What is involved in a Class Action Lawsuit vs. GM?

[Alli-max]

Well, i got my truck back today, after being in the dealership since the end of May. Looks like it WAS the head gasket, as the low coolant light has not come on in about 150 miles. (It usually shows in about 10 miles or so.)

I see lots of posts concerning the DexCool Antifreeze and our head gaskets. Is the coolant eating away the seal? Who knows, but I think if it IS, then something needs to be done. I didnt buy a diesel truck to have MAJOR engine problems at 119,000 miles. This ticket cost me over $2200 after all was said and done. I've had gassers with fewer problems. I specifically bought this truck to go 250,000 miles, and to tell you the truth, if I get 175K I would be happy now.

How does one go about getting this kind of thing started? I am not talking about hiring a back page in the phone book lawyer, but how do I GET PROOF on this?

[More Power]

GM began using Dex-Cool in their 6.5L diesel engines beginning in the late 1995 model year. I have no reports from anyone with a damaged 6.5 or Duramax engine or cooling system as a direct result of using Dex-Cool.

Have you sought help offline?

MP

[ 07-14-2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: More Power ]

[george morrison]

As indicated, there is a current class action lawsuit naming General Motors/Dexcool as cause for a significant number of engine/coolant problems/failures. As for Dexcool issues in 6.5's, I for one had head gasket problems on my 6.5TD. I was #6 waiting in line at the dealership: all for head gasket repair. I work with a construction company that has 200+ 6.5TD's and over 30% of the fleet has had head gasket problems at least once. They have discontinued the use of Dexcool and are using pre-charged ethelyne glycol.
My personal thoughts are that Dexcool is an excellent coolant for a manufacturer to use to ensure minimal coolant related problems during warranty... However, for the long term.....

[More Power]

The problem with 6.5 head gaskets is directly related to the factory 21.5:1 compression ratio.

During the 2001 Rendezvous in Ohio, Matt Koning, CEO of Peninsular Diesel told all of us during a seminar that Peninsular had never replaced a head gasket on any of their 18:1 compression ratio marine 6.5L engines - not a single one in 10 years of 6.5 marine engine production.

Through the years, I haven't been able to discern any difference in 6.5 head gasket reliability for engines built prior to or since the introduction of Texaco/Havoline Dex-Cool. If I could identify a Dex relationship to head gasket failure, I'd be among the first to announce it (along with facts if they existed).

What I'd like to see are engineering studies supporting the basis for the class action, and some sort of info saying all Duramax's are also likely to suffer. Till then, there's not enough information to incite mass hysteria. Our own experience with Dex suggests there's no problem.

MP

[Oongawah]

MP,

Does that marine engine use dex-cool, or marine water?

[pontiac_m18]

HI ALLI-MAX & I see that your "baby" was built at my plant! Send me a e-mail with #, so we can talk. Howard = howard_m18@yahoo.com :D :D :D

[Alli-max]

Have I sought help offline???

As in from a lawyer? No. Believe me, I am not trying to stir things up with GM. I just see many $40,000+ truck owners not getting their money's worth, thats all. For 6 months now I have been getting the run around, from the dealer level to the GM customer service. Point is, I am still out $2200. Is this normal for all the members on this site to have head gasket problems? What about the owners that ARE NOT on this site?

I had a hard time laying that kind of cash down for a truck. The reason was for its longivity, and that is the reason why I justified it. I picked my truck up today, and have already spent a little over $1300 for services rendered. Tomorrow, I will write a check for another $900+. Is this the real life of a diesel truck? Less than 120,000 miles? I'm sorry Jim, but i am a little upset right now. Loke at the first two pages on the 6600 page right now. Problems. If GM is watching, why arent they doing anything? Thats right, because they dont have to. :(

[MountainMax]

To Have a "class action" suit you must first have enough plaintiff's that the court certifies the case to class action status. If anything becomes class action status in the future, it would probably be a suit against all three manufacturers and Bosch on the injector issues. If it turns out in the future that the injectors on all Bosch injected diesels tend to fail prematurely due to the particulate matter in american fuel AND the manufacturers were aware of it as well as Bosch, and they chose to bring it to market anyway because the majority wouldn't fail until after the warranty expired. There might be a case. The problem is proving they knew of the problem. Their defense would be that the product is not defective (look how well it works in europe) but it's the diesel thats defective.
Anyway, in the long run, if the injectors do fail because of particulate matter, the mfgs will either develop a filter system of their own, or a class action suit will be eventually filed. They won't be able to deny "no Knowledge" of the problem after the postings here and other BBs.

[More Power]

Alli,

"Sought help offline". Let's make this a little clearer....

Have you sent a personal email message or called any TDP administrators seeking help with your truck's problem before posting scary messages in the forum?

Oongawah,

The Peninsular marine engines all use a closed cooling system using conventional coolant. I don't know what coolant they are using, but I do know the pre-Dex "on-road" 6.5's experience head gasket problems at about the same frequency as post-Dex engines.

As far as blaming Dmax head gasket leaks on Dex - that is far less believable than considering the relationship between performance enhancing products and head gasket leaks.

If 8 or 9 head gasket leaks out of ten occurred with engines having power boxes of some sort, wouldn't that indicate some sort of causality?

Here's what a copper/brass/soldered GM diesel radiator core looks like after 135,000 miles of running Prestone green.

http://www.thedieselpage.com/images/radcore.jpg

A new radiator installed 115,000 miles ago along with 50% Dex-Cool and 50% distilled water still looks perfect. I'd have to be beaten into submission before switching back to the green crap after seeing the inside of the above radiator and the engine it cooled. Aside from the radiator, all of the coolant containing gaskets used in this engine were significantly deteriorated. I'm surprised more people aren't up in arms over the green stuff.

