.
Looking more like ESP for me all the time!

Thanx, Gben

[MaxACL]

12V pumps at your Tractor Supply Store $89
Misc hoses, clamps and wires $10
Holding your thumb on the switch while the pump runs. Priceless
;)

[ccds]

I found this pre-lube kit for your information:

http://www.prelube.com/powrlube500.html

smile.gif

[afp]

If you are using good oil and keep it clean--like with the Amsoil bypass filter system, isn't that enough? Doesn't good oil protect the engine for the few sec it runs each time it starts until oil pressue builds? How do we explain all the commercial trucks that have run 500,000 miles with just good clean oil? With all the engines I have taken down, I have never found one that was dry inside--there is always a light coating of oil on the bearings and in the cylinder bores.

Blaine

[Gbenzx01]

MaxACL,
Thanx for the info & I can appreciate, thumb on switch is priceless.
Also had to read again abt your 52000gal aux tank in the signature. KC10 or rail tankers my guess?

ccds,
Thanx for the referral, looks like along the lines of what Greg is talking abt & some pretty good info togo with it.

afp,
The whole idea is to begin the lube cycle before an engine fires up & slow down the wear scheme as much as possible to extend engine life.
Just as you say, engines still doing the job beyond a half million miles & those generally have a lot less starts & shutdowns. If our Dmax engines have just a little help I see no reason they will not endure beyond said mileage.
You can find lots of info with search at, TDR, DieselStop, PUTC, & here on DP. However, may need to use, preoil, preoiler, prelube, preluber as well as start delay & other search media that may be appropriate.

Thanx Guys, Gben

[MaxACL]

Gben,

A KC-10 with 52,000 gallons of fuel doing .89 mach with half a dozen chicks behind you while over bad real estate... Now, that's priceless not to mention the pulling of the pucker string. :D

Mike

PS I'll be rigging a thumb switch into my system soon. Anyone know of hidden potholes to look out for?

[jeephauler]

Has anyone tried an accumulator type of pre-luber? It would be much simpler to install, and no pump to fail. Ran across this in Eastwood Catalog.

http://tinyurl.com/lbxg

and

http://www.masterlube.net/

[NWDmax]

a64pilot
Member # 5094 posted 07-22-2003 07:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gben,
It's been slow to start since day one. I fact many people have commented on the same thing on this board, I thought it was normal. Hasen't gotten worse with time. Has to turn I think about 3 or 4 revs, about a full second before starting. I used to relase the key prematurely alot until I got used to it.

A64:My 01 is slow to start exactly like yours.
Still release the key prematurely once in a while.
Guess its normal. :eek:

[GSXRTURBO1]

Originally posted by ratlover:
I have a moroso 3 quart "oil accumulator" Its set up so you can put a electric sylinoid in it and close the valve before shut down and retain pressure and open it and send 3 quarts under what ever pressure you closed the valve at into your motor.

Its new in the box and I have the aluminum mounting kit.....I was going to put it on my BBC but havent had a chance to get my velle on the road....I might let it go for cheap and then you just need to come up with the sylinoid. I'm interested.

[SoCalDMAX]

Originally posted by jbplock:
Hmmm... and I just told my wife I was done doing mods to the truck .... ROTFLMAO! What was her response?

:rolleyes: "Yeah right..."
:eek: "Step away from the crack pipe!"
:confused: "Did the doctor say something that you need to tell me?"
redface.gif "Who do you think you're trying to kid with that story!"
tongue.gif "Sure honey. Now let's go down to the jewelry store..."
:confused: "Why? Did somebody just steal it?"

Come on Bill, nothing is ever "finished" for guys like us... we just take short breaks between projects! I hadn't really given much thought to startup/shutdown wear, but considering how long I want to keep this thing, turbo temps, startup wear, oiling, etc, this preluber idea is starting to look attractive.

AArrrggg! I've gotta stop reading!!! ;)

Regards, Steve