Can this be right?? Copper at 964ppm!

[jbplock]

I just got the results from two oil samples sent in for analysis – one to Oil Analyzers - one to Oil Guard. Oil Analyzers reports CU at 964ppm :eek: but OilGuard says 30ppm. :confused: Normally I wouldn’t be sending two samples but the OilGuard Bypass filter came with a free kit and I already had some Oil Analyzer kits. Other key parameters, FE and SI ppm are also quite different as follows:

Parameter, OA, OG
COPPER, 964, 30
SILICON, 8, 22
IRON, 34, 14
CHROMIUM, 1, 3
LEAD, 3, 8
TIN, 0, 2
ALUMINUM, 4, 4
NICKEL, 0, NT
SILVER, 0, NT
BORON, 6, NT
SODIUM, 0, 7
MAGNESIUM, 116, NT
CALCIUM, 3614, NT
BARIUM, 0, NT
PHOSPHORUS, 1209, NT
ZINC, 1309, NT
MOLYBDENUM, 0, NT
TITANIUM, 0, NT
VANADIUM, 0, NT
POTASIUM, 0, 4
FUEL %, <1, NT
VIS@100C, 14.07, 15.5
WATER %, 0, <0.1
SOOT/SOLIDS %, 0.1, <0.1
GLYCOL, NEG, NEG
TBN, 9.11, 8.7
OXIDATION, 7, NT
NITRATION, 5, NT
F-SOOT, 0.01, NT

NT - Not tested

These samples were taken with 9393 miles on the truck and 4362 miles on the oil. Oil was AMSOIL 15w40 synthetic. Prior to this I had changed the oil at 1kmi, 2kmi and 3kmi with DELO 15w40. I sent a sample to OilAnalyzers from the 3kmi Delo change. Cu was 24ppm, Si 22ppm and Fe 9ppm. At the 3kmi change I put in AMSOIL 15w40. At 5k I installed an OilGuard Bypass filter and refilled with fresh AMSOIL 15w40. Oil samples were taken mid stream while draining.

If had only sent a sample to Oil Analyzers I would REALLY be worried. :eek: Anyone have any thoughts on why there is such a difference between the reports on the same oil sent to two different test houses?
George? Is this common? Is there a certification process for Oil Test Houses? I’m thinking about doing double samples for a while until I get correlation in the results.

Hmmm… Wait a minute :rolleyes: … this is getting expensive - even for the ultra-anal… Synthetic oil, dual tests, bypass filter and three fuel filters... :D

[ 07-13-2003, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: jbplock ]

[Bigwheel]

Bill,
I'm using Amsoil 1540 Marine Synthetic also, and I'm wondering if you used a Amsoil Test Kit, since I'm a dealer, I buy them for under $20 bucks, and Amsoil does the testing. When I bought my truck, it came with Rotella, I ran that for 1800 miles, had it changed once, they used Rotella, then ran that till 4500 miles, then installed Amsoil 1540 Marine and now it has 9950 miles on her. Last week I sent in a sample of my oil to Amsoil, since I'm using their oil, they stand by their oil, I think they should be testing their oil. I will post the results after I get them in, never heard copper being found. ??? Thanks for the info!. :eek: :rolleyes: :confused:

[GMCTRUCK]

You want your oil analysis done by a neutral party. Like Caterpillar for instance. Not the company you buy your oil from. It's better that the party testing your oil is looking out for your engine and not their own hide.

[OC_DMAX]

Bill,

Surprised at the number of parameters that the Oil Guard analysis does not test (NT). You may want to go to the "theoildrop" server and try posting this over there. See what the experts say! Maybe there was just a mix-up (typo, wrong sample, etc) or some other form of contamination. I would probable run another 1k miles and sample again using another company (assuming you changed oil or immediately if you did not). Seems to be a number of inconsistencies between the two. Another thought (on edit): is this the first time that you have taken a sample since you plumbed in your bypass system?

I have been using the kits from Avlube with good results (they do TBN now).

Alan

[ 07-13-2003, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: OC_DMAX ]

[george morrison]

Regarding "You want your oil analysis done by a neutral party. Like Caterpillar for instance". There are many missing, important parameters missing for CAT SOS also. CAT does NOT report fuel dilution when it is less than 5%. In our Duramax, a 2% or 3% fuel dilution can catch a bad injector before damage is done. Likewise for oil viscosity. CAT SOS only checks vis at room temperature, and not via ASTM standards.. Just too much valuable information is missing.
Likewise, Amsoil's lab is no longer running their own analyhsis. They have farmed out the analysis to Cleveland Tech. Not quite the personal caring service it once was.
Re: the high copper. Very likely a typo.. Nothing corresponds to the super high copper. I am sure they would do a re-run and confirm the results for you.
George

[LanduytG]

Bill
Call Dan at 715-365-0222 and let him know what you have. I am sure they will rerun the sample just to make sure.