MP

[ 07-08-2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: More Power ]

[Big Tow]

The big problem I have with class action suits is that the only real benefactors are the lawyers. They will win millions and you will get peanuts.

My '01 D/A made two trips to the dealer just prior to 100k miles. I traded it off fearing just what you have experienced, a big ticket repair out of warranty.

[hoot]

Originally posted by Big Tow:
The big problem I have with class action suits is that the only real benefactors are the lawyers. They will win millions and you will get peanuts.

My '01 D/A made two trips to the dealer just prior to 100k miles. I traded it off fearing just what you have experienced, a big ticket repair out of warranty. Big Toe ;)

You run all three brands and traded an 01 Dmax on an 03 Dmax. You must like the Dmax somewhat.

[Alli-max]

Have you sent a personal email message or called any TDP administrators seeking help with your truck's problem before posting scary messages in the forum?
With all due respect to you Jim, and the admins, how are they going to help me get my $2200 back? it is just frustrating. I told the service dept to even put the bad injector back in because they are so expensive. I am sure another one will go out soon enough. :(

[hoot]

BIG QUESTION.....

Why does one Dmax injector cost so much compared to the 03 Cummins..... both Bosch HPCR.

Lower repair costs can be quite appealing.

[Big Tow]

Hoot, Actually the story goes a little differently than that. I bought the '03 Dmax before I traded the '01 Dmax on a Dodge. Still, for the most part the '01 treatred me pretty darn good. It hauled me cross country with my various toys more than once. It pulled my truck and trailer (over 7000lbs worth) over I-70s mtns at 70 mph with just a hint of smoke.

I find the Chev to be the most comfortable, best appointed of the three. For the hardcore work, I really, really like the '03 Dodges. There is no way they are as nice to live with as my wifes '03 Dmax though.

[a bear]

That radiator looks like it has the case of the hard water (mineral build up). A destroyer of a cooling systems metals and seals. The water we add is 40 to 50 % of our cooling system capacity and should also be considered. I once asked a dealership what kind of water they use when servicing cooling systems and was shocked to hear TAP.
I'm not sure what is used from the factory but I take no chances and drain all my vehicles stock cooling system and fill with 40-50% DISTILLED water. My radiators with high miles are always 100% clean. Knock on wood - I have never had a cooling system problem using the orange, green or pink fluids. Also if you are adding water due to a bad cap small leak etc. as the hard water evaporates the corrosive, abrasive stuff stays.

[oyazi]

Agreed, the pix looks like the radiator of my plymouth that I was using well water w/100% disolved minerals. That was 30yrs ago ~ have been using steam distilled water in all our cooling systems since.

[george morrison]

Also agreed. Had the engine been serviced with diesel HD ethylene glycol AND distilled water, the results would have been much different for that radiator... The buildup shown in the radiator is NOT the result of ethylene glycol but of using city/hard water.. Moreover Jim, I have a photo of a radiator that looks much worse than that which used Dexcool With de-ionized water: the radiator contained about 3 pounds of solid material as yet undetermined origin...
Moreover, if a cooling system is properly maintained (proper SCA level and the use of de-ionized water), diesel grade ethylene glycol will provide hundreds of thousands of miles/tens of thousands hours of service in diesel engines with excellent results.
Dexcool is answering questions that I really do not know who was asking.....
George

[More Power]

That radiator came out of what (in 1999) would become the 6.5TD Project truck. The engine and cooling system were pulled just a couple months after buying the truck.

Because the complete cooling system, all hoses and the engine were being replaced, it was a simple matter to flush the heater core with distilled water, and pour in a 50/50 Dex-Cool/distilled water mix.

According to info I have, there are several different chemistries used for auto coolant that can appear as pink or orange or red. They are not compatible with one another. Europe has theirs, Japan has theirs, Chrysler Corp has theirs, and Texaco/Havoline has theirs. If someone topped off a 6.5 or Duramax cooling system with a non-compatible coolant, consequences could result. I always carry a gallon of Texaco/Havoline Dex-Cool with me whenever I travel, because of this possibility.

If Dex-Cool created an endemic problem with the 6.5 and Duramax engines, we'd be well versed in the science and chemistry behind it (by the shear volume of email and phone calls). Other than you George, in the nearly eight year history of The Diesel Page, I've not heard of a problem with Dex-Cool.

MP

[ 07-10-2003, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: More Power ]

[a bear]

I also would bet that a large percentage of the cooling system problems are indeed related to mixing incompatible products by not knowing better and using what's available. If I was going to switch products I would definitely do a tripple flush. I can't say which product is better but I always like to stay with the one that is recommended so as to keep the blame for any problems in the other corner.

[BigO]

I was informed that Dex Cool is also known to get dirty easier. I have a fried that had to have his dex cool changed out at 40,000 because it was turning colors and had dirt in it. Apparently it collects dust easier then the green stuff.

[britannic]

I was informed that Dex Cool is also known to get dirty easier. I have a fried that had to have his dex cool changed out at 40,000 because it was turning colors and had dirt in it. Apparently it collects dust easier then the green stuff.Big O: How does the dust get in to the system?

[oyazi]

Casting sand perhaps? By-product from corroding/eroding gaskets materials?

I recall, as a child, being enchanted by the chrome gascap of Dads thirty something Hudson. Thinking this was circa 47 or 48. It had special latching arrangement that I loved to play with. I would spend many enjoyable hours putting handfuls of dirt into it. I think I was 4 yrs old. Anyway, a few yrs ago, just prior to his passing, I was recounting this experience to Dad and he was really upset :eek: ~ after 50 yrs :confused: Glad I didn't fess up way back then.

Point being Dirt Happens ;)