As for Oil Guard and what they don't test does not surprise me at all. They are not in the oil testing business and are most likely using a hand held instrument that is not capable of doing whats needed.

If copper was that high I would think the lead would be high as well and iron as well.

I have a hand full of OA test kits left and once they are gone I will be using AV Lube kits only. As George stated the personal touch is not their with OA anymore. Plus the OA kit is $19 and AV is cheaper and turn around time is much better as well. As you all know I am also and Amsoil dealer but I am also going to use what I think is best for my customers and myself.

Greg

[a bear]

Bill,
FYI - This was the results of my before and after Oil Guard Filter samples that I posted on 6/11/03. I have Mobil Delvac 1300 in the base now for a comparison of the oil properties then will choose which I will stick with. I will be sticking with the dino because I don't extend my change intervals and my oil temps are always within a safe margin. My main objective was to keep the wear particles at a safe size.

First sample W/ Chev Delo 400 15w/40 and 4931 Mi. on oil.
Second sample w/ same oil and 5380 Mi. on oil w/ bypass filter installed. Not a significant difference in wear metals and contaminant PPMs but a noticable increase in the add pack.

FIRST SECOND w/bypass filt.
CU-11-------9
FE-5--------5
CR-0--------0
PB-3--------4
AL-3--------3
SI-9--------12
MO-0--------1
NA-6--------5
SN-3--------4
CA-3600-----4090
MG-17-------37
P-1240------1380
ZN-1340-----1600

[jbplock]

Thanks everyone for the feedback! :D

Answers to questions/comments:

- BigWheel: The OA kit is the one AMSOIL sells (I bought a bunch at $14 each when I was a dealer)
- OC_Dmax: The oil sample(s) were the first taken after the Oil Guard Install.
- George/Greg: Thanks! I'll call Dan regarding a retest.

Also, it's interesting to note the recommendation on the OA report for the high copper which is as follows:

"Copper level has increased since last sample (it was 24ppm w/1000 miles on DELO). Note: Copper Level is High - Possible from normal engine break-in. Copper Level is High - Possibly from lube oil cooler. Recommend resample at next interval"

This seems like a "canned" response. I wonder if it's canned for High CU in general or just for the Duramax (?) I remember reading that initially high copper is not unusual for the Duramax. Anyone know the exact source? Is the Oil Cooler heat exchanger (that's part of the Oil Filter adapter) made from copper?

I think I'll do another sample at about 3kmiles. I'm currently running Rotella 5w40 Synthetic and have enough for another change before I switch to DELVAC-1. I couldn't resist buying the Rotella when Wal-Mart was raising the price last Fall - I felt like I was getting a last minute bargain. I have also noticed that the oil pressure is a few psi lower when hot with Rotella 5w40 as compared to the Amsoil 15w40 AME.
smile.gif

[Trip]

A family member did on oil analysis early on for a 6.2, and it had extremely high copper. The rumor was that GM was using a lube with a high copper content in putting together the bottom end. They (testing lab) suggested to test after break-in. Take this with a grain of salt as it's just another 2 cents worth. smile.gif

[a bear]

I often wondered what a sample of new oil in the bottle would read. I would think it would show a certain PPM of metals from the refining process.

[Professor]

A bear

Quite a few virgin oil samples are available at bobistheoilguy.com
Virgin Oil Analyis Forum (http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=11)

Your oil may be listed.

[Professor]

Bill,

I think the Copper result on the first test may be flawed.

I have read many OA reports on newer GMs. It seems quite a few are high in copper. It is not limited to the trucks. There seems to be quite a bit of high copper showing up in the LS1 series engines as well as others. The OA on my 6 liter was flagged on the two OA reports I have sent in. If it makes you feel better, mine is at 30 with 7650 miles on the oil. It had 25 @ 3400 miles. We

[a bear]

Good information
Thanks

[jbplock]

Professor,
I echo Tommy's thanks for the good info! :D

I also received a call from Mark Meddock at Oil Guard. He said he double-checked my CU results and offered me a retest. He also said their test system does have the capability to test the parameters I listed as NT (not tested) above. He said they choose to report on the additive pack by using the TBN value. If anyone has questions regarding the Oil Guard bypass or test kits I would encourage them to call Mark.
smile.gif

[jbplock]

Update:

Per Greg's suggestion I talked to Dan at Oil Analyzers who impressed me as very knowledgeable about oil analysis (it's not too hard to impress me since I know very little :eek: ) Seriously, Dan was very helpful, and while I can't really articulate or totally understand everything he said, the net of our conversation was that he felt the difference in reported CU levels was probably due to different particle detection thresholds between the two tests/methods. He said that copper in the oil could be the result of electrolysis of exposed CU in the engine (possibly from the oil cooler). Additives in the oil can be the catalyst for the electrolysis, which will stop after an oxide coating forms on the copper. He said the process OAI uses would detect sub micron copper while other some other processes may only detect larger size particles. This could explain the difference. Made sense to me.

smile.gif